Light vs Dark - SBVA

[090901]

I TRIED SO HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD

[Baconus_Yum]

I am tempted to just start voting now, because I don't know if any grudge matches are being done, and the tourney is basically over unless a miracle happens.

[Mr. AS]

Shoutout to my boys 09 and LRA2 for giving me a good laff

[Gulden]

Can Dragoon Fight against 3 bots and win?

In short, no.
In long, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Team Light, after being at a handicap early, wins LvD in anticlimactic fashion, but a win is a win.
But a rematch is in order right?  Maybe some day.

And to those who say the AI was F*cked up, I sent him the AI and he approved.

We'll do future events in this order.

Team Rumble
Free for all Rumble
Voting for grudge matches (1 per person)
Grudge matches
Awards

For now, the Team Rumble. 
The 2 captains will give me the order of all 8 robots on their teams.  The robots will fight in a 2v2 battle.
Once 2 robots from one team are out, the incapacitated robots will be replaced (Including the ones that were eliminated on the winning teams) with the next robots in the line-up.

[NeonCalypso]

It's my first time here at GTM and I won a tournament early, yet Avalanche never won any.

GG to all of you guys 

[Shield]

It's my first time here at GTM and I won a tournament early, yet Avalanche never won any.

GG to all of you guys 

someone call the cops id like to report shots fired

[Baconus_Yum]

Despite the bad luck, and some controversial decisions, I liked this tournament. I am probably going to put executioner in another tourney somewhere. I wouldn't mind if there was another tourney like this.

I would put grudge match here but I just saw I cannot do that yet.

[Dreamcast]

I TRIED SO HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD

Dude, use these.

[doot]

Thats what i get for being too gullible.

[jdg37]

Team format definitely made things more interesting

[Avalanche]

I promised a response, and you're getting it.

Agreed. 3 bursts, and they are all at max arcs. The hinges are less of an issue imo, I mainly have issue with skirt sheets.

So making a flipper as powerful as one would be IRL is OP now (Image removed from quote.)
Plus it's easily cheesed by anything that gets under it, you know, like a IRL flipper (Image removed from quote.)

Also, I'm fairly sure armour plates have the exact if not better stats that skirts so it's probably for the best he used skirts. (Image removed from quote.)

Before you go and try and slam our Team Captain for factors outside his control, how about you consider the fact that it was you who set up the luck-based system that led to 3 overhead spinners being on our team, and it was you who accepted CS, despite either knowing that it was over powered, or failing to test it properly to see if it was overpowered. Oh, and there's nothing un-IRL about overhead spinners, mate. There IS something wrong with a 3 piston flipper however.

Before you go and try and slam our Tourney Host for factors outside his control (he was the one who accepted CS, so it was entirely in his control), how about you consider the fact that it was Baconus, Enigma, and you who sent butt ugly HS . He never even said they were OP anyways, he was just saying they can literally beat most the bots on the team aside from Paladin maybe. Oh, and there's nothing un-IRL about slow and powerful flipper, mate. There IS something wrong with a  2 Moros blades stacked in each other, however. (Thanks F1Krazy for telling me so I can use it for copypasta)

Sounds like people just got E X P O S E D for trying to get ez wins with a HS (Image removed from quote.)

Also, it's a fairly cool idea, and spikestrips aren't that durable, and you saw it get outwedged and flipped about the place by Paladin.

(Image removed from quote.)
Croc Smile aka OMG SPIKE SPAM
10 spike strips x 2,000 hp each = 20,000 total HP
10 large beater bars x 2,500 hp each = 25,000 total HP
20,000 + 25,000 = 45,000 total HP
10 spike strips x  446 DP = 4,460 total DP + Flail boost since spike strips are only piercing
10 large beater bars x 240 DP = 2,400 total (No flail boost since pure concussion)
4,460 + 2,400 = 6,860 total DP + Flail boost

VS

Grindr aka OMG SAW SPAM
8 saws x 3,600 HP each (The appear to be 80cm Saws)  = 28,800 total HP
8 saws x  408 DP each = 3,264 total DP

Croc Smile > Grindr by 16,200 weapon HP
Croc Smile > Grindr by 3,595 weapon DP

So what bot had fragile weapons again (Image removed from quote.)

And who would have guessed a rammer without a wedge got dunked on by a flipper, I mean, that's kinda how things work, right? (Image removed from quote.)

Right, let's dissect and destroy this argument.



"So making a flipper as powerful as one would be IRL is OP now" Yes, this is RA2 not real life, and besides, if we're going on that argument, what the hell kind of IRL flipper uses 3 pistons simultaneously? The problem here is that Paladin, while being cool looking enough to class as IRL, is on the verge of becoming tryhard. If this sort of 3 burst flipper was done by somebody less skilled (i'll ignore flipster because the fact is his swing arc on the flippers are very short, so it's not too powerful in practice), people would flip their sh**. And when Baconus built a 3 piston hammer bot, Badger did.

Do robot wars bots have 3 hammers? (hint: no, they don't)

If you want to play for max efficiency, go for DSL-S. IRL isn't for efficiency.

The irony is absolutely killing me here: either Badger's a total hypocrite and has intentionally broken his statement "IRL isn't for efficiency", and/or or you've decided that his bot being OP (BY HIS OWN STATED STANDARDS, I MIGHT ADD) is perfectly fine. I'm going with the latter here, Badger's been a bit of a snarky arse with the "sh**canning" post but he obviously put time into this.

"Plus it's easily cheesed by anything that gets under it, you know, like a IRL flipper" Or a bot with a component wedge? Yeah, this is also hypocritical considering on the Banter Wars Wiki discord you slammed me for using a skirt hinge wedge with emergency wedge (which in previous bots i've made can and has been torn right off), so either we built a robot with wedges that can beat your robot, at which point you decide to bitch and moan about using metal/skirt hinge wedges, or we take the moral high road and try and build IRL bots with efficiency that doesn't make them ungodly OP (See Executioner and Fighter Mk.II which use powerful weapons, but still have obvious flaws in that they don't have wedges and cannot selfright well) and then decide to raise valid concerns (which could have been dealt with some sort of civility considering the more serious tone used by Demon), and you promptly try to mock us for it. Great. That seems fair and not hypocritical.

"Also, I'm fairly sure armour plates have the exact if not better stats that skirts so it's probably for the best he used skirts." That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to Demon complaining about Badger using skirt/metal hinges with small wedges on, but I said that I had no issue with that. Context, 09, context.

"Before you go and try and slam our Tourney Host for factors outside his control, how about you consider the fact that it was Baconus, Enigma, and you who sent butt ugly HS . He never even said they were OP anyways, he was just saying they can literally beat most the bots on the team aside from Paladin maybe. Oh, and there's nothing un-IRL about slow and powerful flipper, mate. There IS something wrong with a  2 Moros blades stacked in each other, however."

"Tourney host for factors outside his control": The tournament host literally has control over all the factors of the tournament: he writes the rules, organises the tournament, and critically: ACCEPTS THE BOTS. Gulden is highly hypocritical for mocking CS as a flail ram, considering he was the guy who took it, accepted it, and had to test the AI on it and didn't think at any point "nah this is too overpowered" but then when he saw it in action he pulled a 180 and mocked Jamied666 for entering it. Alright, that's sort of standard for those who can't do anything about it, such as myself and demon about Paladin, and 09 and Badger about CS, but for the host to turn around and say that is pretty hypocritical. That being said the CS hate is 80% justified in my opinion.

"how about you consider the fact that it was Baconus, Enigma, and you who sent butt ugly HS": Enigma's bot is not ugly. It's a bit bland other than the skin, but sure as hell not ugly. And if you disagree, then by your ridiculously high standards: Challenge is a white box with some metal and a eggbeater, making it bland and ugly (by your standards), Axe Questions Later is just bad, Killshot (by your standards) is a flat metallic box with a hammer, and hell, even solaris is just a orange/red tombclone. And before you say "Killshot and Solaris aren't bad" then frankly Executioner, MITP and Fighter aren't that bad either, but not every builder can create works of art, can they? Perhaps help them (Baconus) improve rather than writing them off as butt ugly and taking the piss?

"He never even said they were OP anyways, he was just saying they can literally beat most the bots on the team aside from Paladin maybe."

So this: "and a bot with nothing but hinges on his team." isn't meant to say that the robot is a OP flail ram? "Nothing but hinges" says that it only works because of the hinges, hence it is only a op flail ram. Also, he's the host who accepted it, so he's hypocritical for allowing it at the time but dissing the builder now.

"Oh, and there's nothing un-IRL about slow and powerful flipper, mate." No. No there isn't. Precisely what is your point here? Sounds to me like you're running out of ideas for your copypasta, showing that your argument is not well founded. At all. Because i haven't mentioned this even once: My problem is with the 3 bursts, which is just dancing on the lines between IRL,Tryhard IRL and DSL-S imo. If a worse builder built a 3 burst flipper, people would be all over him.

"There IS something wrong with a  2 Moros blades stacked in each other, however.": I concede that this is intentionally going for efficiency over looks and is not in the spirit of IRL, but what the hell has this got to do with me? F1Krazy's fault, not mine, I didn't build it and I didn't even mention it in my argument. Go attack him for it, not me. Jungle Party's existence in this tournament is down to 2 people: F1Krazy and take a wild guess at who the second it: Guldenflame. If you're going to get "bootyblasted" over a OP tombclone perhaps you should complain to the host, instead of somebody who was handed JP to his team without his control over the matter. I did precisely that with Paladin.

"Sounds like people just got E X P O S E D for trying to get ez wins with a HS" Oh please. The irony of this is shocking: is the name Solaris ringing any bloody bells?  You've literally got no point here, because your own team has won this tournament through usage of a 3 burst flipper with large arcs to maximize power, as well as using a Tombclone HS, in a arena where flippers were meant to have a hard time to flip robots out. It's almost as if nobody was expecting flippers, so Badger (and TGM, but he limited his swing arc like a proper lad) decided to get "ez wins with a" overly powerful flipper.

And now, for the final vestige of your argument, which has either missed the point, provided key flaws that I can exploit, or both.

It's time for the snarky "consider the following" section to be annihilated.

Croc Smile aka OMG SPIKE SPAM
10 spike strips x 2,000 hp each = 20,000 total HP
10 large beater bars x 2,500 hp each = 25,000 total HP
20,000 + 25,000 = 45,000 total HP
10 spike strips x  446 DP = 4,460 total DP + Flail boost since spike strips are only piercing
10 large beater bars x 240 DP = 2,400 total (No flail boost since pure concussion)
4,460 + 2,400 = 6,860 total DP + Flail boost

VS

Grindr aka OMG SAW SPAM
8 saws x 3,600 HP each (The appear to be 80cm Saws)  = 28,800 total HP
8 saws x  408 DP each = 3,264 total DP

Wow. Impressive mathematics. This would seal your argument: Had you not missed the fact that the large beaters are not meant to deal damage, and are used to hold on the spike strips. They are literally right at the back of the jaw: they 'd barely scratch somebody's wedge if lucky. And also I was only referring to the spike strips in my argument, so this makes all of your calculations inherently unbalanced.

"10 spike strips x 2,000 hp each = 20,000 total HP"
"8 saws x 3,600 HP each (The appear to be 80cm Saws)  = 28,800 total HP"

So what bot had fragile weapons again (Image removed from quote.)

Crocodile Smile. 20,000 < 28,800. So the point that I had made was, looking at purely what I said and the logic of it's weaponry: true.

And as for the weapon DP: Yeah, CS is overpowered. It's undeniable. But Gulden accepted it, so don't get "bootyblasted" by me about his mistake. And also, taking off the 2,400 DP from the beater bars makes it a closer gap.
And also you haven't accounted for the fact that Grindr's saws have frequency.
And also you forgot that throughout the fight CS slammed Grindr around the arena so that it couldn't get it's saws into play at all, because it was inherently better at controlling the fight than Grind.

Right, that's your argument obliterated. Anything you want to add?

I'm not even going to congratulate you for the victory, to be honest. You won through the luck of the draw: our team had no flippers, you did. You just scraped by with a close decision over MITP, and if JP or Executioner hadn't lost, we could have taken this tournament.

I'll see you next tournament (whether Gulden hosts it as a sequel which would be nice if he could work out the faults and problems this tournament had, or if I just rip it off and solve the problems myself and set somebody else to judge), in any case. Preferably as Captain.

It's my first time here at GTM and I won a tournament early, yet Avalanche never won any.

GG to all of you guys 

Well, somebody thinks they're a big shot, don't they? You mean your TEAM won a tournament. Don't let this TEAM victory go to your head. It's a team victory because Paladin and Challenge took out the robots that could have annihilated you (Executioner, JP) before you got involved. I'll see you in the challenge board once I finish up with TheRoboteer. (Though Solaris was an excellent first entrant, I must add. But talking sh** this early in your time on GTM? Yeah, i'm going to enjoy beating you.)

[Badger]

Not gonna quote because nobody wants to read that garbage twice.

All I'm gonna say is that having 3 separate hammer arms isn't IRL, at least in the way baconus presented it. Having 3 actual burst motors is fine in my book, because RA2 doesn't allow for a single burst to be powerful enough for IRL standards. Also, if I had wanted Paladin just to be tryhard broken I would've given it hitler-style wedges that weren't ass, made it 2WD with not terrible drive motors and saved a ton of weight on unnessecary armour etc. It's supposed to be tank inspired - slow but with heavy armour and a powerful weapon. Hopefully that design inspiration comes across in the bot's aesthetics.

Let's be honest, you're only crying about it because you lost to it.

And NeonCalypso's bot is better than yours :>

[Philippa]

*you're

[Mecha]

It's my first time here at GTM and I won a tournament early, yet Avalanche never won any.

[Mecha]

> 15
> Elder

I meant that as in how long he's been here, not his actual age

[090901]

I want a rumble/grudge match of Flipster vs 3 HS.

@LRA2 they is no reason to use beaters aside from having more weapons, as steel extenders weigh less and have more HP from what I remember (Otherwise that,s just bad bot building then, and they will end up do damage no matter what, so you really can't say they are "just for extenders" when they are in the fromt of the bot on a rammer IMO. Also if you didn't know, flails basically give piericing weapons a frequency effect. Also I never slammed you for using a skirt wedge, I slammed you for using an ugly look wedge. 

PS: The "How about you consider" was just supposed to be an edited Copypasta tier of your post and not mean't to be taken that seriously + I told SHIELD his bot was a sh** on discord lmao

I have more to add but I have to go to work so w/e

[Avalanche]

Let's be honest, you're only crying about it because you lost to it.

I'm sick of hearing this argument. Instead of listening to the argument that I put forward, you decide to yell "LOL YOU LOST TO IT SO YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID". This is just a desperate way of ignoring the point i'm making that in RA2 3 burst flippers just aren't fair. I know you're trying to simulate real life, but 3 bursts is excessive. I get what you were going for with paladin, but take the power of Paladin. Then put that into a sloppier bot, which might use even larger bursts. You would end up with a horrific robot that if it persisted in being made could completely **** up the IRL meta: and we've been here before with the Judge Burst Flippers saga of dsl.2.1. Hence, I want to prevent these 3 burst flippers from catching on. Also, 3 bursts is necessary? Calling BS. Hell, Anti Gravity Evo flipped robots out the Ring arena with a good run up and a flip, and it used a SINGLE burst. 2 bursts should be maximum.

I want a rumble/grudge match of Flipster vs 3 HS.

@LRA2 they is no reason to use beaters aside from having more weapons, as steel extenders weigh less and have more HP from what I remember (Otherwise that,s just bad bot building then, and they will end up do damage no matter what, so you really can't say they are "just for extenders" when they are in the fromt of the bot on a rammer IMO. Also if you didn't know, flails basically give piericing weapons a frequency effect. Also I never slammed you for using a skirt wedge, I slammed you for using an ugly look wedge. 

PS: The "How about you consider" was just supposed to be an edited Copypasta tier of your post and not mean't to be taken that seriously + I told SHIELD his bot was a sh** on discord lmao

No, Jamied said they were used as extenders. The reason he used them, presumably, was that in the case that many of the spike strips were lost, he could try and ram with the beaters instead. but they aren't at the front of the bot: they are right at the back of the jaw where it's much more likely CS will end up stopping the robot with the part of the strips at the back, and where they won't get a flail boost.

And you missed the point yet again: I was saying that those robots were bad by your impossibly high standards: Killshot's alright with some neat wheelguards, and a cool, sleek finish, but could do with more colour. Challenge is actually quite good with the way the weapon supports were made. AQL isn't absolute cancer, but it's not the best. Solaris is really cool but needs skin work done.

[Gulden]

I want a rumble/grudge match of Flipster vs 3 HS.

There are like 5 HS.  Which ones? (Note: I will not add it to grudge matches if you don't specify)

There IS something wrong with a  2 Moros blades stacked in each other, however.

What I saw, they weren't stacked, rather placed right next to each other...

He never even said they were OP anyways, he was just saying they can literally beat most the bots on the team aside from Paladin maybe."

So this: "and a bot with nothing but hinges on his team." isn't meant to say that the robot is a OP flail ram? "Nothing but hinges" says that it only works because of the hinges, hence it is only a op flail ram. Also, he's the host who accepted it, so he's hypocritical for allowing it at the time but dissing the builder now.

It was a direct counter to when you said Paladin was tryhard because it had hinged wedges.

My problem is with the 3 bursts, which is just dancing on the lines between IRL,Tryhard IRL and DSL-S imo. If a worse builder built a 3 burst flipper, people would be all over him.

Can I just be blunt and say I had no idea what you guys were talking about when you guys said "Tryhard."
That might put at least something straight.

I'm not even going to congratulate you for the victory, to be honest. You won through the luck of the draw: our team had no flippers, you did. You just scraped by with a close decision over MITP, and if JP or Executioner hadn't lost, we could have taken this tournament.

Isn't that how half the tournaments are?  RNG decides who wins all the time.
Hence why we have the BTSHDBBDDTBL award! (Simplified to Unluckiest robot in this tourney)

It's my first time here at GTM and I won a tournament early, yet Avalanche never won any.

GG to all of you guys 

Well, somebody thinks they're a big shot, don't they? You mean your TEAM won a tournament. Don't let this TEAM victory go to your head. It's a team victory because Paladin and Challenge took out the robots that could have annihilated you (Executioner, JP) before you got involved. I'll see you in the challenge board once I finish up with TheRoboteer. (Though Solaris was an excellent first entrant, I must add. But talking sh** this early in your time on GTM? Yeah, i'm going to enjoy beating you.)

I'll enjoy this match...

[Avalanche]

"It was a direct counter to when you said Paladin was tryhard because it had hinged wedges."
Those are flails, and I was referring to Demon talking about Skirt and Metal hinges.
"Can I just be blunt and say I had no idea what you guys were talking about when you guys said "Tryhard."
That might put at least something straight."
Yeah you shouldn't host an IRL tournament if you don't know what IRL means.

[F1Krazy]

There IS something wrong with a  2 Moros blades stacked in each other, however.

What I saw, they weren't stacked, rather placed right next to each other...

I dunno how 09 interpreted "stapled together" as "stacked inside each other", but yeah, all I did was make the bar thicker, I didn't think it would be this big a deal