General Tournament Discussion

[cephalopod]

Yeah, that makes sense, not wanting it out there, however if I saw a 'new cool design' in a tournament, even if I didn't have the .bot file, I would attempt to replicate it using my knowledge. If you're that protective over a 'cool' design, you simply can't show anyone, or people will try to replicate. Therefore taking most of the joy out of discovering an awesome design.
After all, in Robot Wars, there were bots that revolutionized the sport. Hypno Disc for example showed people the power of the flywheel. If they wanted to be the only ones who were doing it, they wouldn't have shown anyone, and the entire exercise would've been a waste of time and money.

[Venko]

This small thing, that was supposed to be not a big deal, went too far (thanks to some people). I'm putting an end to this...

...I mean if clickbeetle asked for that everyone would respect his request wouldn't they?...

The biggest truth, that I read after my comeback. This hypocrites would instantly agree, if he asks.
First of all, I don't want this rule for me, I want it to protect all the good builders, so if someone is against it, maybe he want to do that kind of stealing stuff...
"The bots involved in this tournament will be included in an AI pack."
Look how simple and fast to achieve is. It will not force the people to not enter, they will just know and that's it.

...by saying your bots are too good for us...
I never said that, it's You posting an opinion...
...if you are REALLY that bothered about it, just put that line in your pm or however you send your bots...
I don't want this, no need, just a info in the OP is enough.

Now the truth. What I fear is not the host stealing my bots, or people cloning them by pics. The thing I'm worried is the direct stealing of the bot file from the AI pack after the tournament from a good builder by a lame builder (mostly in stock where not all people can stack that good). Imagine this theoretical situation : You spend hours and hours to do some uber stacking (MidF for example, 2 blacks + CB, 2 stacked snappers, all this in a perfectly small chassis) then You submit it for a tournament. The tournament is over, the AI pack is released without your knowledge, and then someone instead of cloning this bot by pic, used directly your bot file or with insignificant modifications and enter the next tournament and win it. You worked on it for hours, he have it for 5 sec. Some people don't care if someone will find out, as long as they win. If You don't find this disturbing, You are either a pathetic builder or stupid? This simple line I posted on the upper lines, will eliminate this with an ease. I'm still fighting for this, as long as I'm entering tournaments, when I stop enter tournaments and release all my bots they can do whatever they want. I don't build for hours just someone to steal mine or someone else work for a seconds. Instead, I get "attention seeker", "arrogant ass" and so...
I didn't know that this kind of stuff actually happened to Ianh. So we have the first case of this.
Also, when I made a damn good bot, and after testing it, I found that it's extremly good, of course I wouldn't show it to the most people, but keep it for ownage. And I have some of these, most stock builders don't innovate, just copy+paste.
Ianh05 is way smarter than You, if You ask me... And You look like a trolls to me, that don't have anything better to do than grudge for nothing and trolling people.

[HurricaneAndrew]

About Ian's bot... I talked to Jonzu on Skype and he says that the robot was merely a clone. He built it himself and submitted it for the tournament.

I do admit that I used a bot that was built by Somebody as a base for a bot I recently showcased. I gave Somebody full credit for any part of the bot that he built. The only reason I did it was to test a theory I had about a weapon setup, but I don't build in stock anymore and I cannot stack to save my life. The bot was never entered into a tournament and the bot file will most likely be lost at some point anyway.

As far as direct bot file copying, it has never happened, but if it did happen, the builder would most likely lose all credibility and respect from the entire community. So they would gain nothing.


Other than that, I don't have anything to say about this because frankly, I don't care either way.

[Trovaner]

Many tournaments have a rule like "all entries become the sole property of <whomever>" in them but that wouldn't work well for RA2 tournaments because of the ease of copying someone else's work. However, I like to think that the host can do whatever they would like with the bots that participated in their tournament (it had to take place) as long as they are not claiming them as their own. The fact that your bot was seen on video from multiple angles already gives people enough information to make copies of it. Anything that people find interesting regardless of whether it is big or small is likely to be copied and that will not change (we are not going to go down the same road as the U.S. patent system). If people take inspiration for something, we should not be limiting them.

Also the argument that if Click said it, this wouldn't stir anything up is invalid. I and others have disagreed with both ACAMS, Clickbeetle, and JoeBlo before with very little hesitation. The 1.31 and 1.4 patches are prime examples of me taking the opposite side of all three of them.

This is all just my opinion though so feel free to continue debating this if you so choose.

[Conraaa]

This small thing, that was supposed to be not a big deal, went too far (thanks to some people). I'm putting an end to this...

...I mean if clickbeetle asked for that everyone would respect his request wouldn't they?...

The biggest truth, that I read after my comeback. This hypocrites would instantly agree, if he asks.
First of all, I don't want this rule for me, I want it to protect all the good builders, so if someone is against it, maybe he want to do that kind of stealing stuff...
"The bots involved in this tournament will be included in an AI pack."
Look how simple and fast to achieve is. It will not force the people to not enter, they will just know and that's it.

...by saying your bots are too good for us...
I never said that, it's You posting an opinion...
...if you are REALLY that bothered about it, just put that line in your pm or however you send your bots...
I don't want this, no need, just a info in the OP is enough.

Now the truth. What I fear is not the host stealing my bots, or people cloning them by pics. The thing I'm worried is the direct stealing of the bot file from the AI pack after the tournament from a good builder by a lame builder (mostly in stock where not all people can stack that good). Imagine this theoretical situation : You spend hours and hours to do some uber stacking (MidF for example, 2 blacks + CB, 2 stacked snappers, all this in a perfectly small chassis) then You submit it for a tournament. The tournament is over, the AI pack is released without your knowledge, and then someone instead of cloning this bot by pic, used directly your bot file or with insignificant modifications and enter the next tournament and win it. You worked on it for hours, he have it for 5 sec. Some people don't care if someone will find out, as long as they win. If You don't find this disturbing, You are either a pathetic builder or stupid? This simple line I posted on the upper lines, will eliminate this with an ease. I'm still fighting for this, as long as I'm entering tournaments, when I stop enter tournaments and release all my bots they can do whatever they want. I don't build for hours just someone to steal mine or someone else work for a seconds. Instead, I get "attention seeker", "arrogant ass" and so...
I didn't know that this kind of stuff actually happened to Ianh. So we have the first case of this.
Also, when I made a damn good bot, and after testing it, I found that it's extremly good, of course I wouldn't show it to the most people, but keep it for ownage. And I have some of these, most stock builders don't innovate, just copy+paste.
Ianh05 is way smarter than You, if You ask me... And You look like a trolls to me, that don't have anything better to do than grudge for nothing and trolling people.

...if you are REALLY that bothered about it, just put that line in your pm or however you send your bots...
I don't want this, no need, just a info in the OP is enough.

Wait, so you don't want this, and it's seemingly evident not many other people are keen on it?

[Venko]

Many tournaments have a rule like "all entries become the sole property of <whomever>" in them but that wouldn't work well for RA2 tournaments because of the ease of copying someone else's work. However, I like to think that the host can do whatever they would like with the bots that participated in their tournament (it had to take place) as long as they are not claiming them as their own. The fact that your bot was seen on video from multiple angles already gives people enough information to make copies of it. Anything that people find interesting regardless of whether it is big or small is likely to be copied and that will not change (we are not going to go down the same road as the U.S. patent system). If people take inspiration for something, we should not be limiting them.
We don't discuss a cloning from a pic here, we are discussing the direct use of the bot file from a GTM member that downloaded the AI pack after the release.
Also the argument that if Click said it, this wouldn't stir anything up is invalid. I and others have disagreed with both ACAMS, Clickbeetle, and JoeBlo before with very little hesitation. The 1.31 and 1.4 patches are prime examples of me taking the opposite side of all three of them.
Yes, but You are not from that hypocrites I mentioned above
This is all just my opinion though so feel free to continue debating this if you so choose.

Wait, so you don't want this, and it's seemingly evident not many other people are keen on it?

Ditch the bad habit of speaking from the name of the community at first. And yes, I don't want to send a PM to the host, I want this in the OP:
"The bots involved in this tournament will be included in an AI pack."
, because the leaking of my bots is mine responsibility, I can judge what to send and what not, after I read that line... Also, your "alienating" argument is pathetic, You can't post this as a main argument against mine.

[MassimoV]

No, I don't think I'll do that. I mean jeez, it's just a game. We aren't ruining anyone's career with this.

[Badnik96]

You say you don't want to have to PM the host, but how else are you gonna get the bot to them?

Dude between this and BoTM you are making yourself look like a gigantic (expletive). I would stop now and save whatever respect people have left for you.

[Venko]

No, I don't think I'll do that. I mean jeez, it's just a game. We aren't ruining anyone's career with this.

Yes, but a short line of text in the OP isn't ruining anyone's career too. Right?

You say you don't want to have to PM the host, but how else are you gonna get the bot to them?
I'm sending the bots by PM, I don't want to send a permissions, a line of text in the OP is enough.
Dude between this and BoTM you are making yourself look like a gigantic (expletive). I would stop now and save whatever respect people have left for you.
Hahaha, I don't seek respect at all dude, I'm simply just posting my point of view and some people take all this too far (look at the shortness of my first posts on the problems). Also, there is no point, because the forum is full with gigantic (expletive)s that gang me up as Ianh said and they will never be OK with whatever I do. Don't You find a coincidence that all member that grudge me are mostly a new members that joined after I left and don't know me? I'm just Venko, I post bots and opinions, some like them some not and that's it.

I don't want this for myself only, I'm leaving this place soon, so all your grudges against me are kinda pointless and childish... You, the new members gang, You are not telling me what to be my opinion.

[Naryar]

Venko, people are trying to make arguments against your points and you turn them into dramatic personal attacks by calling them trolls. Just stop it.

You FULLY have the right to get pissed off if someone slightly changes your own hardly built designs and uses it as a tournament or ai pack entry, and you probably have even the right to ask for a removal of the bot... and I will defend your right to do so.

But limiting the flow of bots between builders is not the right way to achieve that. It does more harm than good, in fact. You grow as a builder with change and development, not isolationism. You should know that.

Not everyone downloads a bot to use it as their own against the builder's will.

[ianh05]

I believe it got personal when they said he thinks that he "above it all".

Lot's of people do clone though, Venko doesn't want to see his work become a fad in showcases and tournaments (look at what happened with caster armor especially after CB showed Heroic Sacrifice), He obviously has some unique designs he doesn't want to see go down that road.

It's hard to say which is better:

*Preventing cloning by holding unique designs back and hopefully having others create new designs themselves instead of cloning said bots.

*Sharing unique bots and having it cloned by other builders instead of having them come up with unique designs themselves.

The best thing for creativity would be to close down the showcase for awhile and have everyone come back with new unique designs, but that wouldn't be fun for anyone.

[Venko]

"The bots involved in this tournament will be included in an AI pack."
IS A

...limiting the flow of bots between builders...

? WTF ?
Nar, You are basically saying that :
"If someone commit a crime I'm with You for punishing it, but I'm against a preventive police or to have a laws". And this is funny.
Also, did people become scared and go away from the tournaments of Ianh and Mr. AS when they include this in their OP? Did someone died from that 2 lines?

[MassimoV]

I don't want to have the pressure of something like this. Maybe the pack never gets released (RIWAI) or maybe the host just thinks the bots should be released to the comunity (RIP AI, at least I think).

[infiniteinertia]

i feel so much dumber after reading all of that........

[Venko]

I don't want to have the pressure of something like this. Maybe the pack never gets released (RIWAI) or maybe the host just thinks the bots should be released to the comunity (RIP AI, at least I think).

I can't understand what You are trying to say. Can You be more clear and specific? I don't have problems with your posts and opinions.

The host always can put this, if it's unsure:
"The bots involved in this tournament may someday be included in an AI pack."

[cephalopod]

What Massimov is saying is sometimes the host will just decide to release the tournament entries in an AI pack, as I did with RIP AI, which had no complaints whatsoever, despite having some very interesting entries.
At the end of the day it's pretty much the host's decision, and if they decide to release the bots in a pack and someone objects, their bot can be removed from the pack at that point. It doesn't require all this pre-meditation in the rules, I didn't know I would release RIP AI after RIP2, it just felt right, for example.

[Venko]

You all are missing the main part here. I don't fear the stealing 'cos of the new design, but 'cos of the extreme stacking already done. There is no extreme stacking and glitching in DSL, only in stock. Try to build something like MidF to see that it's not easy to build, like a DSL bot . That's why You all say no one complains, simply 'cos the pack You released don't have that uber stack at all. I don't do DSL, I want this rule for stock mostly. So allowing it in stock only may suit both sides well, 'cos I don't care for DSL. Also, in stock it's harder to follow who steals, since stock don't have that big community as the DSL. The reason that I want a text in the OP, instead of telling the host to not include my bots, was exactly to not sound like a big deal (contrary to this, You all label me exactly as this). Also, see how this discussion is flowing way more problemless without a bite-ish comments...

[HurricaneAndrew]

There are several stock AI packs and there has never been a complaint.

[ianh05]

Also, in stock it's harder to follow who steals, since stock don't have that big community as the DSL.

Wouldn't that make it easier to follow due to less bots being around?

[ianh05]

Tournaments people are waiting for:

1. Boxing tournament (been talked about many times! Robot combat league style)
2. Racing tournament (timed lap around certain arena's)
3. Robot Olympics (with lifting, jumping, throwing challenges etc.)

This list features all possible but never done before tournaments. Feel free to add to this list :)