Author Topic: NightravenShade Sucks at IF  (Read 3578 times)

Offline Nightraven Shade

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NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« on: September 17, 2018, 02:36:43 PM »
So i thought i would take a look at IF and see what could make on it and heres first couple things.

 
screenshot.jpg

This is a LW pretty much just a 4wd stick bot with a spinner and beater bar rammer

 
screenshot_1.jpg

This is a HW 2wd angled HS it uses 4 ballast just to stop rolling over

Offline Reier

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2018, 03:54:27 PM »
welcome to the best meta  :mrgreen: obviously build what you want, but be aware that using RA2CF in ironforge is tournament-illegal. Meaning the motors and batteries clipping through your chassis and spikes inside the wheels mainly.

internal shots and weights would be very helpful. we can only give very general advice without those. be aware that the weightclasses in IF are different than in other mods (ie HW is 400, not 800, but any class can use up to 4 ballasts without it counting against your weight limit). with those weights i'm certain your top bot is MW or higher in ironforge terminology.

that aside, I like how compact they are. The weapons are decent but could benefit from a few things. On the first one the ramming weapons really unfocused and won't even hit anything until the saw gets ripped off (press f12 to see the collision mesh, it's bigger than it looks on the model) same with the spike strips, they keep the beaters from hitting anything either. I recommend making the ramming rack more even and flat so that the weapons hit at the same time as much as possible. That saw is also not going to do much, saws in IF are pretty fragile and more useful for grinding with VS overall. You could either ditch it and focus on your ramming rack or replace the saw with something else (I recommend a small tribar with weapons on the end)

the weapon on the second is better, but I suggest either angling the entire weapon more parallel with the floor or just angling the individual teeth upwards with light angle pieces maybe 10-20 degrees. you're going to have a hard time powerfully hitting opponents with your current setup with the way ironforge is. most weapons in ironforge have normals unlike in DSL or stock, which means that they only do damage on (usually) one side of the weapon, the dark gray side in this case. definitely recommend adding some form of wheel protection on this one too.


if you have any questions just let me know. looking forward to more!
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Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 04:03:45 PM »
thx for the advice and yeah lot different to DSL going take a bit of getting used to and ill have to check the full IF rules but does seem like could be a bit more challenging to build on even with the less components.

Offline Thrackerzod

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2018, 05:08:56 PM »
i like your showcase name

Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2018, 11:17:37 AM »
so after the advice given and looking at a few other IF bots i gave it another go and ended up with these.

 
screenshot_2.jpg

a beta powered overhead with dustpan front and a scoop on back the large tracks and motors on this make it very fast and uses a skid steer system if going full speed.

 
screenshot_4.jpg

This one is more of a rammer with a back beaterbar "bumper" it does however also use 2 linear actuators with spikes attached to flip or deal damage if a bot gets stuck on the scoop.

 
screenshot_3.jpg

Finally a big disk with beater bar attachments its fully invert-able but does drag with the disk when powering up.

Offline Thrackerzod

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2018, 11:38:31 AM »
Generally, always build for the weight limit.  Weight limits are weird in Ironforge - LW is 125, MW is 200, HW is 400.  You also get 4 free ballasts that don't count toward the weight total, but I don't see any ballasts on these from the internal shots (thanks for including internals btw).

The first one, my concern is that its not wide enough. Lots of IF bots use those big triangular wedges to make themselves really really wide.

For the second ones, rear weapons are useless in AI tournaments but if you plan on driving like in Centauri then they could be useful. Not much wasted space inside the chassis, which is good.

Third one, I've never been good at making HSes so not a lot to say. It does seem like its got very few weapons on it.

Also, the last time I built in this game was around a year ago, so my advice may be a bit out of date.  Overall, not bad though.

Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 11:55:27 AM »
Generally, always build for the weight limit.  Weight limits are weird in Ironforge - LW is 125, MW is 200, HW is 400.  You also get 4 free ballasts that don't count toward the weight total, but I don't see any ballasts on these from the internal shots (thanks for including internals btw).

The first one, my concern is that its not wide enough. Lots of IF bots use those big triangular wedges to make themselves really really wide.

For the second ones, rear weapons are useless in AI tournaments but if you plan on driving like in Centauri then they could be useful. Not much wasted space inside the chassis, which is good.

Third one, I've never been good at making HSes so not a lot to say. It does seem like its got very few weapons on it.

Also, the last time I built in this game was around a year ago, so my advice may be a bit out of date.  Overall, not bad though.

think all these use steel 10 armor currently which explains some the higher weight and the limits being lower does throw off a bit

Offline UberPyro

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2018, 01:16:18 PM »
In general, make sure the weapons you put on your bot have enough of their surface showing to have a nice contact area. The iron spikes in front of 1 and in back of 2 aren't doing very much, they should either be longer or removed. Additionally, 3 has a very small range with which it can hit opponents with the disk. I'm afraid that if another robot collides at an angle, it's going to hit the heater skirts and not the weapon.

For bot 1 in particular: The huge treads are probably a waste of weight on a middleweight edit: dang IF weightclasses, and they're causing a problem for your robot: if an opponent's wedge contacts the wheel before your wedge (and they probably will because they tend to be wider) then your robot lost the wedge war. Additionally, if an opponent is around the front end of your tread and stays there, it's pretty much out of reach of your hammer while it can hit your tread. It just seems like the treads are blocking the effectiveness of your weapon. So you could make the treads smaller or make the wedge wider. Also, you don't need so many overlapping wedges, just use the skirt hinges that have 1 connection for a wedge and have 2 of them. Space them out wide because those will be more effective. Also, it might be a good idea to make the hammer longer.

For bot 3 in particular: the skirts on top are not doing very much since they're not on hinges and they're blocking the weapon (they aren't really protecting anything either..). If you want invertible wedges then they should be on hinges also but they probably aren't worth it. More weapons on the disk (and using a disk that allows for more weapons) is probably a good idea, and rotating the beater bars vertically will help it hit low robots.

In general, your robots seem to have heavy armor in relation to their weight. I guess that's a preference thing and it's not necessarily bad, but in cases (especially with the HS) you don't want to find yourself outweaponed and then outpointed by the end of the match. Also follow Thrack's advice. It's really important to build to the weight limit for a competitive robot.

I might have said too much as to how to go about improving your robots. I don't want to control the way you build, so it's OK if you don't follow everything here, but hopefully you'll take some of this advice to make your robots better in combat.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 06:42:08 PM by UberPyro »

Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 01:28:52 PM »
In general, make sure the weapons you put on your bot have enough of their surface showing to have a nice contact area. The iron spikes in front of 1 and in back of 2 aren't doing very much, they should either be longer or removed. Additionally, 3 has a very small range with which it can hit opponents with the disk. I'm afraid that if another robot collides at an angle, it's going to hit the heater skirts and not the weapon.

For bot 1 in particular: The huge treads are probably a waste of weight on a middleweight, and they're causing a problem for your robot: if an opponent's wedge contacts the wheel before your wedge (and they probably will because they tend to be wider) then your robot lost the wedge war. Additionally, if an opponent is around the front end of your tread and stays there, it's pretty much out of reach of your hammer while it can hit your tread. It just seems like the treads are blocking the effectiveness of your weapon. So you could make the treads smaller or make the wedge wider. Also, you don't need so many overlapping wedges, just use the skirt hinges that have 1 connection for a wedge and have 2 of them. Space them out wide because those will be more effective. Also, it might be a good idea to make the hammer longer.

For bot 3 in particular: the skirts on top are not doing very much since their not on skirts and they're blocking the weapon (they aren't really protecting anything either..). If you want invertible wedges then they should be on hinges also but they probably aren't worth it. More weapons on the disk (and using a disk that allows for more weapons) is probably a good idea, and rotating the beater bars vertically will help it hit low robots.

In general, your robots seem to have heavy armor in relation to their weight. I guess that's a preference thing and it's not necessarily bad, but in cases (especially with the HS) you don't want to find yourself outweaponed and then outpointed by the end of the match. Also follow Thrack's advice. It's really important to build to the weight limit for a competitive robot.

I might have said too much as to how to go about improving your robots. I don't want to control the way you build, so it's OK if you don't follow everything here, but hopefully you'll take some of this advice to make your robots better in combat.

i read everything as new to this version so any advice ill listen to the weight limits and how limited the parts are do make it a bit more tricky so im currently seeing what is possible and how the parts work. i do think 2nd bot is likely to be most competitive currently although may switch the spikes out

Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 10:48:27 PM »
A tough little clampbot with 4wd steel 10 armor and dark scoop with a servo controlled arm so strictly PvP online only.
 
screenshot.jpg

Offline UberPyro

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2018, 12:05:02 PM »
The weight and chassis management is really good on this one. My biggest concern is with the batteries and motors: each orange outputs 10 amps and each drive motor uses 10 amps, and it looks like you only have 2 oranges. Also, it looks like there is some dark extender work inside the chassis, which could be made light to save weight (though its a little hard to see what's going on there) and that could be spent elsewhere (i.e. adding more batteries or making the arm longer). Personally I would go with a 2 wheeled robot since those tend to be more efficient and try to develop the weapon more but ultimately where to go from here is up to you.

Offline Reier

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2018, 12:06:51 PM »
agree with uberpyro. you've go the workings of a pretty good design but it has nowhere near enough batteries and even in online i'd be worried about such a lack of weapons. also agree that 2wd would probably be better for a LW (wheels are heavy)
with the plow and armor panels, I doubt you need st10. you can get more batteries with the weight it gives you. good job on building right up to the weight limit though.
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Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2018, 12:20:43 PM »
agree with uberpyro. you've go the workings of a pretty good design but it has nowhere near enough batteries and even in online i'd be worried about such a lack of weapons. also agree that 2wd would probably be better for a LW (wheels are heavy)
with the plow and armor panels, I doubt you need st10. you can get more batteries with the weight it gives you. good job on building right up to the weight limit though.

i originally thought same thing about the batteries but for some reason they seem to last 3 mins not sure if its as only powers 2 wheels at a time or what but seems to and was thinking about replacing some extender to add length to the arm

Offline Reier

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2018, 12:23:34 PM »
they will likely power it for 3 minutes but the motors will only be half as strong or whatever as they could potentially be. it powers all the motors, just at less strength. duracels also last by far the shortest amount of time of all the batteries, the bigger they are the exponentially longer they last. it's always a good idea to get the biggest batt you can while still providing it with the amps it requires.
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Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2018, 12:27:09 PM »
hmmm ill have check that but i just did laps for 3 mins and had 1/4 bat life left and no really speed loss but you know IF lot better then me so ill mess about with bats and armor

Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 10:29:58 AM »
so again after listening to advice about amp and ballast this is next bot came up with a couple configs. MW with 200kg ballast and 3 15amp batteries.

 
screenshot_1.jpg
 
screenshot_6.jpg

Offline Reier

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2018, 12:37:51 PM »
getting there! a lot tighter build.
chassis space management is really nice, I would suggest 1 carbatt + 1 nifty over 3 nifties however. same weight and it'll last longer. 45 amps is a bit overkill and the large batteries last exponentially longer than the same weight in smaller batteries.

I do hope you can get a more damaging weapon on there somehow. DSL bars are not really designed to be weapons in and of themselves. super bad damage. The plow assembly may want to be widened a bit too, especially if the spinner will be likely knocking people away and making it hard to corral them (perhaps 2 plows in a V). Other than that, it's pretty solid overall for a pvp bot. with some good driving you can make it work well in the right arena.

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Offline Nightraven Shade

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 01:23:20 PM »
getting there! a lot tighter build.
chassis space management is really nice, I would suggest 1 carbatt + 1 nifty over 3 nifties however. same weight and it'll last longer. 45 amps is a bit overkill and the large batteries last exponentially longer than the same weight in smaller batteries.

I do hope you can get a more damaging weapon on there somehow. DSL bars are not really designed to be weapons in and of themselves. super bad damage. The plow assembly may want to be widened a bit too, especially if the spinner will be likely knocking people away and making it hard to corral them (perhaps 2 plows in a V). Other than that, it's pretty solid overall for a pvp bot. with some good driving you can make it work well in the right arena.

im using steel 10 armor so can easily reduce that as not really anything exposed and add something to dsl bar and probably switch and use 2 dark scoops thx for advice

Offline Reier

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2018, 01:26:53 PM »
yea I definitely would. you really don't need st10 with the plows and high HP tracks
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Offline Billy5545

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Re: NightravenShade Sucks at IF
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 06:03:44 PM »
You are already better than me in IF. Good job. I think you should try DSL-S and Stock unrealistic next, and to keep doing IRL too