DSL 2.5

[LiNcK]

Hey guys, Before you all start freakking out no... Im not suggesting a new complete mod. I just wanna suggest a "Fix" of DSL so to speak :P

So we all know that DSL has some "rules of building":
The only batteries worth your time are ants (And battlepacks a lil bit)
Ram plate & The widerr ram plate are useless

Anyways, I was shuffling through the components & Showcases & I noticed alotof things are useless...
Some have normals, Others lie about their real strength & So on...
Look at this illustration for example:

Dont even get me started on the wheels, All I ever use is Technos & Vlad's, Sometimes Technodestructo's (But theyre huge). Some more are also used by other members, But most wheels are NEVER EVER used.

I might be (And probz am) wrong in a few of those things but its mostly true. My suggestion? We need to "Fix" those components to add more variety in the building. (Balance the game)
For example:
* The skirt hinges were fixed by Joe with his narmour be gone patch...Everyone is using it now.
* The BSGs horrible mesh was fixed by Nar AI, IDK how many people are using it but my love for Naryar increased to 202749% Coz of it<3

My suggestions is to do something like this with ALL the components. We as a community decide how things can be balanced. (Veteran players can help alot with this)

For example, I remember building a bot with this hammer:

I was told it had normals so it sucked...


Well, Its THIS kind of problem we could fix. And by doing so we would add alot of variety in bot building...
Instead of everyone spamming razors & Beater bars we might see these hammers being used. If the axes were balanced we would see bots with axes (Seriously, Axes are non existant in RA2)
We could also fix the armors, Everyone knows that using Steel (And Aluminium kinda) is retarded... That can be fixed.

So, What do you guys say? Should we revision DSL 2.1?
There wont be an addition of components or replicas/whatever... Simply just revision the current components & Maayybbeee add some if the community wants to do so.
We could also remake the textures, Coz cmon, The textures are all pixelated & Compared to today's graphics the game looks like crap. Textures would be a nice addition too.
A pic to prove my texture point:

The upper game is alright, You know that is a wall & Stuff, But the retextures one looks alot better dont you think? Its more awesome & Enjoyable to play the game.

[ty4er]

most of those things arent useless dude :P

firestorm flipper, tribars, hammer, ant blade for the ap, sawblade, light and heavy ds teeth (the others arent bad), hammers, i hope you mean everything on the spike strip apart from razors, some replica disks arent bad, vlad spikes and most of what's in that catagory and the panic attack/storm skirts. People use loads of different wheels aswell.

but i agree on the normals stuff and rebalancing.

[LiNcK]

most of those things arent useless dude :P

firestorm flipper, tribars, hammer, ant blade for the ap, sawblade, light and heavy ds teeth (the others arent bad), hammers, i hope you mean everything on the spike strip apart from razors, some replica disks arent bad, vlad spikes and most of what's in that catagory and the panic attack/storm skirts. People use loads of different wheels aswell.

but i agree on the normals stuff and rebalancing.

Oh yeah, Forgot to add the Heavy & Light DS tooth nor being useless :P I thought about it though...
Anyways, The saws are useless, Nobody uses them since with the way RA2 works they dont deal almost any damage :\
Vlad spikes have normals, Theyre really good but they have normals, That should be fixed (Its like a knife from the sides, it shouldet have normals)
Some replica discs arent bad, But everyone prefers building their own coz its better. So they should be upped somehow to compete with custom built discs (That use DSL dsics & Weapons)
Tribars arent really used either, I think the black one isnt THAT useless, Its kinda useless though.. The white one is for sure.
As far as I know, The normal RA2 Hammers (EDIT: Fixed lol) are useless, The DSL ones are the good ones.


Im talking about the categories there, Not just the component on the pic, So if it says a category is useless its coz most of the thing is useless. (Like the Wedges, Only the small wedge is useful)

[ty4er]

most of those things arent useless dude :P

firestorm flipper, tribars, hammer, ant blade for the ap, sawblade, light and heavy ds teeth (the others arent bad), hammers, i hope you mean everything on the spike strip apart from razors, some replica disks arent bad, vlad spikes and most of what's in that catagory and the panic attack/storm skirts. People use loads of different wheels aswell.

but i agree on the normals stuff and rebalancing.

Oh yeah, Forgot to add the Heavy & Light DS tooth nor being useless :P I thought about it though...
Anyways, The saws are useless, Nobody uses them since with the way RA2 works they dont deal almost any damage :\ in dsl they're a lot better than in stock. bit of a glass cannon but still good.
Vlad spikes have normals, Theyre really good but they have normals, That should be fixed (Its like a knife from the sides, it shouldet have normals) well a knife from the side wouldn't really do much to steel :P but i guess it keeps them from being uber weapons or whatever
Some replica discs arent bad, But everyone prefers building their own coz its better. So they should be upped somehow to compete with custom built discs (That use DSL dsics & Weapons)
Tribars arent really used either, I think the black one isnt THAT useless, Its kinda useless though.. The white one is for sure. tribars are used but are pretty weak. there are better alternatives but are still used.
As far as I know, The normal RA2 happens are useless, The DSL ones are the good ones.


Im talking about the categories there, Not just the component on the pic, So if it says a category is useless its coz most of the thing is useless. (Like the Wedges, Only the small wedge is useful)

The catagories should be sorted out so all the components are in it (like for the heavy/light ds teeth) or atleast some of the 'better' components.

[LiNcK]

I see what you mean, But tribars being weak means that they suck... If youre making a spinner that uses a tribar then you depend on the tribar, If it isnt strong enough it wont be used :P
I remember using a tribar for a spinner, Decided to change to a Small Hollowed Disc (or something like that) coz it was much better for just a bit more weight. It also had WAY more attachment points, Rendering the tribar pretty useless.

About the Vlad Poker, Yeah youre right... Maybe it can be dumbed down a bit in damage & The normals could be removed... It would have to take some thinking.
IDK if its possible to make it deal an ammount of damage from 1 side but another ammount of another side. That would fix it pretty quick :P

Ive used saws, Infact I made a whole saw bot that extended its saws & rolled them to attack the opponent... It was a really cool bot, But it dealt less than 2000 damage in 1 match.
Most underwhelming bot Ive made... Maybe ill post a pic if I find it in my showcase :P

Some examples of meshes:



Edit: Here's the bot

It did no damage whatsoever to any other bots lol
I know the bot isnt even that good, But not doing any damage is a whole other level of bad...

[russian roulette]

I do agree that some replica and extender components need some cleaning up, also some of the weapons need to be taken out/hidden as well. Just for organization sake.

[Squirrel_Monkey]

Dude, saws can be awesome. The frequency can be useful:
https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/64443Angle%20Grinder%202.png

[Naryar]

It's what I tried to do with NAR AI mod but most people didn't accepted it.

[Trovaner]

Click has been working hard to balance all the components for DSL3. For that reason, I think it would be more productive if people assisted him in his efforts. Otherwise, any additional fixes to DSL2 would need to be ported over to DSL3 without ruining its other fixes. The idea itself is a bit of an overhaul anyways so it deserves to have its own major version number.

I'm sure if people offered their services instead of making new packs, DSL3 would get done much sooner. Both JoeBlo's and Naryar's packs attempted to "fix" the problems with DSL2 while adding some of their own additions. I have no problem with people branching out from DSL but understand that it makes development much slower.

As one of the few good AI packs for DSL, people weren't happy to hear that NAR AI was also going to lose its compatibility with DSL2. IIRC, one of the reasons that you made it was because Click suggested that DSL2 wasn't going to be compatible with DSL3? (I'm not sure if this is still true)

[Naryar]

NAR AI is compatible with DSL2, and it will stay compatible for now. The opposite is not necessarily true however.

If DSL3 gets released and goes mainstream (as I suppose it will if it gets released) and if I am still an active modder at the time, I will have no other choice than to change NAR AI to DSL3. It will be long and incredibly annoying, but worth it. And I will ask for help from other builders.

[Reier]

Click has been working hard to balance all the components for DSL3. For that reason, I think it would be more productive if people assisted him in his efforts. Otherwise, any additional fixes to DSL2 would need to be ported over to DSL3 without ruining its other fixes. The idea itself is a bit of an overhaul anyways so it deserves to have its own major version number.

I'm sure if people offered their services instead of making new packs, DSL3 would get done much sooner. Both JoeBlo's and Naryar's packs attempted to "fix" the problems with DSL2 while adding some of their own additions. I have no problem with people branching out from DSL but understand that it makes development much slower.

As one of the few good AI packs for DSL, people weren't happy to hear that NAR AI was also going to lose its compatibility with DSL2. IIRC, one of the reasons that you made it was because Click suggested that DSL2 wasn't going to be compatible with DSL3? (I'm not sure if this is still true)

Thing is, CB doesn't really seem to want much help is all.
I'd help if he wished it.

[Urjak]

Do... do you even play DSL? At least half of the components you said are useless I have personally used repeatedly and to good effect.

Anyways, I agree that helping Click would be a better use of time.

[LiNcK]

NAR AI is compatible with DSL2, and it will stay compatible for now. The opposite is not necessarily true however.

If DSL3 gets released and goes mainstream (as I suppose it will if it gets released) and if I am still an active modder at the time, I will have no other choice than to change NAR AI to DSL3. It will be long and incredibly annoying, but worth it. And I will ask for help from other builders.

Thats why this should be kind of an official update.
Look how alot of people adopted Joe's Narmour Be Gone fix... And I remember that right before I left they had a few NAR AI Tourneys.
By "Forcing" this as an update then tourneys will begin to accept it & It will be the official DSL. I dont think people will be accepting 1 component of your pack & Then another component someone made.
We should make 1 whole complete finished pack that is official. Thats what Im suggesting, Lets fix the meshes, Lets balance the stuff, Maybe touch up a few textures & Bam.
If the people like the updates they will adopt them (And cmon, It would make alot of components actually be useful so why wouldent they?)

Personally I would use NAR AI, I dont see why its bad to add new balanced components to the game, But if other people dont agree then Im being useless by building with NAR AI components.
This is why this would be an official DSL update & Not just a mod.

Click has been working hard to balance all the components for DSL3. For that reason, I think it would be more productive if people assisted him in his efforts. Otherwise, any additional fixes to DSL2 would need to be ported over to DSL3 without ruining its other fixes. The idea itself is a bit of an overhaul anyways so it deserves to have its own major version number.

I'm sure if people offered their services instead of making new packs, DSL3 would get done much sooner. Both JoeBlo's and Naryar's packs attempted to "fix" the problems with DSL2 while adding some of their own additions. I have no problem with people branching out from DSL but understand that it makes development much slower.

As one of the few good AI packs for DSL, people weren't happy to hear that NAR AI was also going to lose its compatibility with DSL2. IIRC, one of the reasons that you made it was because Click suggested that DSL2 wasn't going to be compatible with DSL3? (I'm not sure if this is still true)

Well, The thing is that cmon... DSL3 wont be releasing in a LOOONG time. Its practically dead... Theres no news & Its being worked on for years now but there doesnt seem to be any movement.
No offence to Click or anything, But It seems like its never gonna be finished, Or atleast not in 2012/2013. (Just guessing here, But theres almost no activity?)

So I would prefer to patch DSL2.1 up & Then we can go back to waiting for DSL3.
It has been suggested that we help with DSL3 but what can the community do? Maybe Naryar & Other veterans that CAN do stuff can enter their stuff, But I remember someone saying something about Click not wanting any help? :\


This is why Im suggesting this, Because I pretty much would prefer if we fixed the flaws DSL2.1 had while we wait for DSL3. (Which I dont really see happening)
"Patching" up DSL 2.1 would be alot easier than working on DSL3, Its simply just balancing issues & Mesh fixing, Its not CREATING anything new like DSL3.
Besides, Click doesnt want help with DSL3, So we arent wasting our time by working on this, Were making it better for ourselves while Click works on DSL3...
If he wanted help, Sure this is a lost of time, but he doesnt, So its either stay with the faulties of DSL 2.1 or actually fix them, As a community, And bring more life into DSL.


If the Ram plates are useful people will start using them, If the axes get useful (Somehow) people will start using them, Anything that gets "fixed" will be used.
Instead of just putting ants into your bot you will have the choice of putting 4 other kinds... Instead of razors you could put axes, It gives you more options & Flexibility, Without adding components.

So yeah, basically I lost my hope in DSL3, It looks awesome as & Kudos to Click for working on it & Making it so awesome, But its just taking too long you know?
Not to pressure or anything but its gonna be long since its released, It looks like its FAR AWAY from done (Or atleast were not getting the good news about its 98% Completion)

Because it looks to be so far away is why Im suggesting this...

[Trovaner]

Well, The thing is that cmon... DSL3 wont be releasing in a LOOONG time. Its practically dead... Theres no news & Its being worked on for years now but there doesnt seem to be any movement.
No offence to Click or anything, But It seems like its never gonna be finished, Or atleast not in 2012/2013. (Just guessing here, But theres almost no activity?)

DSL3 was first announced in late 2008 with the intension of balancing everything and adding more components and AI. The last update that you guys saw was 7 months ago, but what you may not be aware of is that some of Backlash's components are being ported over to DSL (as of 2 months ago).

So I would prefer to patch DSL2.1 up & Then we can go back to waiting for DSL3.
It has been suggested that we help with DSL3 but what can the community do? Maybe Naryar & Other veterans that CAN do stuff can enter their stuff, But I remember someone saying something about Click not wanting any help? :\

Thats just plain silly. Click is accepting help in any way shape or form. He won't hand out the current build of DSL3 but that doesn't mean he doesn't want any help. If you don't believe me, read it for yourself...

You're getting good at this.  I'm not going to need any HW replicas for DSL (after I make the existing replicas their proper weight classes, there will be a great overabundance of HW's) but if you ever make some LW's or MW's, I am quite confident you could get them to DSL-quality.

Easy Tasks: (DSL2.5 would actually have less in this catagory)
-Make decent LW or MW replicas
-Improve the skins of components (not positive)
-Create a positive atmosphere of interest. Discussing what you like/dislike, want/need, or even a positive remark would be helpful in sustaining interest in the project.
-Make a better UI (may have already been done)
-Ask one of the more advanced users how to do one of the programming tasks. 2-3 people have already asked me how to do certain mods that IMO could potentially be included in DSL3 after they were completed. I don't mind helping people that are interested in modding (regardless of prior knowledge) because it strengthens the community as a whole and makes my job easier in the long run (the selfish reason).

Basic Programming Tasks: (some of these wouldn't even require that you know what you're doing)
-Improve the GIB work (not positive)
  -Improve formulas for mobility, damage, and/or efficiency (the latter has already been done multiple times)
-Modify existing components to be more realistic (attachment points, collision mesh, etc.)
-Modify existing arenas to be more realistic
  -Make decent LW or MW replicas using custom components

Advanced Programming Tasks:
-Make new realistic components
-Make new tactics and smarter AI
  -Make decent LW or MW replicas using custom components

This is why Im suggesting this, Because I pretty much would prefer if we fixed the flaws DSL2.1 had while we wait for DSL3. (Which I dont really see happening)
"Patching" up DSL 2.1 would be alot easier than working on DSL3, Its simply just balancing issues & Mesh fixing, Its not CREATING anything new like DSL3.

DSL3 started out as a patch for DSL2 (with the same intentions) but evolved into into a full-blown project after Click realized how much work needed to be done.

Besides, Click doesnt want help with DSL3, So we arent wasting our time by working on this, Were making it better for ourselves while Click works on DSL3...
If he wanted help, Sure this is a lost of time, but he doesnt, So its either stay with the faulties of DSL 2.1 or actually fix them, As a community, And bring more life into DSL.

Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it any more true. As previously mentioned, Click is accepting help but it has to be something that he hasn't already done, DSL-quality, and a necessary addition (no arenas).

If the Ram plates are useful people will start using them, If the axes get useful (Somehow) people will start using them, Anything that gets "fixed" will be used.
Instead of just putting ants into your bot you will have the choice of putting 4 other kinds... Instead of razors you could put axes, It gives you more options & Flexibility, Without adding components.

This is a much larger project than you are passing it off as. Most of the collision meshes are oversimplified (for lag reasons), all the components would need to be rebalanced, and making more realistic skins requires quite a bit of time per skin (it took me roughly 30 minutes per skin in stock).

So yeah, basically I lost my hope in DSL3, It looks awesome as & Kudos to Click for working on it & Making it so awesome, But its just taking too long you know?
Not to pressure or anything but its gonna be long since its released, It looks like its FAR AWAY from done (Or atleast were not getting the good news about its 98% Completion)

Because it looks to be so far away is why Im suggesting this...

Its a nice idea but it seems like too big of an overhaul especially when you consider that DSL3 could use the assistance instead.