Debate: Are you ready to die?

[Pwnator]

I have no reason to believe that there will be any sort of second life after I die. I am perfectly content with this life being my only life. Since this is my only shot at greatness, so to speak, I would like to accomplish many things. To date, there is still much to accomplish, so death will have to hold off for a bit.

Eeeeh Frezal stole my words. So yeah, what he said. :P

[G.K.]

^^Likewise^^

[123savethewhales]

So my debate is: Do you think that today's human population is justified in it's desire to live so long?

Why do we need to justify what we want?  Too used to our money system perhaps?

And yes, I fear death, and I can't tell you why.  When someone point a gun at me, I get scare without thinking.  And I will not justify it because it happens below the rational level, so any answers I can give you in words are bullsh**.

[Rolo]

Yesterday at the bar, the following occured, pretty ontopic:

A big guy came in, slapped somebody on his shoulder and drank his drink (I supposed they were friends)
The lil guy started crying uncontrollably. The big guy looked sorry and confused and said "Hey, it was just a joke, I can buy you a new one if you want", then, the guy started telling a very touching story.

Turned out he attempted multiple suicides today. He tried hanging himself, but the ceiling collapsed on his weight. "Then," he added, still sobbing, "I've been waiting on the railroad track for over an hour for a train to come, turned out I'm on an unused track". Then, when the big guy is about to buy the poor guy a new drink, he added: "Then, when I'm finally ready to actually kill myself, you come in and drink my poison!"

[G.K.]

...That actually happened?

[Thyrus]

I often ask myself why we`re doing all this?
We work the whole day or go to school. The daily life is full of stress just do save the next day or the next year. We work as would we life forever but live could be over in a second.

that`s just something I had in mind.
also this:

I`m not afraid of death, but I`m afraid of dying.

[lloopp D lloopp]

I would not like to die.
I mean, would anyone?
I have only ever been to one country where they speak a different language.(France)
I still have a lot to expierence.

[Rolo]

...That actually happened?

 

[Reier]

Read this whole thing before judging it.


Anyway, I am a Christian. I won't get into a debate why I belive that, but I do believe there is an afterlife. You will either go to heaven if you accept Christ or go to hell if you don't. Some people say "Well I don't believe in a god who would make people to hell blah blah!" Well, it ain't God's fault we goofed up. He can't stand evil. And if you say "Then he's really unfair and he doesn't care about us if he does exist!" then you really don't understand how many chances God has granted us. I mean he died for his creation. Seriously, would you sacrifice yourself for what to him is like a microbe? And about being unfair; God gave us a free choice to live in this utopia and be perfect or to choose to do evil - guess what we chose. So don't go blaming God for when we blew it, it's not his fault.


That being said, I really have no deep fear of death like the secular world out there, because I am content knowing I will go to heaven, and I really hope everyone will make the same choice; but I don't think that's going to happen. I don't have a death wish and I don't really want to die - I am a bit scared of dying (I am a human after all), but I am not terrified of ceasing to exist like you guys, because I know I won't. And let me tell you, Hell is so much worse than not existing. If you are there, you will so want to cease to exist, but you can't.


Another thing - I don't buy into the crud of "Do what you like while you're here because it's all the time we've got!" because God specifically states to not do certain things which many people put as "fun", or "cool". And deep down, you will not be satisfied - no matter how much you try to convince yourself or others - unless you accept Christ. I don't believe you guys are or will be content unless you accept Him, no matter what you say.


Don't get after me for going "religious" on you guys - this is about death/the afterlife, and therefore discussion about religion is inevitable. I'm also not claiming Christians are perfect or anything, because we are human too. Humans make mistakes. But God is a God of love and he will forgive us if we repent.




Seeing as I apparently am the only Christian (or non-athiest for that matter) in this topic, I'm sure I will have some....comments. I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability, but don't get out of hand please. I don't want to see the insults fly from either side. Thanks.


Reier

[G.K.]

Nicely said Reier.

[Reier]

I had a reply to the post Rolo deleted but I lost it. Ah well.

Some posts that stood out to me:

How did I know this would become a thread sooner or later. God's idea is to live life to its fullest, when you die you get more time to finish off that list of amazing things you always wanted to do. So IMO the question should be "Are you ready to live?" because society is caught up in other people's success that instead of wanting to play football with some buddies you are watching the Raiders fail hard with a beer in your hand. If you live longer, then that's an excuse to turn on TMZ to learn some fake bullsh*t about life in the fast lane. I could see listening to music different, but going to every concert or reading a ton of books based on some weird A$$ movie is un-exceptable. In my life I:
*List of accomplishments*
None of these things were caught up with the entertainment of controversy or drama. I am not ready to die a follower, I am ready to live a leader.

Whoa, whoa. You've said you're a Christian, right? What do you mean by it's "God's idea is to live life to the fullest"? God has no problem with having fun or anything, but I just want to know if you mean a secular definition.

To avoid death, one must learn to accept it, for it is only the next great adventure.

........What? What do you believe exactly...?

I have a short but sweet idea of life and death. You live life, and live it however you want to. Don't let anyone tell you how to live it, whether they tell you to make the most of it or be easygoing. As long as you enjoy the life you live, that's all that matters.

And in my mind there is no afterlife, so don't plan for one...

WARNING: DEEP POST AHEAD


I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?
I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?
If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.







~~~~~~frezal/S32/Serge: No "what's it like in your little world?" type posts if you please.

[System32]

I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?
I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?
If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.

tl;dr reier failed all of the three main sciences in the funniest way possible.
 
Let me do a short bullet point version of life and logic.
 
1) Earth born.
 
2) Hot stuff happens, meteors crash with chemicals and water.
 
3) Earth cools so we have a soup of chemicals at the correct temp. Acids, Alkali's, metals... pretty chaotic.
 
4) Large chemicals are formed, meanwhile, Lightning from the atmosphere ****s sh** up and stuff happens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Earliest_atmosphere
 
5) Some sorta science-y ass-pull happens here. Complex chemicals and lots of reactions. A good comparison is breathing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Primordial_soup.22_theory
 
6) Some time later, life gets going and the going gets tough.
feel something? if yes, RUN MO FO!
 
7) More complex thought, mainly involving sex and food.
 
8) More advanced feelings, taste, pain, heat...
 
9) MORE advanced feelings, mainly problem solving for avoidence.
 
10) Social stuff.
 
11) Mix them all up and you get self awareness. (and logic was there, too!)

[frezal]

I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?

For the survival of the species. Because we have a desire to survive and spread, we instinctually know that killing each other is "wrong". If we kill each other at random, we will die off. If we steal from each other, we will cause others to kill us. As social creatures, we've relied on our group skills to survive, and to develop.

I think you believe in macro-evolution,

Macro-evolution is scientific fact. Even the pope (John Paul 2: The Revenge) admitted to this.

so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people?

I don't think we should "punish". Rehabilitation is what I preach, but that's another topic.

After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar.

Baking soda isn't a member of our species, nor is it even a living entity.

So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?

You're rather oversimplifying what we are. Even if you don't view biology as a legitimate science, you must recognize that we are, in fact, made out of "chemicals". (We're carbon-based, to be more specific.) Why is it that we need god's permission to act civil? If you were unaware of Christianity, would you be robbing and stealing? What does that say about you, if that's the case?

If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe.

Why can't logic exist in a material world. Our brains are proportionally much larger than any other species on Earth. Why do you find it so unfathomable that we can't outthink other creatures without the assistance of an invisible tyrant? I don't feel as though I need permission to think.


 

Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible.

Some people do have different "rules of logic". You and I, for instance, think very differently from each other. There is a huge logical fallacy coming up in your next chunk of text, for instance.

The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer.

SO because you don't understand how the brain functions, there must be a supernatural being? Suppose that's true, what gave this super natural being the ability to think? Your solution only brings about an infinite loop of questions. As a staunch believer in Occam's Razor, I can't accept your overly complex explanation.
 

The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.

The Big Bang explains how this current universe came to be. It does nothing to explain how our brains evolved. You're combining multiple theories, and not understanding any of them.


If the universe was "intelligently designed", the intelligent source wasn't too intelligent. Why so much empty space? Why is the universe expanding away from itself at an accelerating rate if no "bang" occurred? Why did this intelligent creator create Smith's Cloud which is set to wipe out the Milky Way in 40 million years? Why even bother making an entire universe and solar system when we're the only ones who matter? It's overly complex for something built by a supposed intelligent being.

~~~~~~frezal: No "what's it like in your little world?" type posts if you please.

You know I'm capable of far more than that.


Now some questions for you:


If we have another life, why bother doing anything in this life? You'll live forever anyway, so why even bother going to the doctor?


If God sets the rules and enforces them upon death, why should we bother doing anything about it? The bad people (atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists, etc.) will be burned literally forever, and the good people (adherents of your particular brand of Christianity) will live forever while being forced to worship a supernatural being. Where is heaven, by the way? You'd think somebody would have found it by now.


If you need god's permission to think, do you really think for yourself? Is there really such thing as free will if god already know what you're going to do before you do it?


What about chimps? They can clearly think. They have funerals, use tools, and do many of the same rituals that we do. Do they also have god's permission to think, or did they just evolve a complex neurological system as a means of surviving?

[Reier]

tl;dr reier failed all of the three main sciences in the funniest way possible.
 
Let me do a short bullet point version of life and logic.
 
1) Earth born.
 
2) Hot stuff happens, meteors crash with chemicals and water.
 
3) Earth cools so we have a soup of chemicals at the correct temp. Acids, Alkali's, metals... pretty chaotic.
 
4) Large chemicals are formed, meanwhile, Lightning from the atmosphere **cks sh** up and stuff happens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Earliest_atmosphere
 
5) Some sorta science-y ass-pull happens here. Complex chemicals and lots of reactions. A good comparison is breathing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Primordial_soup.22_theory
 
6) Some time later, life gets going and the going gets tough.
feel something? if yes, RUN MO FO!
 
7) More complex thought, mainly involving sex and food.
 
8) More advanced feelings, taste, pain, heat...
 
9) MORE advanced feelings, mainly problem solving for avoidence.
 
10) Social stuff.
 
11) Mix them all up and you get self awareness. (and logic was there, too!)

A few flaws:
1) You say TL:DR, yet you post a response? What? How do you even know what I said if you didn't read it?
2) You say I failed the 3 main sciences in the funniest way possible, yet you don't explain how. That's pretty arbitrary.
3) Logic is not the same as Self-awareness. And let me hear what your definition of logic is please, then I will respond. Tell me clearly, because I'm so stupid...
4) You really didn't answer the question. I was asking about why atheists should be moral, you just gave me your view of how the earth was made.
5) Is Wikipedia your ultimate standard? It's written by a bunch of people around the world, it's far from perfect. And if you say "most people believe it, so it must be true!", you are committing the fallacy of false appeal to the majority.


I won't respond anymore today, I'm beat.

[frezal]

I won't respond anymore today, I'm beat.

Beat? So soon?

[Reier]

As in tired. I woke up early.

[123savethewhales]

For the sake of arguments.

I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?

Because the strongest king/group of kings gets to decide.  Why?  Because they can, and that's what happens in the physical world.  We call them the Government.

I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?

What punishment?  We are just putting a bunch of chemical in a 8 by 8 container so it doesn't leak.  Why?  Because we are physical entities.  We move like clockworks, govern by past events and random variables (quantum fluctuations).  Physicalism denies the existence of free will.

If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.

"Logic" is merely a pattern of letter associated with observable physical states.  I see images, I hear sounds, my brain try to make synaptic connection to organize them.  I fail to see where the process becomes immaterial.  After all, you too have a physical brain.

[frezal]

As in tired. I woke up early.

But it's only... what time zone are you in again?

[Reier]

Mars.

[frezal]

Mars.

The good part or the bad part?