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Off-Topic => Chatterbox => Topic started by: Jack Daniels on February 16, 2010, 08:49:14 PM

Title: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Jack Daniels on February 16, 2010, 08:49:14 PM
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/92911rip.jpg)
I am not looking to make this a one vs one debate. Everyone is welcome to chime in...

I think it will be constructive that way if we can be civil.The forum seems to be at a loss of a good debate currently.

I want to stir one up with something that has been on my mind. This will be a kinda long read... But I think that the actual people who want to have a civilized debate will read it through.

A few days ago, I was browsing some pictures on photobucket and came across a picture of a man with most of his face missing.  Yeah, missing.  No nose, upper mouth or most of his forehead.  It had a caption for a website and I became curious.  I visited the site and read the story about him.  Turns out, he developed a rare form of cancer that spread along his face.  The only way he could live was that the doctors had to surgically remove all of the stuff I mentioned earlier that was missing in the picture.  The long, painful, process they had to do after that was surgery after surgery of skin grafts/implants and repairs to his face to make him resemble a human being again.  It has taken an incredible amount of time and money to accomplish this.  The website, is a plea for help because of the amount of debt that has amounted from all the medical expenses incurred. The most current photos of him resemble a human being, but he looks nothing like his former self.  He now has a very fragile face that must be cared for to prevent infection. (and you thought getting the sniffles was bad?)

So, I ask you.  Are you ready to die? Why are we so compelled to put off death as much as possible?  Why do people visit hospitals week after week asking for pills and surgeries to allow them to squeeze another year out of their ailing 90 year old bodies?  This is why health insurance is so expensive... because so many people want to live for so long that they are addicted. Absolutely ADDICTED to avoiding the afterlife.  Where is the justice when some young person dies innocently in a violent car accident while 20 miles away a man is resting in a hospital because all he did was not take care of his body for 40 years yet he wants to live 40 more?  It is this mindset that has made us so vulnerable to expensive doctors bills and 4 out of 10 commercials on TV advertising some drug that will make you better in some way that will ultimately lead to a longer life. Centuries ago... the average lifespan was somewhere to the tone of 30 years old.  Living longer than that was considered extraordinary and different.  People knew that they could very well die at 30 so they accomplished as much as they could within that time.  They made families, raised children, collected wealth, etc etc.  They took advantage of the time that was given to them because it was precious and limited. 

Look at us now?  People lazily put off so many things nowadays because they know they will live tomorrow and the next and the next.  How do they know this? They have faith in medicine and doctors making it all better.  Sure, why not, take your time! Tell somebody you love them next week because we all know you are going to live until then right? .... right?  In the fears thread on GTM some of you listed "death" as something you fear.  Why?  Are you afraid of the afterlife? are you afraid of not being able to be a human again? We, honestly, don't know or understand what happens after you die... so why fear it?  What if it is great? What if you come back and simply try again? What if you just hop onto a different line of time as yourself again and you get to carry on like a universal videogame "continue" option?

So my debate is: Do you think that today's human population is justified in it's desire to live so long?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sage on February 16, 2010, 09:04:39 PM
I'm afraid of death because I have a nagging doubt in my mind that there really is no afterlife. I mean, to die would be to cease to exist. You would just be gone. I don't want that to happen.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: System32 on February 16, 2010, 09:05:44 PM
Do you think that today's human population is justified in it's desire to live so long?

No.
 
"No Death, no Life."
I took this quote because it's true. The wonders of life are pointless without death.
 
I've been writing a story about a dimension that has portals linked with earth, and anyone from any time can be picked and thown into it. Nobody dies there, and the fact everyone is immortal is one of the major subjects.
 
"This is what I call hell. Anything needed becomes a commodity. You could starve an eternity, and the relief of death will never come. I could slice your chest open, and fill it with salt, and you'll have to live with it."
 
I'll embrace it. I don't care. I'm not going to change the world, it's already ****ed.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Natef on February 16, 2010, 09:15:14 PM
This is my personal 'idea':

I feel people try to expand their lifespan because they think the wold will be better in the future, to others, death is something they look foreward too, so they won't have to deal with the problems in the future.

This is serious:

I sometimes wish death on myself. I wish that I could see life would be like without me. I am very modest, and don't think too that full of myself. I don't think I am the best at anything, I do doubt I am good at anything. I don't know if I'm good at building bots on RA2, or if I'm 'popular' on Youtube. I have low expectations of myself.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: kill343gs on February 16, 2010, 09:29:44 PM
People, coupled with their own doubts about the validity of the existence of the afterlife, are also afraid of leaving their families or friends behind. Ever notice they usually come to peace with the idea of actually dying after sitting and talking with their families and in some cases finding god? We as a race are left hanging in our final moments, which can make them very difficult until such an event of "epiphany" occurs.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Virus Bomb on February 16, 2010, 09:33:24 PM
A reason that people are afraid of death is that they don't know what to expect when it actually happens. They don't know what it would feel like to die. Another reason would be that death could come at anytime. I could die 80 years from now, or I could die tomorrow.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: russian roulette on February 16, 2010, 09:33:32 PM
How did I know this would become a thread sooner or later. God's idea is to live life to its fullest, when you die you get more time to finish off that list of amazing things you always wanted to do. So IMO the question should be "Are you ready to live?" because society is caught up in other people's success that instead of wanting to play football with some buddies you are watching the Raiders fail hard with a beer in your hand. If you live longer, then that's an excuse to turn on TMZ to learn some fake bullsh*t about life in the fast lane. I could see listening to music different, but going to every concert or reading a ton of books based on some weird A$$ movie is un-exceptable. In my life I:
1. Was the first to get a job in my school
2. Learn guitar with my own money
3. Go bungie jumping in South America (own money)
4. Get my family out of bankruptcy
5. Get a girlfriend that had the same belief about life as me
6. Win the Syracuse NY Battle of the Bands 2006
7. Graduate Valedictorian of my High School
8. Play Stairway all the way through, all seven minutes, no mistakes.
9. Smash my friends PS3 for the hell of it.
None of these things were caught up with the entertainment of controversy or drama. I am not ready to die a follower, I am ready to live a leader.


Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sage on February 16, 2010, 09:40:30 PM
^ Nice, more than I have done. Of course, I'm not out of high school yet :P
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Natef on February 16, 2010, 09:41:50 PM
I don't think I've ever done anything 'amazing'.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Resetti's Replicas on February 16, 2010, 10:28:45 PM
I suppose this was directed more towars the older members, but it seems that some of the younger emebers are joing in, so I'm going to go ahead and say... Hell no I'm not ready!  I'm still in college and I hate it; the only thing keeping me going is the promise of reaping the benefits someday; I'm not even considering the posssibility that death could strike  anytime.  I'm keeping myself healthy and out of harm's way of course, but I'm not going all-out to make sure everything would be in order if I suddenly dropped dead.   

Even if I'd done amazing things like Russian, I know I'd always find some new ambition or desire.  Thought it's not nearly as extravagant, my thing is replica building, at this very moment, I am contemplating doing a replica of The Predator; I don't know if I'll "know" when I'm dead, but if I did, I would be pretty sad about not being able to finish it.  As soon as I finish The Predator, another robot will take its place.  As long as I have a replica I want to do, I can't see myself being ready to pass on.

There were over 500 robots in Robot Wars, and I won't be satisfied until I make all the replicas humanly possible.  Not to mention that I'm considering doing those from Robotica, Battlebots, and US robot Wars once I exhaust the British supply.  I have a rough idea of what I can and can't do, but based on what Click has shown us about DSL 3, that game will vastly widen my horizons.

Now, I have bigger goals in life than just this, this isn't my entire life mapped out, but this was the one example that I thought most people would understand, as well as the best for illustating my point.

Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: trumpetguy on February 16, 2010, 10:40:54 PM
Nobody is ever ready, everyday a new thing would come, something you haven't done. Thats why people say you have to live life to the fullest. So, no.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 16, 2010, 10:47:01 PM
I have no reason to believe that there will be any sort of second life after I die. I am perfectly content with this life being my only life. Since this is my only shot at greatness, so to speak, I would like to accomplish many things. To date, there is still much to accomplish, so death will have to hold off for a bit.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: R1885 on February 16, 2010, 11:05:55 PM
To avoid death, one must learn to accept it, for it is only the next great adventure.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Urjak on February 16, 2010, 11:11:40 PM
I have a short but sweet idea of life and death. You live life, and live it however you want to. Don't let anyone tell you how to live it, whether they tell you to make the most of it or be easygoing. As long as you enjoy the life you live, that's all that matters.

And in my mind there is no afterlife, so don't plan for one...
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Naryar on February 17, 2010, 01:44:38 AM
Finally an intelligent thread... there are not a lot of them created these days...

The fear of death - i do believe it exists because of both of our survival instinct plus our fear of the unknown.

Anyways, there are a good bunch of things i would miss and i do not wish to die so soon, but after all is it really worth it living at the fullest and trying to achieve greatness when death will take you one day, sooner or after ? I just think i'll live on, but that last question has no answer from me, so i'm not really afraid of death, though if i degenerate physically or mentally and end as a cripple/idiot, there will be fewer reasons for me to live and i might actively seek death.

And i am not planning on afterlife as well since i have absolutely no reason to believe there is one.

Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Stagfish on February 17, 2010, 03:05:29 AM
on the news not long ago, a Mother killed her son because she wanted him to rest in peace because the Doctors kept him alive as a vegetable.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on February 17, 2010, 03:15:29 AM
on the news not long ago, a Mother killed her son because she wanted him to rest in peace because the Doctors kept him alive as a vegetable.
Huh?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: G.K. on February 17, 2010, 03:16:34 AM
as in a vegative state for exprriments.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Stagfish on February 17, 2010, 03:17:26 AM
it means he cant do anything whatsever, not even think
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on February 17, 2010, 03:17:40 AM
Oh, so not as a GM parsnip.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Pwnator on February 17, 2010, 03:27:14 AM
I have no reason to believe that there will be any sort of second life after I die. I am perfectly content with this life being my only life. Since this is my only shot at greatness, so to speak, I would like to accomplish many things. To date, there is still much to accomplish, so death will have to hold off for a bit.


Eeeeh Frezal stole my words. So yeah, what he said. :P
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: G.K. on February 17, 2010, 03:37:16 AM
^^Likewise^^
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: 123savethewhales on February 17, 2010, 05:09:13 AM
So my debate is: Do you think that today's human population is justified in it's desire to live so long?
Why do we need to justify what we want?  Too used to our money system perhaps?

And yes, I fear death, and I can't tell you why.  When someone point a gun at me, I get scare without thinking.  And I will not justify it because it happens below the rational level, so any answers I can give you in words are bullsh**.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Rolo on February 17, 2010, 05:42:26 AM
Yesterday at the bar, the following occured, pretty ontopic:

A big guy came in, slapped somebody on his shoulder and drank his drink (I supposed they were friends)
The lil guy started crying uncontrollably. The big guy looked sorry and confused and said "Hey, it was just a joke, I can buy you a new one if you want", then, the guy started telling a very touching story.

Turned out he attempted multiple suicides today. He tried hanging himself, but the ceiling collapsed on his weight. "Then," he added, still sobbing, "I've been waiting on the railroad track for over an hour for a train to come, turned out I'm on an unused track". Then, when the big guy is about to buy the poor guy a new drink, he added: "Then, when I'm finally ready to actually kill myself, you come in and drink my poison!"
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: G.K. on February 17, 2010, 05:43:29 AM
...That actually happened?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Thyrus on February 17, 2010, 06:02:40 AM
I often ask myself why we`re doing all this?
We work the whole day or go to school. The daily life is full of stress just do save the next day or the next year. We work as would we life forever but live could be over in a second.

that`s just something I had in mind.
also this:

I`m not afraid of death, but I`m afraid of dying.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: lloopp D lloopp on February 17, 2010, 07:11:20 AM
I would not like to die.
I mean, would anyone?
I have only ever been to one country where they speak a different language.(France)
I still have a lot to expierence.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Rolo on February 17, 2010, 07:49:00 AM
...That actually happened?

 :bigsmile:
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Reier on February 17, 2010, 09:56:54 AM

Read this whole thing before judging it.


Anyway, I am a Christian. I won't get into a debate why I belive that, but I do believe there is an afterlife. You will either go to heaven if you accept Christ or go to hell if you don't. Some people say "Well I don't believe in a god who would make people to hell blah blah!" Well, it ain't God's fault we goofed up. He can't stand evil. And if you say "Then he's really unfair and he doesn't care about us if he does exist!" then you really don't understand how many chances God has granted us. I mean he died for his creation. Seriously, would you sacrifice yourself for what to him is like a microbe? And about being unfair; God gave us a free choice to live in this utopia and be perfect or to choose to do evil - guess what we chose. So don't go blaming God for when we blew it, it's not his fault.


That being said, I really have no deep fear of death like the secular world out there, because I am content knowing I will go to heaven, and I really hope everyone will make the same choice; but I don't think that's going to happen. I don't have a death wish and I don't really want to die - I am a bit scared of dying (I am a human after all), but I am not terrified of ceasing to exist like you guys, because I know I won't. And let me tell you, Hell is so much worse than not existing. If you are there, you will so want to cease to exist, but you can't.


Another thing - I don't buy into the crud of "Do what you like while you're here because it's all the time we've got!" because God specifically states to not do certain things which many people put as "fun", or "cool". And deep down, you will not be satisfied - no matter how much you try to convince yourself or others - unless you accept Christ. I don't believe you guys are or will be content unless you accept Him, no matter what you say.


Don't get after me for going "religious" on you guys - this is about death/the afterlife, and therefore discussion about religion is inevitable. I'm also not claiming Christians are perfect or anything, because we are human too. Humans make mistakes. But God is a God of love and he will forgive us if we repent.




Seeing as I apparently am the only Christian (or non-athiest for that matter) in this topic, I'm sure I will have some....comments. I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability, but don't get out of hand please. I don't want to see the insults fly from either side. Thanks.


Reier
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: G.K. on February 17, 2010, 10:00:52 AM
Nicely said Reier.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Reier on February 17, 2010, 12:21:06 PM
I had a reply to the post Rolo deleted but I lost it. Ah well.

Some posts that stood out to me:



How did I know this would become a thread sooner or later. God's idea is to live life to its fullest, when you die you get more time to finish off that list of amazing things you always wanted to do. So IMO the question should be "Are you ready to live?" because society is caught up in other people's success that instead of wanting to play football with some buddies you are watching the Raiders fail hard with a beer in your hand. If you live longer, then that's an excuse to turn on TMZ to learn some fake bullsh*t about life in the fast lane. I could see listening to music different, but going to every concert or reading a ton of books based on some weird A$$ movie is un-exceptable. In my life I:
*List of accomplishments*
None of these things were caught up with the entertainment of controversy or drama. I am not ready to die a follower, I am ready to live a leader.
Whoa, whoa. You've said you're a Christian, right? What do you mean by it's "God's idea is to live life to the fullest"? God has no problem with having fun or anything, but I just want to know if you mean a secular definition.


To avoid death, one must learn to accept it, for it is only the next great adventure.
........What? What do you believe exactly...?



I have a short but sweet idea of life and death. You live life, and live it however you want to. Don't let anyone tell you how to live it, whether they tell you to make the most of it or be easygoing. As long as you enjoy the life you live, that's all that matters.

And in my mind there is no afterlife, so don't plan for one...
WARNING: DEEP POST AHEAD


I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?
I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?
If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.







~~~~~~frezal/S32/Serge: No "what's it like in your little world?" type posts if you please.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: System32 on February 17, 2010, 01:47:15 PM
I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?
I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?
If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.

tl;dr reier failed all of the three main sciences in the funniest way possible.
 
Let me do a short bullet point version of life and logic.
 
1) Earth born.
 
2) Hot stuff happens, meteors crash with chemicals and water.
 
3) Earth cools so we have a soup of chemicals at the correct temp. Acids, Alkali's, metals... pretty chaotic.
 
4) Large chemicals are formed, meanwhile, Lightning from the atmosphere ****s sh** up and stuff happens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Earliest_atmosphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Earliest_atmosphere)
 
5) Some sorta science-y ass-pull happens here. Complex chemicals and lots of reactions. A good comparison is breathing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Primordial_soup.22_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Primordial_soup.22_theory)
 
6) Some time later, life gets going and the going gets tough.
feel something? if yes, RUN MO FO!
 
7) More complex thought, mainly involving sex and food.
 
8) More advanced feelings, taste, pain, heat...
 
9) MORE advanced feelings, mainly problem solving for avoidence.
 
10) Social stuff.
 
11) Mix them all up and you get self awareness. (and logic was there, too!)
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 17, 2010, 01:57:09 PM
I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?
For the survival of the species. Because we have a desire to survive and spread, we instinctually know that killing each other is "wrong". If we kill each other at random, we will die off. If we steal from each other, we will cause others to kill us. As social creatures, we've relied on our group skills to survive, and to develop.

I think you believe in macro-evolution,
Macro-evolution is scientific fact. Even the pope (John Paul 2: The Revenge) admitted to this.


so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people?
I don't think we should "punish". Rehabilitation is what I preach, but that's another topic.


After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar.
Baking soda isn't a member of our species, nor is it even a living entity.


So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?
You're rather oversimplifying what we are. Even if you don't view biology as a legitimate science, you must recognize that we are, in fact, made out of "chemicals". (We're carbon-based, to be more specific.) Why is it that we need god's permission to act civil? If you were unaware of Christianity, would you be robbing and stealing? What does that say about you, if that's the case?

If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe.
Why can't logic exist in a material world. Our brains are proportionally much larger than any other species on Earth. Why do you find it so unfathomable that we can't outthink other creatures without the assistance of an invisible tyrant? I don't feel as though I need permission to think.


 
Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible.
Some people do have different "rules of logic". You and I, for instance, think very differently from each other. There is a huge logical fallacy coming up in your next chunk of text, for instance.


The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer.
SO because you don't understand how the brain functions, there must be a supernatural being? Suppose that's true, what gave this super natural being the ability to think? Your solution only brings about an infinite loop of questions. As a staunch believer in Occam's Razor, I can't accept your overly complex explanation.
 
The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.
The Big Bang explains how this current universe came to be. It does nothing to explain how our brains evolved. You're combining multiple theories, and not understanding any of them.


If the universe was "intelligently designed", the intelligent source wasn't too intelligent. Why so much empty space? Why is the universe expanding away from itself at an accelerating rate if no "bang" occurred? Why did this intelligent creator create Smith's Cloud which is set to wipe out the Milky Way in 40 million years? Why even bother making an entire universe and solar system when we're the only ones who matter? It's overly complex for something built by a supposed intelligent being.

~~~~~~frezal: No "what's it like in your little world?" type posts if you please.
You know I'm capable of far more than that.


Now some questions for you:


If we have another life, why bother doing anything in this life? You'll live forever anyway, so why even bother going to the doctor?


If God sets the rules and enforces them upon death, why should we bother doing anything about it? The bad people (atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists, etc.) will be burned literally forever, and the good people (adherents of your particular brand of Christianity) will live forever while being forced to worship a supernatural being. Where is heaven, by the way? You'd think somebody would have found it by now.


If you need god's permission to think, do you really think for yourself? Is there really such thing as free will if god already know what you're going to do before you do it?


What about chimps? They can clearly think. They have funerals, use tools, and do many of the same rituals that we do. Do they also have god's permission to think, or did they just evolve a complex neurological system as a means of surviving?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Reier on February 17, 2010, 02:42:25 PM

tl;dr reier failed all of the three main sciences in the funniest way possible.
 
Let me do a short bullet point version of life and logic.
 
1) Earth born.
 
2) Hot stuff happens, meteors crash with chemicals and water.
 
3) Earth cools so we have a soup of chemicals at the correct temp. Acids, Alkali's, metals... pretty chaotic.
 
4) Large chemicals are formed, meanwhile, Lightning from the atmosphere **cks sh** up and stuff happens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Earliest_atmosphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_atmosphere#Earliest_atmosphere)
 
5) Some sorta science-y ass-pull happens here. Complex chemicals and lots of reactions. A good comparison is breathing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Primordial_soup.22_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#.22Primordial_soup.22_theory)
 
6) Some time later, life gets going and the going gets tough.
feel something? if yes, RUN MO FO!
 
7) More complex thought, mainly involving sex and food.
 
8) More advanced feelings, taste, pain, heat...
 
9) MORE advanced feelings, mainly problem solving for avoidence.
 
10) Social stuff.
 
11) Mix them all up and you get self awareness. (and logic was there, too!)


A few flaws:
1) You say TL:DR, yet you post a response? What? How do you even know what I said if you didn't read it?
2) You say I failed the 3 main sciences in the funniest way possible, yet you don't explain how. That's pretty arbitrary.
3) Logic is not the same as Self-awareness. And let me hear what your definition of logic is please, then I will respond. Tell me clearly, because I'm so stupid...
4) You really didn't answer the question. I was asking about why atheists should be moral, you just gave me your view of how the earth was made.
5) Is Wikipedia your ultimate standard? It's written by a bunch of people around the world, it's far from perfect. And if you say "most people believe it, so it must be true!", you are committing the fallacy of false appeal to the majority.


I won't respond anymore today, I'm beat.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 17, 2010, 03:18:10 PM
I won't respond anymore today, I'm beat.
Beat? So soon?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Reier on February 17, 2010, 03:19:00 PM
As in tired. I woke up early.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: 123savethewhales on February 17, 2010, 03:20:48 PM
For the sake of arguments.

I like you a lot buddy, but I don't think you've thought this through. Let me explain.
In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? Why is it wrong to steal or even murder?
Because the strongest king/group of kings gets to decide.  Why?  Because they can, and that's what happens in the physical world.  We call them the Government.

Quote
I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? How can chemicals be angry at all?
What punishment?  We are just putting a bunch of chemical in a 8 by 8 container so it doesn't leak.  Why?  Because we are physical entities.  We move like clockworks, govern by past events and random variables (quantum fluctuations).  Physicalism denies the existence of free will.

Quote
If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. Please respond, I want to hear your comeback.
"Logic" is merely a pattern of letter associated with observable physical states.  I see images, I hear sounds, my brain try to make synaptic connection to organize them.  I fail to see where the process becomes immaterial.  After all, you too have a physical brain.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 17, 2010, 03:33:04 PM
As in tired. I woke up early.
But it's only... what time zone are you in again?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Reier on February 17, 2010, 03:33:57 PM
Mars.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 17, 2010, 04:12:45 PM
Mars.
The good part or the bad part?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Stagfish on February 17, 2010, 05:27:47 PM
lol

i am not scared of death but when you die is the scary bit
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Somebody on February 17, 2010, 06:53:16 PM
I am not necessarily afraid of death, however I am afraid of dying young or painful. I would never have a death wish no matter how bad life gets, because it can only get better from there. I have so much I want to do in my future. Get my license, build a robot, become an engineer, complete college, etc.
My grandpa died of a condition called myelofibrosis. In a nutshell, it makes your bone marrow stop producing red blood cells. Gradually your body cannot absorb the oxygen. I would be scared of dying a death where you can physically breath in as much as you want, but slowly asphyxiate by a lack of red blood cells. That would be a terrible way to go.

However I do believe in  the afterlife, because I know that there is a possibility it exists. I know that I will get to see my grandpa again. Along with my other grandpa and the rest of my family.

Think about it:
So many people with near death experiences see lost relative. There must be something!
And the laws of physics can be broken. The wings of a bee are simple, and they actually are supposedly too small to make the bee fly. It flies however.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Rolo on February 17, 2010, 07:13:09 PM
lol

i am not scared of death but when you die is the scary bit

True
I'm not afraid of death, it's the dying part that worries me.
I wouldn't be afraid to jump off a tall building, I'd be afraid of the landing..
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: SKBT on February 17, 2010, 07:15:30 PM
This might be mean and result in insults but when it is time to go it is time to go. If the population keeps increasing with more and more people living longer and not dieing there will be over population and something will have to give. Resources, space, crops.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Urjak on February 17, 2010, 08:30:52 PM

I like you a lot buddy (Thank you, I like you to).

In this worldview, if everyone is their own king, then why have laws? (Because when strictly dealing with your own enjoyment of life, no one else really matters. I acknowledge my worldview does not work for an organized society, and that laws ensue the society functions).

 Why is it wrong to steal or even murder? (Because that ruins life for other people).

I think you believe in macro-evolution, so answer me this; if we are just a random bunch of chemicals, why should we "punish" people? (Because we have created a concept called morality. It doesn't exist in the natural world, we created it, its artificial. I don't know why... we as a society simply have it. In the natural world, an animal will do anything it can to survive. When we created "morality" and laws, we enforced them through punishment. It's not a matter of whether or not we should, we just do...).

After all, we wouldn't send baking soda to jail for reacting with vinegar. So why should we be angry for a bunch of chemicals destroying another bunch of chemicals? (Again, artificial morality).

 How can chemicals be angry at all? (They can't).


If everything is material, then how could we have laws of logic? (We created them, we define "logic" as we define it. The material universe has no comment on what humans define as "logical").

 We know they exist because I am coming up with a comeback just now. Laws of Logic can't exist in a totally material universe. (In a world without humans? Yes, you are absolutely right).

Also, Laws of Logic do not vary from person to person. (They do, but only slightly. We have been taught by society what "logic" is, and we can alter it slightly, but cannot truly differentiate from what we have been repeatedly taught).

If they did, arguing would be totally impossible. The only way they could exist is if we had an intellegent Designer. (You are right, the intelligent designers are humans. We, and we alone define what "logic" is).

 The Big Bang couldn't create laws of logic because the Big Bang was hypothetically material. (The big bang did not. We as humans did).

Well, there's my response. I look forward to seeing what yours is.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Naryar on February 18, 2010, 02:05:44 AM
@Reier: I want a few logical proofs that God is real.

Did you ever saw him or experimented him ? Can you even think of a way to try and prove he is real ?

Or are you just following what you have been told/taught when younger ?

Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Rolo on February 18, 2010, 05:49:06 AM
Mars.
The good part or the bad part?

The caramel filled part

Also: Atheists vs christians, round 8592
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: 123savethewhales on February 20, 2010, 04:28:40 AM
I want a few logical proofs that God is real.
If the universe in infinite, then a being resembling the description of God must exist, and a God greater than him, and on and on.  In fact anything that is physically possible must exist, with an infinite amount of copies.

If the world is finite, and if the cosmic microwave background prediction to the size of our universe is accurate, then the chance of life such as us existing randomly within the 13 billion years, even from the most optimistic predictions, are nowhere near 100%.  In a sense than to say we happen randomly isn't anymore logical than some kind of intelligent design.

As of today, the chances of intelligent life (such as us) existing is an open question, as demonstrated by the Fermi Paradox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Of course, that is not to say that some form of God, if exist, has anything to do with Christianity.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Naryar on February 20, 2010, 05:08:53 AM
Drake equation, eh ?

If the universe in infinite, then a being resembling the description of God must exist, and a God greater than him, and on and on.  In fact anything that is physically possible must exist, with an infinite amount of copies.

Why should an infinitely large universe should necessarily have an infinite diversity ? There IS a possibility of God existing, but i will not say it MUST exist.

And your point, while clever, is purely theorical.







Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: 123savethewhales on February 20, 2010, 11:11:03 PM
Drake equation, eh ?

If the universe in infinite, then a being resembling the description of God must exist, and a God greater than him, and on and on.  In fact anything that is physically possible must exist, with an infinite amount of copies.

Why should an infinitely large universe should necessarily have an infinite diversity ? There IS a possibility of God existing, but i will not say it MUST exist.

And your point, while clever, is purely theorical.
You need to understand a bit about infinity mathematics to understand why infinite universe MUST create infinite amount of physically possible arrangements.

It's not hard to see if you put it into a standard mathematical equation.  When you flip a coin, your chance of getting head is 1/2, you flip a coin twice you get 3/4, if you flip an infinity amount of times, chances of getting a head will be 1.  Or take lotteries, a very rare chance to win, but with enough people participating, you get a winner eventually.  Unfortunately that's what happens when you deal with infinity in math, you got an infinite amount of lottery participants, you end up with an infinite amount of winners.

This is why you don't see cosmologist/physicist working with infinity, it's a monstrosity, it's not a real number, and many believe it can't be how our world is.

As to density, quantum activities ensures that true vacuum cannot exist as long as there are space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle)

And here's an article on multi-verse if you are interested, in this we are dealing with level 1 multi-verses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse)

So which position would you take, an infinite universe or a finite one?  It obviously has to be one of the 2.  Or would you continue to dodge the argument by calling it theoretical?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Urjak on February 20, 2010, 11:29:22 PM
I personally think the universe is finite. I think it is rapidly expanding, but does not go on forever, and thus all possible arrangements do not have to be present.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: 123savethewhales on February 21, 2010, 12:05:50 AM
I personally think the universe is finite. I think it is rapidly expanding, but does not go on forever, and thus all possible arrangements do not have to be present.
I would say that's the more accepted model.  The 13 billion years old universe; the one with the 100 billion stars per galaxy and 100 galaxies.  They also make more sense since at least they are indirectly observable.  But to say we exist by pure chance in this case will require us to know the chances of at least 1 planet with complex life existing in a finite world, and to resolve the Fermi Paradox.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Rolo on February 21, 2010, 12:19:42 AM
I might've cared more if there was any chance I could form an opinion on anything else than things I hear other people say.

Yeah, I'm agnostic.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Clickbeetle on February 21, 2010, 06:44:14 PM
Drake equation, eh ?

If the universe in infinite, then a being resembling the description of God must exist, and a God greater than him, and on and on.  In fact anything that is physically possible must exist, with an infinite amount of copies.

Why should an infinitely large universe should necessarily have an infinite diversity ? There IS a possibility of God existing, but i will not say it MUST exist.

And your point, while clever, is purely theorical.


Quote from: Douglas Adams
in an infinitely large Universe such as, for instance, the one in which we live, most things one could possibly imagine, and a lot of things one would rather not, grow somewhere.


And another related quote.


Quote from: Douglas Adams
It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.


As for the original topic here, I'm not "ready" to die because I think I still have a purpose here, but I'm not especially worried about it.  If I'm right and there is a God and a Heaven, then I get to live forever and everything's cool.  And if I'm wrong and this short life is all there is, well then I'll just cease to exist and I'll never know that I was wrong, so it won't matter.  It's a no-lose situation.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sparkey98 on February 21, 2010, 06:46:42 PM
I personally have proof of an after life, of some sort, so I'm not woried.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Resetti's Replicas on February 21, 2010, 07:30:09 PM
You have actual, undeniable, tangible, solid evidence?  The entire scientific and theological communities would be all over you if they knew, dare I ask what your proof might be?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 21, 2010, 07:31:41 PM
If I'm right and there is a God and a Heaven, then I get to live forever and everything's cool.  And if I'm wrong and this short life is all there is, well then I'll just cease to exist and I'll never know that I was wrong, so it won't matter.  It's a no-lose situation.
What if the Muslims, Zoroastrians, or one of the other various non-Christian religions were the right one?


I personally have proof of an after life, of some sort, so I'm not woried.
Please share.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sparkey98 on February 21, 2010, 07:39:47 PM
When I was about 5, a few months after my uncle, my favorite person in the world, passed away, me and my grandma were taking a walk, and we both saw him, same position, on the same bench, same time, same day, he even waved to us, then vanished. It's not the usual "one person saw him and the other imagined it" or "we were both loopy from sadness" thing, we both saw him. I'm not making this up. So that's my proof, that even if there is no heaven, there is an afterlife.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Jack Daniels on February 21, 2010, 07:44:02 PM
While I hadn't really intended for this topic to spur some more religion debates. I do understand how it is essentially inevitable for the two debates to intertwine. I, personally, do not follow or practice any particular religion myself. Like Rolo, I consider myself to be agnostic. While I do respect what others believe and follow (that IS the purpose of free will, to believe what they want) I also observe others and how they conduct themselves in their respective religions.

I spent an entire year reading and studying the Bardo Thodol (the Tibetan Book of the Dead).  The book is, essentially, a guide to prepare for the afterlife and the ceremonies that take place during and leading up to the death experience.  The belief structure is based very keenly on Buddhism. With that, there is the also the Buddhist belief that there are many many many Gods. And each of them represent different things. Depending on how you conduct yourself during your life you will face different gods in the afterlife. When you are presented to those gods in the afterlife you will be judged.  Fascinating indeed.  The part that I found the most valuable in reading the Bardo Thodol is that it puts a strong emphasis on taking responsibility for your actions every day.  Putting the best effort you can into being peaceful and enjoying the gift of life while you have it.

It is argued in the book that other cultures adopted similar beliefs but simplified the whole she-bang by dividing the afterlife into Heaven and Hell.  Because human beings have this horrible desire to separate things into Black and White answers without shades of gray.  This is why religious stalwarts end up making pretty harsh judgements upon others because they try desperately to line up their "right and wrong" with "black or white" beliefs and core values.  And... even more unfortunately, there is a huge segment of the religious population that basis their core values based on what they were taught by their leaders.  This is when you get extreme people killing in the name of Allah. I mean c'mon really? Do you really think that Allah wants you to kill other human beings so much?  Seriously, if there is an afterlife and people have to answer to Gods about what they did... there there are going to be a ton of confused human beings in the afterlife wondering why they are in so much trouble.

So anyways, most of your answers are awesome.  There is no right or wrong answer to this debate.  Most of you expressed that you got more to accomplish in life before you die. Excellent! Accomplish those things. Don't slow down.  I thought it was actually funny that Sonny said I was possibly directing this debate at the older people on the forum. I actually hadn't really considered directing it at anyone in particular.  But I did want you all to think about it.  Death... is inevitable. What you do before then is very much in your control.

Narrator: [Tyler steers the car into the opposite lane and accelerates] What are you doing?
Tyler Durden: Guys, what would you wish you'd done before you died?
Ricky: Paint a self-portrait.
The Mechanic: Build a house.
Tyler Durden: [to Narrator] And you?
Narrator: I don't know. Turn the wheel now, come on!
Tyler Durden: You have to know the answer to this question! If you died right now, how would you feel about your life?
Narrator: I don't know, I wouldn't feel anything good about my life, is that what you want to hear me say? Fine. Come on!
Tyler Durden: Not good enough.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 21, 2010, 07:44:10 PM
When I was about 5, a few months after my uncle, my favorite person in the world, passed away, me and my grandma were taking a walk, and we both saw him, same position, on the same bench, same time, same day, he even waved to us, then vanished. It's not the usual "one person saw him and the other imagined it" or "we were both loopy from sadness" thing, we both saw him. I'm not making this up. So that's my proof, that even if there is no heaven, there is an afterlife.
One natural explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_hallucination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_hallucination)
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sparkey98 on February 21, 2010, 07:47:02 PM
*facepalm*
 
I was trying to explain it was not that, my grandma recalled the postistion he was in, and that's what I saw. I know there is an afterlife :/
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 21, 2010, 09:32:36 PM
*facepalm*
 
I was trying to explain it was not that, my grandma recalled the postistion he was in, and that's what I saw. I know there is an afterlife :/

How can you come to that conclusion when there are so many variables involved? If we were to independently observe two separate people (without us knowing we weren't watching the same person) and then collaboratively compare what we saw, we would likely come up with the same descriptions. There simply isn't much that varies from person-to-person.


Since both of you knew your uncle well, that muddies things up more. I would bet dollars to donuts that most of the descriptions of the phantom on the bench came from memories from the past. How could you both hallucinate this at the same time? Like you said, you were 5, and your uncle was your favorite person. You wanted more than anything to believe that your uncle was still around and safe.

There's also the fact that your brain lies to you. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/opinion/29iht-edwang.1.14069662.html) To be clear, I'm not saying that what I've written is for sure what happened. There are far too many variables involved, and I quite simply wasn't there. I'm just presenting another possible explanation that doesn't involve the supernatural.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Pwnator on February 21, 2010, 11:18:08 PM
Narrator: [Tyler steers the car into the opposite lane and accelerates] What are you doing?
Tyler Durden: Guys, what would you wish you'd done before you died?
Ricky: Paint a self-portrait.
The Mechanic: Build a house.
Tyler Durden: [to Narrator] And you?
Narrator: I don't know. Turn the wheel now, come on!
Tyler Durden: You have to know the answer to this question! If you died right now, how would you feel about your life?
Narrator: I don't know, I wouldn't feel anything good about my life, is that what you want to hear me say? Fine. Come on!
Tyler Durden: Not good enough.


I love that book (and the film as well).


Also, the link frezal posted is kinda kewl. COKE IS A PAINT THINNER! XD
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sparkey98 on February 22, 2010, 06:42:04 PM
well, I've still had other presences that make me beleive there is an afterlife, there is. I've seen my uncle many other times, I won't even be thinking about him and he apears.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: ACAMS on February 22, 2010, 07:15:59 PM
I've seen my uncle many other times, I won't even be thinking about him and he apears.

Drunk and trying to have sex with you?
 
 
he apears.

It is appears
 
 
 
 
Quote from: Sparkey98
(https://gametechmods.com/Pics/unpossible.jpg)
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Jack Daniels on February 22, 2010, 07:31:24 PM
*ACAMS picking on Sparkey*

Reported! Wait... uhm... I just reported ACAMS to ACAMS.  That's not going to get me very far.  :P

Seriously though, don't derail this thread. It's one of the rare ones that actually doesn't royally suck.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 22, 2010, 09:49:04 PM
well, I've still had other presences that make me beleive there is an afterlife, there is. I've seen my uncle many other times, I won't even be thinking about him and he apears.
Take a photo of him the next time he appears. If you are actually seeing him and not imagining him, a camera will be able to capture his image.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: russian roulette on February 22, 2010, 10:10:46 PM
How bout reincarnation, that crap creeps me out. There is less than a percent chance you would even be on earth (if there is another humanoid planet(s)). I'm sticking with good ol' heaven. That would be great. Yet there is so much to accomplish in society, I'd wish I would live to see the world as era by era progresses.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 22, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
How bout reincarnation, that crap creeps me out. There is less than a percent chance you would even be on earth (if there is another humanoid planet(s)). I'm sticking with good ol' heaven. That would be great. Yet there is so much to accomplish in society, I'd wish I would live to see the world as era by era progresses.
Reincarnation would be pointless as we clearly don't remember anything from past lives. As for heaven, the Biblical heaven, no thanks. If I wanted to be forced to worship an egomaniac, I'd move to North Korea.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: russian roulette on February 22, 2010, 10:22:11 PM
IMO the people on MTV's Buried Life are doing what anyone would do. That is what life is about, making the best of every moment until it is over (for the arabs, 79 virgins is overkill).
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Naryar on February 23, 2010, 02:56:05 AM
It's 72

And reincarnation > heaven... if both exist, and that i doubt.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Flying_Chao on February 23, 2010, 02:54:24 PM
Reincarnation is the same as getting amnesia and turning into a baby who is nothing like you. Heaven hasn't actually been described, it is only been said to be better than hell.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Avalanche on February 23, 2010, 03:08:05 PM
I am not redy to die.Nuff said.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sparkey98 on February 23, 2010, 03:30:04 PM
well, I've still had other presences that make me beleive there is an afterlife, there is. I've seen my uncle many other times, I won't even be thinking about him and he apears.
Take a photo of him the next time he appears. If you are actually seeing him and not imagining him, a camera will be able to capture his image.

I just can't expect you to beleive it, it's a see it or belive it thing. And I don't think he'd want me posting pics of him on the internet without his permisian, and trust me, if i ever get visited by him, can i pozt u on teh interwebz/ is the last thing I'll say. The last I'll say probabley is "A-Are, yo-" then wake up on the floor houw later.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Flying_Chao on February 23, 2010, 03:33:45 PM
Who says he has to know?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: GoldenFox93 on February 23, 2010, 03:35:05 PM
Reincarnation is the same as getting amnesia and turning into a baby who is nothing like you. Heaven hasn't actually been described, it is only been said to be better than hell.
To me, Heaven is what people themselves imagine it to be like. Their own personal paradise, in other words.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 23, 2010, 05:07:19 PM

I just can't expect you to beleive it, it's a see it or belive it thing.
Provide a photo of your uncle's ghosts and I'll open up to the possibility of ghosts existing. You will also gain worldwide fame as you'll be the first person to ever provide any legitimate evidence indicating that ghosts exist.


And I don't think he'd want me posting pics of him on the internet without his permisian, and trust me, if i ever get visited by him, can i pozt u on teh interwebz/ is the last thing I'll say.
He wouldn't want you gaining fame and riches for being the first person to prove that ghosts exist? Why wouldn't he? Just take a picture and post it. If he objects to it, you can always apologize later.


The last I'll say probabley is "A-Are, yo-" then wake up on the floor houw later.
Wait... You wake up on the floor hours later after seeing him? Have you considered the possibility that you're just dreaming when you see him?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Sparkey98 on February 23, 2010, 05:11:00 PM
Sarcasm, my friend
 
how would I know to have my camera when he shows up? huh? like I said, I can't expect you to understand.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on February 23, 2010, 05:33:35 PM
Sarcasm, my friend
 
how would I know to have my camera when he shows up? huh? like I said, I can't expect you to understand.
Keep a camera on hand. Or say, "Hey, wait here a second. I want to fundamentally change every branch of science!"


Does your uncle's ghost wear clothes, by the way? If so, what's the practicality of that, and how did he obtain them?
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on March 04, 2010, 02:28:02 PM
Sorry to drag this thread back, but I found an interesting link relating to Sparkles's seeing of his uncle.
http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/12/i_see_dead_people.php
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Naryar on March 05, 2010, 02:43:25 AM
Sorry ? This thread is interesting.

Ghosts do NOT exist excepted in imagination... period.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Scourge of teh Galaxy on March 05, 2010, 09:47:36 AM
Here's my perception of the facts.

Ghosts are the imprints someone close to you leaves on your mind. It's fine if they're there, but if they're not, you start to long for them. That longing creates a part of your mind/soul/imagination which you perceive as them.

I do something almost the same as this, except I do it as a defence mechanism and I use my emotions to create imaginary friends based on anime characters (I am insane, dude).

So, basically, what I'm saying is ghosts are imaginary friends of your deceased kin.




And, on the debate: I have a terrible fear of death. To be more precise, the pain involved in death. It terrifies me to the core. I'd rather die naturally.

But I won't be stuck on life support just to keep living. No, sir, because that is just SCARY.

If I was in that man's position, I would've let myself die. Ops are too painful - mentally more than physically.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: JoeBlo on March 05, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
death itself kinda scares me a little

I mean if there is no after life what happens to you ? its not like your sitting in a coffen with your eyes closed.. you cant think of anything, see, do, feel at all your just cut off??

I dont know if Im thinking into this to hard but its just a concept I can properly think of ?? just not exsisiting

seriously think about it hard enough.. its harder then you think to pull your head around it.. what happens to you.. form your point of view
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Scourge of teh Galaxy on March 05, 2010, 10:57:01 AM
i know what'll happen to me if I die of old age.

I'll've withdrawn into myself so much that life will be the same as death.

The place where you're happiest.

It's a dreamworld, imo.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Naryar on March 05, 2010, 11:06:40 AM
Ops ? Are you talking about surgery ?

i know what'll happen to me if I die of old age.

I'll've withdrawn into myself so much that life will be the same as death.

The place where you're happiest.

It's a dreamworld, imo.

...That is really weird reasoning...
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Scourge of teh Galaxy on March 05, 2010, 11:07:47 AM
But I am weird, Sir Naryar.

It's the way I think ^^;
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: d-lark on March 13, 2010, 12:45:51 AM
A fear of death is nor irrational, nor can I say is it completely rational. Death is the one final, the one absolute, It could happen to me seconds after I hit reply, it may not happen for the next 80 years. A fear of death is irrational simply because it cannot be avoided, it is a truth. Its rational because it is scary it is final no one comes back from death. I would like to say that if I knew I was going to die in the next 2 minutes I would die happy, that is not true, there is too much I haven't done, too much I want to do and experience before I leave. Ive often wondered if Old people die simply because they have done everything they wish to do, and its time for them to leave, they even know they are going.

On ghosts, maybe maybe not, I haven't ever had any sort of unexplained thing happen to me leading me to believe they are not true.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: G.K. on March 13, 2010, 07:39:37 AM
That is a very nicely put input d-lark.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Larrain on March 13, 2010, 07:45:47 AM
That is a very nicely put input d-lark.
Yeah.

I don't fear of death either. But like Scourge said, I fear of the pain involved in death, if there is any.

I also fear of falling from very high. I don't fear of spiders, dark, ghosts, or etc, but falling.
I sometimes look at the roof of *thinks* a mall. If it's too high (2 floors over the one I'm in for example) I can't walk properly, because it's like I'm falling, but I'm not. I start walking like there was no floor where I put my foot over. Like fearing of tripping on nothing. Solution is to look somewhere else than the roof.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: d-lark on March 14, 2010, 01:05:38 AM
gotta cliche' it but: A fear of falling is irrational, a fear of hard ground, now that my friend is rational.

Why would dieing hurt? (like unless you die violently or with a disease as all too many people do now) The worst hurt I can imagine from dieing is the pain of regret.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Rolo on March 22, 2010, 05:52:09 PM
Ghosts are very real. They just freeze and turn invisible when you look at them. They are visible when you turn your back on them, they can actually move.

Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Reier on March 22, 2010, 06:10:00 PM
Provide a photo of your uncle's ghosts and I'll open up to the possibility of ghosts existing. You will also gain worldwide fame as you'll be the first person to ever provide any legitimate evidence indicating that ghosts exist.

How would that prove it? Someone would just call Photoshop. Besides, your argument in simply the fallacy of proof by lack of evidence. AKA You can't prove you saw your uncle, therefore you didn't. While I highly doubt Sparks saw his dead uncle, he could just as easily say 'Prove I didn't see him', and that would leave anyone stumped because you can't prove something doesn't exist.


BTW, I'm going to respond to your response back a few pages back. Maybe tomorrow. No offense, but it was kind of easy to refute. :S
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on March 22, 2010, 06:27:15 PM
How would that prove it? Someone would just call Photoshop.
I would analyse the hell out of the photo, but it would at least be some evidence. If I saw no sign of tampering, I'd begin to consider his claims as being valid (though more intensive tests would be required before I could fully believe).
 
Besides, your argument in simply the fallacy of proof by lack of evidence. AKA You can't prove you saw your uncle, therefore you didn't. While I highly doubt Sparks saw his dead uncle, he could just as easily say 'Prove I didn't see him', and that would leave anyone stumped because you can't prove something doesn't exist.
Problem: the burden of proof isn't on me. The burden of proof is on those asserting the claim. The claim being asserted is that ghosts exist. Sparkles's evidence is that he sees his uncle. I've provided alternate theories that don't rely on the supernatural as a counter. Since this alternate theories haven't been ruled out, it isn't logical to say that ghosts exist. You can remain agnostic, if you wish, but I prefer to not open up until there is some real evidence. My stance on ghosts is the same as my stance on the Loch Ness Monster: unless somebody can convincingly tell me how it can exist and then provide evidence showing that it does exist, I see no reason to assume that it does.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on March 22, 2010, 06:28:46 PM
Ghosts are very real. They just freeze and turn invisible when you look at them. They are visible when you turn your back on them, they can actually move.

Apology for the double post, but I think Rolo deserves some sort of medal for his post.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Resetti's Replicas on March 22, 2010, 07:06:52 PM
Ghosts are very real. They just freeze and turn invisible when you look at them. They are visible when you turn your back on them, they can actually move.



RRRRRT!!! RRRRRT !!!!!!!  You know what that is?  That's my zinger alarm.

Also I built Predator, so I guess the "before I die" thing is a real motivator.  I should start using it more often.
Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: Jack Daniels on March 22, 2010, 07:34:46 PM
I prefer to not open up until there is some real evidence. My stance on ghosts is the same as my stance on the Loch Ness Monster: unless somebody can convincingly tell me how it can exist and then provide evidence showing that it does exist, I see no reason to assume that it does.

Do you employ this mindset toward things that you feel are fantastical or in general?  When you think about it... every last perception that each human being has can be traced back to a beginning where it was experienced first. 

I am going to go out on a limb here and call this "the cheeseburger theory"

Sometime, long ago, a person created a cheeseburger.  He/she ate it and said: "Wow, this is really good. I must tell the people how terrific a cheeseburger is."  That person might have told hundreds of people and some of them said: "Cheeseburger? Bah! Never seen one, nor have I ever heard how good they are before. I don't trust you and I wont try your cheeseburger."  However, over time, word spread and eventually mankind warmed up to this cheeseburger.  Eventually, culture reached a point where everyone (one way or another) had tried a cheeseburger and could develop a general concept opinion of it.  But the initial exposure to it had to start from somewhere.

Now, really, a cheeseburger is a far cry from a ghost.  But the deterring basis of your disbelief is that you have not been proven solidly that they exist.  By your own experience or by word of mouth from somebody that you respect enough to forge your opinions based on their experiences (somebody close).  I suppose, also, that a cheeseburger is a more solid thing that could be easily experienced by choice vs ghosts which (to our knowledge) have never been available for us to experience willingly and regularly. 

I suppose that is the line that draws the sides... objective vs subjective experience.  One can experience the visit of a ghost, but we seemingly do not have the power to share that experience with others in a solid way.  A cheeseburger? take a bite and share it with your bud! It's damn good.

This also came to mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

Title: Re: Debate: Are you ready to die?
Post by: frezal on March 22, 2010, 07:50:03 PM
Do you employ this mindset toward things that you feel are fantastical or in general?
In general. To save screen real estate, I have removed the rest of your post from the quote, but wish to still address it. With the invention of the cheeseburger, people at first may have said, "I don't know. It doesn't sound very tasty." But the inventor could easily give the skeptics a taste and either prove or disprove the worthiness of his new food. If those who assert the existence of ghosts can "give me a taste" of them, my stance will likely change. To date, nobody has ever "given a taste" of ghosts.