Damage

[freeziez]

Does this apply to stock aswell? Meaning hammers are good in stock!?

Yes it does apply, and no hammers still suck in stock.

*Quietly changes all my stock bots*

I learnt that Razor Tips are the most damaging weapon in DSL. Am I wrong? 

I think that irons are better, for some reason. But I lieks razors moar. :)

[NFX]

Razor tips are the best weapons in DSL as long as, like anything else, they are used correctly. Razor tips are a popup's best friend. Whereas a hammer rammer will probably beat a similarly designed razor rammer.
 
And Nary says Irons aren't very good in DSL. Small Beater & Light DS Tooth is a better use of the 10kg.

[Sage]

so... what about hammers on a motor?

[Badger]

so... what about hammers on a motor?

It means you're making a VS.

[JoeBlo]

^ It is highly recommended your don't make replys such as the above in response to serious questions ^

Concussion is double Piercing in static terms but piercing becomes stronger when in movement (axle/flail, spin motor, burst, etc)

so... what about hammers on a motor?

Hammers are a concussive weapon.. they gain nothing from spin motors... yes plain and simple, Hammers on a VS are no different from statically rammed into opponents..

as 123 noted, SnSnS designs can gain the same effects with simple 360 axle's then using motors.. there is no difference.

Does this apply to stock aswell? Meaning hammers are good in stock!?

beyond this damage calculation.. they still suck..

http://beetlebros.gametechmods.com/ra2stats.htm

one of the worst (if not the worst) damage to weight ratio in Stock

[123savethewhales]

so... what about hammers on a motor?

Well, then you get about 500-1000 damage with 3 concussion on a dual perm plus the ram factor......  Whereas with 2.18 piercing you get around 3000 - 6000.  I mean it's no secret that VS with razor or ds light deals way more damage than a sledge one even prior to this.

The inconvenient factor is that if you swing your hammer with dual perm onto a static razor, you deal your 1000 damage while they return 6000.  It's no wonder why sledge VS tends to lose their hammers 20 second into the match.

That said, concussion should not be taken lightly on DSL.  Because with the 1 to 1.893 ratio that click sets, each concussion DP generates 3.786 times the momentum damage than piercing DP does.  If you take full advantage of this (example, see Yoda's first bot), you can generate some pretty outrageous damage with concussion.

In Stock though, the Iron Spike might be better for 36HS than mace.

[Trovaner]

A while back, I wanted to figure out the relationship that the material values had with Click's damage formula. What I did instead was find discrepancies riddled throughout what we believed to be the damage formula. Although I had planned to release a more complete study in the Mythbusters thread, this sorta took root early. Since most of you now know that the formula was a little inaccurate, I decided to just to release what I have and let you guys use it as you will...

Arena Settings:
-Elasticity = 0
-Friction = 1
-Gravity = 9.809980
-self.SetSubMaterial('arena_collision','metal',0)
-plus.magicMobility(False)

Component Settings
-type = extras
-base = Component
-hitpoints = 10000
-fracture = 10000
-mass = 10
-concussion = x (if variable; otherwise not listed in TXT)
-pierce = x (if variable; otherwise not listed in TXT)
-material = metal(x) (if variable; otherwise not listed in TXT)

hitpoints - I set it high so that I would see a difference when all other values are low
fracture - I set it high so that I would see a difference when all other values are low
frequency - N/A (problems testing with current setup)
mass - N/A (problems testing with current setup)
normals - Does not impact the damage formula (tested separately)
model (pointy or not) - Does not impact the damage formula (tested separately)

Bot Settings:
-ChassisHP = 628
-Botlab Weight = 56.7 (includes 10kg sheet)
-plus.getWeight(BotID) = 56.7087936401 (this is sometimes very different from that of the Botlab) (includes 10kg sheet)

Misc:
-I used the pause button throughout the countdown to prevent any lurches after completion (after the bots are loaded of course so that I'm not the reason for the lurch)
-I press the pause button as soon as I see the chassis bounce (certain combinations continue to deliver damage after settling onto the other bot)

Basically I modified the Ant Arena to drop one bot on top of the other (green arrow). It also was programmed to print the BotID and HP (chassis and sheet) when I ended the game.

========= Testing =========
Additional Conditions/Stats:
-DropDistance = 6.19933 (measured by the bottom of upper bot's component to top of lower bot after settling into ground (I used plus.rayTest(XYZ-StartingLocation, XYZ-EndingLocation)))
-DropVelocity = 11.02675 (if calculated the same way as in reality)

Code: (Formating of Data) [Select]

Variable
ChassisHP, CompHP (of Lower Bot)
ChassisHP, CompHP (of Upper Bot)
Summary


Code: (Control) [Select]

No Variables Assigned
628, 10000
628, 10000
0, 0


Code: (GroupA: Low Value Combinations) [Select]

1 Concussion
628, 10000
628, 10000
0, 0

1 Pierce
628, 10000
628, 10000
0, 0

Metal(1)
542.7, 10000
628, 10000
85.3, 0

1 Concussion + 1 Pierce
628, 10000
628, 10000
0, 0

1 Concussion + Metal(1)
542.66, 10000
628, 10000
85.34, 0

1 Pierce + Metal(1)
542.64, 10000
628, 10000
85.36, 0


Code: (GroupB: Medium Value Combinations) [Select]

10 Concussion
542.62, 10000
628, 10000
85.38, 0

10 Pierce
628, 10000
628, 10000
0, 0

Metal(10)
-226.39, 10000
854, 628, 10000
854.39, 0

10 Concussion + 10 Pierce
542.7, 10000
628, 10000
85.3, 0

10 Concussion + Metal(10)
-7905.07, 10000
628, 10000
8533.07, 0

10 Pierce + Metal(10)
-225.72, 10000
628, 10000
853.72, 0


Code: (GroupC: High Value Combinations) [Select]

100 Concussion
-226.39, 10000
628, 10000
854.39, 0

100 Pierce
628, 10000
628, 10000
0, 0

Metal(100)
-7910.17, 10000
628, 10000
8538.17, 0

100 Concussion + 100 Pierce
-225.61, 10000
628, 10000
853.61, 0

100 Concussion + Metal(100)
-852996.25, 10000
628, 10000
853624.25, 0

100 Pierce + Metal(100)
-7893.31, 10000
628, 10000
8521.31, 0


Concussion(100)/100 = 8.5439
Concussion(10)/10    = 8.538
Concussion(1)/1       = 0 (this is right)

Pierce(100)/100 = 0
Pierce(10)/10    = 0
Pierce(1)/1       = 0

Metal(100)/100 = 85.3817
Metal(10)/10    = 85.438
Metal(1)/1       = 85.3

Strangely, it doesn't look like piercing is doing anything. I made sure that it wasn't a variable that I took out (such as wheel traction, base, type, etc.) but there was no change. This could explain why the EXE converts the chassis' concussion value into HP (although settable, the puncture value and heat value of chassis armor don't seem to do anything). A odd little factoid is that they used the image labelled "icon_puncture.tga" for the concussion value.

You may have also noticed that the concussion and metal values have very similar values. With the only exception being concussion(1), this leads us to believe that the damage was rounded down or there is a minimum value that must be reached. This uncanny relationship between concussion and metal suggests the following provable relationship:
Concussion(10) = Metal(1)
Concussion(100) = Metal(10)
With that in mind, we are able to deduce that the default value for metal is 1/10 of concussion's default.

Concussion(1) and Metal(1) = Metal(1)
Concussion(1) = 0
This tells us that concussion defaults to 1 and if our previous observation is correct, metal's default is 0.1. By increasing the altitude of my starting location, I was able to prove the accuracy of the defaults mentioned previously. By leaving out the defaults in one TXT and including what I believed to be the defaults in another, I could compare the damage.


There must also be a floor/minimum value for damage because concussion(1) didn't deliver any damage. Further testing showed this assumption to be true and that damage had to be greater than 10HP. This floor value prevents us from making weapons that heal the opponent.


On a side note, there also was no change in the amount of damage delivered when I changed the types and bases of the components (meaning that the values were the same). Theoretically, this means that a wheel could be used as a weapon (the HP is gonna kill you though...).  This could also explain why the chassis is capable of delivering damage but I wouldn't recommend using it as a weapon :P.

While testing, I noticed that although the velocity was a constant (at each height), the damage still varied slightly. With little else to explain it, I concluded that the game was using a random number generator.

So some of you must already be wondering about the other materials besides metal (rubber and arenium). Believe it or not, they are exactly the same in a component against chassis situation (the value is all that matters and they all default to 0.1). Additionally, GMFs with damaging materials don't appear to take into account the material type or value for that matter (rubber seemed to receive the same amount of damage as metal and arenium). Component to component situations on the other hand are quite a bit different and I don't have enough information on them to say anything for certain (they seem to be using a different formula than component to chassis situations).

I understand that momentum would be better than velocity in terms of determining damage (momentum=velocity*mass) but mass couldn't possibly be used with my current formula being so accurate. I have the mass at the top if anyone want to try to disprove this.

Everything was retested at least 3 times each and I did many more tests that didn't make it into this post (it was WAY to much especially when I know that most people just want to hear the conclusions). Even with all my testing, there may be some mistakes in these notes due to the fact that I was deleting like crazy in an attempt to simply/shorten things.

These are the defaults that I was able to derive:
concussion = 1 (for all types and bases)
pierce = 0 (as far as I know, this is the default but it doesn't impact the comp vs chassis scenarios so I didn't bother doing more testing on this)
material = ???(0.1) (the value is the same for all types and bases but the material type doesn't matter except in comp vs comp scenarios)

In component against chassis situations, this formula gives a rough estimate of damage delivered:
Damage = Concussion*MaterialValue*7.75*Velocity
when the damage is greater than 20 (this means no weak/healing weapons)

Edit: Added the picture that I forgot...

[123savethewhales]

One thing you should highlight or put in bold was that you are using a COMPONENT......  You will be surprise to find out how many reader might skip the preparation spoiler and end up having no idea what you are talking about.

metal(0.1), default concussion = 1, default piercing = 0 all matches the tests that I ran, so I can confirm that.

Funny momentum+pierce deals no damage to chassis at all.

[Clickbeetle]

But obviously razors do damage to the chassis. 


This is all very confusing.

[123savethewhales]

Trov did a drop test, which is only a part of the damage equation.  Note earlier that 2 things determines damage, the momentum (Trov's drop test) and axle speed.  When you put razors on a burst motor or flail they will easily kill a chassis in no time.

[Clickbeetle]

But they also do damage to the chassis on rammers.  Which only use momentum if I'm figuring this right.

[123savethewhales]

Razor has 0.2 concussion.

Also, if you mount it on skirt hinge some of it's momentum becomes axle speed, though not nearly as much as free axles.  When you stack 30 or 40 razors you are bout to generate 1000 damage, whereas full speed hammer ram can generate past 10k.

Personally I never ran the test Trov did, that's just how I made sense of his findings.  I ran weapon vs weapon test.  In there, piercing deals half the momentum damage as concussion point by point.

[Clickbeetle]

Razor has 0.2 concussion.

Not in stock... they have 1 piercing and 0 concussion.  Yet you can still KO bots with a razor rammer or pole spike rammer.
 
Or... maybe it's the metal(0.1) doing the damage?  Still, that low a value should deal pathetic damage.

[123savethewhales]

No, metal doesn't add damage.  It's a multiplier.

[Clickbeetle]

So clearly there is something else going on here, because stock razor rammers will do damage to the chassis.
 
*thinks*
 
Something to do with wheels then?  Must fiddle around with some test bots.

[Trovaner]

I'm positive there is more to the damage formula than what I posted... I'm thinking there must also be a constant that gets multiplied against the velocity (not momentum). If this is true, I believe it would be merely in addition to what I posted. There is quite a bit that still needs to be accounted for before we will have a one-size-fits-all formula.

[Clickbeetle]

OK I was doing some messing around with some test bots to find out how piercing and concussion relate to each other.


I made a rammer and a horizontal spinner each with three custom weapons which I could set the stats on separately.  I tested several combinations of rammer, spinner, piercing weapons, and concussion weapons and adjusted the piercing or concussion values on one of the weapons until the two bots scored approximately equal points and were both de-weaponed at the same time.  This gives an approximate damage ratio between piercing and concussion.


The results:


Piercing rammer vs. Concussion rammer:
1.8 piercing = 1 concussion


Piercing HS vs. Concussion HS:
1 piercing = 2.2 concussion


Piercing HS vs. Piercing rammer:
1 piercing = 1 piercing


Concussion HS vs. Concussion rammer:
1 concussion = 1 concussion


Piercing HS vs. Concussion rammer:
1 piercing = 1.8 concussion


Concussion HS vs. Piercing rammer
1.8 concussion = 1 piercing


I used a custom motor for the HS as well which I could adjust the speed on.  These results were the same for any speed 10-40 and probably higher speeds as well (there is a lot of difference between 10 and 40 speed but no difference in damage ratios).


Conclusions:


- The old DP formula DP = 183.9 P + 100C is still approximately correct for cases involving moving weapons against static weapons.  It is also still correct for cases of moving weapons against non-weapons (as shown by my original tests in developing that formula).


- The piercing/concussion ratio is apparently reversed in cases involving static weapons against other static weapons.  This is consistent with 123's tests.


- The piercing/concussion ratio is even higher than 1.839 in cases involving moving weapons against other moving weapons.


Practical bot building conclusions?


- Under the old DP formula, piercing weapons are better on spinners and concussion weapons are better on rammers.


- If piercing and concussion are treated as equal, piercing weapons are always better except in rammer vs. rammer battles.


Component balancing conclusions?


- Components will have different balance depending on whether they are moving or static.


- The only way to make all components 100% balanced is to use the same ratio of piercing/concussion on all of them (Might not be a bad idea to just use pure concussion, as this would nerf the damage bonus to flail weapons).

[JoeBlo]

- The only way to make all components 100% balanced is to use the same ratio of piercing/concussion on all of them (Might not be a bad idea to just use pure concussion, as this would nerf the damage bonus to flail weapons).

I did a similar thing to Backlash after talks with 123, we were going to keep it on the down-low as we didn't want debates of realism, but as all piercing weapons gain a boost from spinning and concussion doesnt, we dropped the concussion value for Backlash weapons..

so you can use them as static but they will deal more damage as spinners.. which is the point of the mod all in all..

[Sage]

- The only way to make all components 100% balanced is to use the same ratio of piercing/concussion on all of them (Might not be a bad idea to just use pure concussion, as this would nerf the damage bonus to flail weapons).

perfect.

[Clickbeetle]

as all piercing weapons gain a boost from spinning and concussion doesnt, we dropped the concussion value for Backlash weapons..

so you can use them as static but they will deal more damage as spinners.. which is the point of the mod all in all..

Note my piercing HS vs. piercing rammer test though.  In that case both bots were de-weaponed at the same time with equal weapons.  So piercing weapons ONLY gain an advantage when spinning against concussion weapons and non-weapons.


Simply put, it seems that piercing gets the boost if EITHER bot has spinning weapons--it doesn't matter if the piercing weapons are on the spinner or getting hit by the spinner.


And if BOTH bots have spinning weapons, then piercing gets an even bigger boost.