ARBBC AI Pack! (Now Released!!)

[ianh05]

Just use my previous LW for the 6th bot.

I don't have it, send it my way?

[Pwnator]

Ah, crap. Forgot about that lol

https://gametechmods.com/Robot_Exchange/LW/Pwnator_Pettifoggery.bot

[ianh05]

Pwn's 6th bot has been added to the AI pack and preview pic on the first page.

[RpJk]

Ian take my MW Psynergetic Vortex from the bot exchange.


I can not send it because I'm on my vita right now as I won't have acess to a computer until tomorrow.

[kill343gs]

OK, after much thought given I officially have a problem with the premise of this 'Official GTM AI Pack.' Now before anybody goes and gets all upset, allow me to explain.

With the title this AI pack is given, being the Official GTM AI, the notion is conveyed that this AI pack is supposed to be representative of the GTM community as a whole, and the work of the individual members thereof. However, it would appear that based on a handful of things that the work being done here is not wholeheartedly a representation of GTM or its userbase.

First of all, based on given previews, the UI is completely unrelated to the community. Black and gold with flames? Last I checked GTM was either symbolic of the original RA2 forum with its lighter theme, or a very simple black theme. I'm not saying that the UI absolutely needs to match the website, but when Gametechmods.com comes to my mind I don't picture skulls and flames and rock and roll.

Secondly, I feel that based on restrictions the users who are submitting teams are not being properly represented. I understand that for various reasons, bots and team names, etc, are being used directly from the ARBBC. I get that. It's fine. But to tell a user that they aren't allowed to change a bot out of their team because they submitted a set team for a tournament is ridiculous. I understand that you want there to be the widest variety of weightclasses for the player to fight, but here's the thing; Ian is basically the only person in the history of forever to build sub-light categories consistently. Nobody is going to be upset just because Kill343gs's team doesn't have an AW on it. Think about it. When someone mentions the name Sage or InfiniteInertia, do you picture 125kg chicken drill bots? Absolutely not. Not even a topic of conversation. The fact is, antweights are not a proper representation of 99% of the GTM userbase. If my name is going to be on it, I should have some level of freedom of what goes into my team. Keep it simple, require a HW, MW, and LW because that is what the majority of the community builds, and then allow the user to fill up the rest of their team however they want. Like if Enigma was doing a team you'd probably expect 3 SHW/UHWs.

Finally, I just feel like this whole project is being rushed. I understand that you work fast, Ian, and I respect that. I was very impressed with the haste you showed running the ARBBC. That sort of dedication is important. However, an official GTM AI is a landmark project. It's important. It's the type of thing that, many years down the road, if and when the community withers away, someone can look at and see what we as a community achieved. I know it sounds stupid to think that anybody would be looking back on something like RA2 after this community disappears, but when you call something 'Official' you have to make believe that that is what is going to happen. MS Paint UI, recycling the original team pictures, these sort of things just aren't going to cut it.

So maybe this project is having an identity crisis. Very possible. As it stands right now, this is nothing more than a tournament AI pack, which is completely fine. But if that is the case, you need to call it what it is. In ARBBC2 AI, you can keep my half-assed team with Yugiuoh names all day long. That is being true to what I submitted to the tournament. But if this is going to be 'THE OFFICIAL GTM AI,' more time needs to be spent, more work needs to be done, and more freedom needs to be given. The most recognizable 6WD poker in RA2 history was not named after a titillating cartoon character-slash-duel monster, it was and always will be named Stratocaster.

[Scrap Daddy]

I agree with Kill 100%. This is the aaarbc tournament ai pack and definitely not my best bots at least.

[ianh05]

1. I wanted to make it feel grand so gold seemed like the best colour choice and I have offered others a chance to try and make something for the UI and only 1 person has tried it would seem.

2. The tough part apart making a GTM AI pack is people are often updating bots and releasing a final pack seems almost impossible if people keep updating so I made it so that ARBBC would be the base template (perhaps a Beta version?) and once it was released people could update and/or change their bots. AW's and BW's shouldn't be lost in time just because no one really builds them except myself, I imagine if their was only 1 AW in a pack of 105+ bots that is what would happen.

Look at Starcore AI, it also includes AW's and BW's in decent numbers and those were built by former members. Have we not cared about that work all this time? Shouldn't some better AW's be produced by now? It's like no one even noticed those bots because apparently no one but me builds AW's. Surely others must have 1 decent AW and BW they can submit, right?

You'll be able to track your progress and update/change your bots once the pack is released. Look at my HW, it's a complete joke right now because it's a very old basic bot with tonnes of flaws but guess what? That's because I haven't really built many HW's, sure I have some that are better and plan to change it once the pack is released but I'm not going to complain just because I lack the experience of others in that weight class.

3. If this doesn't get out there like this it never will, it has been talked about many times and this is our chance to get it out there for people to use. This will be an ongoing project and bots will be changed or updated many times in the future so don't be upset about current bots because you'll be able to change them and these updates/changes don't need to follow the type restriction rule from ARBBC meaning you can have an all HS team if that's what you want.

[090901]

swag


Anyways, I think people should be able to have more than one team.

[kill343gs]

1. I wanted to make it feel grand so gold seemed like the best colour choice and I have offered others a chance to try and make something for the UI and only 1 person has tried it would seem.

At no point in time have you offered the opportunity for others to work on the UI. I like 09's attempt, and I was planning on issuing an attempt myself just to prove my point. Gold might be grand and all but hot rod flames are not.

2. The tough part apart making a GTM AI pack is people are often updating bots and releasing a final pack seems almost impossible if people keep updating so I made it so that ARBBC would be the base template (perhaps a Beta version?) and once it was released people could update and/or change their bots. AW's and BW's shouldn't be lost in time just because no one really builds them except myself, I imagine if their was only 1 AW in a pack of 105+ bots that is what would happen.

It works as a base template but we could just do annual updates to follow up with the building updates that occur over time. And I'm not saying sub-lights should be lost in time but I do not want a stupid antweight on my team because I never built them, I personally think they're  a waste and that's just not who I am. Suggest that people build AWs but don't require them, Kuriboh should NOT be in any AI pack ever.

Look at Starcore AI, it also includes AW's and BW's in decent numbers and those were built by former members. Have we not cared about that work all this time? Shouldn't some better AW's be produced by now? It's like no one even noticed those bots because apparently no one but me builds AW's. Surely others must have 1 decent AW and BW they can submit, right?

Some people might

You'll be able to track your progress and update/change your bots once the pack is released. Look at my HW, it's a complete joke right now because it's a very old basic bot with tonnes of flaws but guess what? That's because I haven't really built many HW's, sure I have some that are better and plan to change it once the pack is released but I'm not going to complain just because I lack the experience of others in that weight class.

3. If this doesn't get out there like this it never will, it has been talked about many times and this is our chance to get it out there for people to use. This will be an ongoing project and bots will be changed or updated many times in the future so don't be upset about current bots because you'll be able to change them and these updates/changes don't need to follow the type restriction rule from ARBBC meaning you can have an all HS team if that's what you want.

Then why not let me take the AW out of my team now? And replace that useless LW I threw together at the last minute? If you're getting rid of the type restriction in the future why the should you keep it now?

[Mr. AS]

Look at Starcore AI, it also includes AW's and BW's in decent numbers and those were built by former members. Have we not cared about that work all this time? Shouldn't some better AW's be produced by now? It's like no one even noticed those bots because apparently no one but me builds AW's. Surely others must have 1 decent AW and BW they can submit, right?

just put the unwanted aws and bws into aw/bw exclusive teams and let the builder send a bot to replace it. EZ

[Jamin]

if it is going to be an AI pack that "represents the community" we should just let people enter as many teams of whatever the they want into it

[Kossokei]

I'm going to call your bluff

Why are you/we making a GTM OFFICIAL PACK OF IMPORTANCE AND REPRESENTATION, and completely ignoring the magic that we, GTM, cultivated and created; AKA DSL?

Why are we using Stock as a baseplate (I can truly say that I acknowledge stock building) and ignoring the most important and most prominent feature of the community; the total-conversion that most defines us in representation of our abilities, our achievements and our community?

I'm not saying throw out the stock ai and start from scratch, because truthfully without stock we wouldn't be here, but why are we stopping at stock? Why aren't we expanding into DSL?

We should, in sisterhood to this ai pack, make an official gtm ai pack for DSL as well, and include both standards of DSL building (DSLS and DSL IRL) and have this, and that, be what represents us as a community.

[Pwnator]

tldr version of what Kossokei said:

if it is going to be an AI pack that "represents the community" we should just let people enter as many teams of whatever the they want into it

[090901]

I'm going to call your bluff

Why are you/we making a GTM OFFICIAL PACK OF IMPORTANCE AND REPRESENTATION, and completely ignoring the magic that we, GTM, cultivated and created; AKA DSL?

Why are we using Stock as a baseplate (I can truly say that I acknowledge stock building) and ignoring the most important and most prominent feature of the community; the total-conversion that most defines us in representation of our abilities, our achievements and our community?

I'm not saying throw out the stock ai and start from scratch, because truthfully without stock we wouldn't be here, but why are we stopping at stock? Why aren't we expanding into DSL?

We should, in sisterhood to this ai pack, make an official gtm ai pack for DSL as well, and include both standards of DSL building (DSLS and DSL IRL) and have this, and that, be what represents us as a community.

Dude, NAR AI is basically the DSL version of this.

[ianh05]

So let's get this right, people want:

1. LW, MW, HW and 3 free choice bots.
2. More than 1 team for members who want to have more bots in the pack.
3. Some teams made up of only AW's and some made up of only BW's.
4. To be able to change/update any of their bots.

You guys know this is going to be a lot of work and the pack might never get released, right? IMO people can change things around once it's out there, we aren't gonna be remembered for this "Beta" version instead we'll be remembered for where it goes.

I put together 105 bots from 21 people into an AI pack in hope that it would be the groundwork for this but now people are wanting to change everything about it. I'm going to need to AI even more bots this way, I was fine doing another 21 for the 6th spot because I wanted people to have some freedom there to start the pack.

You will be able to change bots in the future, why not let this "Beta" version get released first?

If you guys aren't happy with this, start another thread and let someone else AI all the new stuff, they'll probably just keep getting update after update and never get the pack finalised for release or people go the route that happened last time and people just don't bother to send anything then the pack sizzles out of existence before even seeing the light of day.

[kill343gs]

You don't have to be the only person who works on it, man. Set a deadline for like a month from now for all finished teams and team-related materials to be in. Anything after that will have to wait for an update in the future. Get some help from some people with AI and UI. IanH2006 does not need to be the only person doing the work on this. 09 just did a UI. I'm going to do a UI. We can get some people looking for music. I'm sure some people are willing to help you AI. Those that are capable should AI their own stuff.

People should only be allowed one team for the sake of this pack not being absolutely massive. There are plenty of other AI packs where you can drop multiple teams.

[ianh05]

Sounds Alright, what about the AW's and BW's? give them their own teams or keep them as they are? I'm going to be busy with Evo-Bots for roughly the next month so I can send what I have to the person who wants to AI the updates and new bots that people send this way the UI guys can send their work to him.

[Naryar]

100% agree with kill as well

also, what sparkey said.

[ianh05]

One team of 6 is enough otherwise we get into a "who deserves more teams" debate which will complicated things even further and as Kill said it would be too big if everyone wants at least 2 teams for example: 21 people in arbbc x2 = 42x6 = 252 bots and that's just those who entered and some of them might want even more teams.

[J]

By any chance, Ian, are you still accepting teams?

Am I predicting that the team will be the "red extender network"? 

MAAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE
Though it's by pure chance that I decided to make that team, then shortly after asked Ian if he were still accepting.
I mean, I could just give him a team of my own junk, though, now that you mention it, that would be pretty funny to include that team.
Provided, it's alright with ian that I submit such a team.