Urjaks Old and Masterful Showcase

[Urjak]

First of all, the "RA2 is a game for our enjoyment" argument is completely invalid in this case, since it's exactly the same reason why the pioneers of DSL decided to create the realistic rule in the first place.


I think you misunderstand what I was saying. I am not saying that we should just ignore the current DSL realistic rule because RA2 is just a game, I was saying we can have a little give in our rules if a bot just barely breaks one of the rules.

And no, in no universe can we ever, ever, ever ignore physics and call it "realistic" in the same breath. Because it isn't. I really hope you can agree with this.


Umm... yeah we can. This a game, governed by a flawed physics engine. To apply actual physics to our robots is fine in certain respects, but fails miserably in other (razors can take out a sledgehammer? How is that even possible?)


The problem I have here isn't with you or your bot or your building, it's with calling something that clearly isn't realistic at all a realistic bot. This most recent Bane is so incongruent with the concept of "realism" that I see no way how it could be built and work in real life, yet it technically follows all of our "realistic rules." The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the realistic rule, which was postulated in order to make builders emulate real life closer than with Stock, is quite simply broken. The real question is: how do we fix it?


The realistic rules, at least in my view, are there to stop the one thing that is so prevalent in stock: stacking. Not allowing components to brutally intersect each other is the core of the realistic rule. The point of the realistic rules is not to ensure IRL building, but to try to stress a different style of building to go along with the new components introduced. Your mileage may vary on how successful this was, but at least we don't see super stacked HS's anymore.


The simplest way at this point in DSL's life is to just scrap the realistic title and call it the "no stacking rule" instead, and then revisit the "realistic" rule when DSL 3 comes out. This is what we as a community should do anyways.


I agree with you here.


But we can't continue to call bots like Bane "realistic," nor can we call DSL popups and whatever the 123STW builds "realistic" either. Either the realism tag has to go, or our collective styles of building have to change. We can't continue to have it both ways.


Just because the rules we have are called "realistic" rules doesn't mean they have to enforce total IRL building. You seem to be taking that fact that it has the word "realistic" in it and jumping to the conclusion that it must mean the bots are expected to fit with the building styles of actual combat robots.  That simply doesn't have to be the case. I fail to see what the big problem is. We already have a class of IRL DSL bots (albeit without set-in-stone rules), so just creating a second set of "IRL rules" would remedy the situation. Bane would be "realistic" but not "IRL realistic." I mean, if you compare the modern FSS and SnS to the bots in some IRL tournaments, they are so different that attempting to reconcile to the two seems like a waste of time.

[Enigm@]

Oh boo freakin' hoo. If you don't like the bot, you don't have to comment on it.

[powerrave]

So much blah blah blah here. Everyone has it's own way of building. They want the DSL realistic, then they build that way. They want irl realistic, then they build irl realistic. no use making a fuzz about it like this. Just leave people to their own building style.
As for the bot. We could say that a slot can be cut in the Firestorm flipper that allowed to wheel to pass trough. Easy solution given to something people were making such a huge argument of.

[R0B0SH4RK]

@ Urjak: I think what I'm trying to say has become lost in the perception that I'm baawww'ing about your bot or the current DSL building. I'm really not. For the record, I do think that Bane is incredibly well designed and that you're a top-notch DSL builder.

The discussion that I'm having with you is that I think we're kidding ourselves if we keep calling it the "realistic rule." I just think that the "no stacking rule" is a far more accurate description of the current standards we hold.

I'm not railing against DSL building, you, or really anything else at all. Hope this clears my point up a bit.

[dragonsteincole]

It's redundant now, seeing as he's changed the bot - but to me, the bot is realistic, and could have been made moreso if we had the capability of modifying components. You could cut a slot/hole into the Firestorm Flipper for the wheel to sit through, making it realistic. We don't have the ability to easily modify components in RA2 however, but it's no great leap of the imagination for anyone to see what is being sought in a design.

[Naryar]

Well, that might be three pages of arguing started by me, but that is NOT stupid drama nor flaming, and that is mostly on topic so it's fine.

Anyways, what PR and DSC failed to see is that THE WHEEL'S RADIUS IS TOO SMALL FOR THE WHEEL TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRESTORM FLIPPER AND TOUCH THE GROUND. Hell, it doesn't even goes through the flipper. That's why I am arguing this is not realistic, nor DSL realistic. If it was large enough to go through, I wouldn't have criticized it's unrealisticness.

Hell a hypno on an NPC on the baseplate and a small sheet under the hypno is already borderline, as well as the same design with a vertical NPC and a techno. But this is pushing it way too far.

[nightcracker]

In theory it's possible to create holes for wheels in a spinning disc.

It would require some very complex and very strong electronical magnets though :)

[Urjak]

*Warning: Very Large Post Ahead*

Here are my bots for BoF:

First, we have Widow II:





I believe you guys are already familiar with this guy (or girl I suppose) as I showed it before as a probable entry into BBII. Widow II is a MW VS powered by a Perm 132 with two 50 kg hammers. This robot can toss opponents with ease, and should be fun to watch. It is also the most realistic of my BoF entries IMO.

Next up, Shark:





Shark is a MW Sheck Spinner (no flails :O) with 4 razors and two 45 kg hammers. The shell is powered by a Tornado Mer gearbox, giving it substantial speed. The razors deal good damage while the hammers offer backup weaponry as well as added stability. Also, I have a stabilizer mounted to the chassis to mimic what actual Sheck Spinners use IRL. Shark is probably one of the most combat effective of my BoF entries. In case you are reading this Badnik, I plan to send you this version in an update.

And last, I have Fiery Devil:





Fiery Devil is a hybrid Flamethrower/Wammer with two flamethrowers as weapons and two NPC fasts for drive. This bot uses metal hinge wedges, and thus I would consider it the least realistic of my BoF entries.

Any praise, criticism or realism analysis (I'm looking at you R0B0 :P) is welcome. :D

[FOTEPX]

I'm sorry Urj, but if Shark gets into BOF, I'll be very upset.

[MassimoV]

Why, there's no flails on it?

[Naryar]

Why, there's no flails on it?

'Cause Urjak is actually entering three decent bots in BoF, and FOTEPX seems to associate "IRL" with "NOT combat efficient".

Also he's just butthurt 'cause he's gonna lose

You're probably going to fair pretty well with these, old man. I'm going to enter decent fighters as well.

I would also be giving advice, but when it comes to DSL building you know what you are doing, and more importantly I might come to regret giving advice if it indeed makes your bots better and if we fight in BoF :P

[NFX]

My problem would be with Fiery Devil and it's Metal Hinge wedges. I'm fine with Shark, personally, I just don't really like the wedges or the flimsiness of the other two, exposed motors, etc.

[Urjak]

My problem would be with Fiery Devil and it's Metal Hinge wedges. I'm fine with Shark, personally, I just don't really like the wedges or the flimsiness of the other two, exposed motors, etc.

Understood. I wasn't big fan of the wedges either, but my cost-benefit analysis went something like this:


For Widow, the wedges add much needed stability to the bot that I would only be able to get by shrinking my weapon. Because the big weapon dealt out more airtime than the shorter one, and because people seem to enjoy robots flying though the air more than just grinding , I figured keeping the wedges and longer weapon was the better choice.


For Fiery Devil, I wanted him to be a fast bot (on par with NAR AI Devil), but also able to slam people into walls (once again, for entertainment value). I wouldn't be able to slam people into the walls with poor wedges, and because super fast bots tend to have worse wedges, I wanted to give him the best possible chance of actually getting under something, as opposed to just flying off of the other bots like a ramp (which he still might do :P).


Not meaning to sound like I am making excuses, just trying to share my thought process.

[madman3]

It's funny that I have a bot almost exactly like Fiery Devil, but with the one Metal Hinge wedge and no flamethrowers.
And mine is slower.

Does Fiery Devil ever OOTA things by slamming them into walls, Storm 2 style? Just seems to happen with the upward facing spikes.

I should be able to combat the other two fairly well though if I meet you in the tournament at some point.

[Urjak]

Does Fiery Devil ever OOTA things by slamming them into walls, Storm 2 style? Just seems to happen with the upward facing spikes.

I have never fought it in an arena that allows for OOTA, but from what I have seen I imagine the bot could.

[Scrap Daddy]

i'll be honest, I would rather not see any bots like these in bof

[Urjak]

i'll be honest, I would rather not see any bots like these in bof

Not even the shell spinner? Sure you can point out the razors as being a tad bit cheap, but it is pretty darn IRL realistic IMO.

[NFX]

I think the shell spinner is the most IRL Realistic of them, personally. I wouldn't call the razors cheap, I've got 10 beater bars and 2 ripping teeth on my Ring Spinner, which is invertible anyway. The flame wammer is let down by its metal hinge wedges, in my view, and the VS would be heckaciously flimsy if it were to be built IRL.

They still seem a bit more guaged towards RA2 combat than IRL style to me, but it's down to Badnik, really. If he decides that they are IRL realistic, then we just need to accept it.

At least give them a decent skin first. =P

[Urjak]

They still seem a bit more guaged towards RA2 combat than IRL style to me

Well, I am an RA2 combateer at heart, so I am not surprised that is showed up in my (attempted) IRL designs.

[ty4er]

I think the shell spinner is the most IRL Realistic of them, personally. I wouldn't call the razors cheap, I've got 10 beater bars and 2 ripping teeth on my Ring Spinner, which is invertible anyway. The flame wammer is let down by its metal hinge wedges, in my view, and the VS would be heckaciously flimsy if it were to be built IRL.

They still seem a bit more guaged towards RA2 combat than IRL style to me, but it's down to Badnik, really. If he decides that they are IRL realistic, then we just need to accept it.

At least give them a decent skin first. =P

Lol have you seen mine :P
On the shell spinner, i don't really think the skirt fits it.

What's so bad about metal hinge wedges? Most bots have some sort of wedge on them.