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Robot Arena Matches => Tournaments => Tournament Archives => Topic started by: Jonzu95 on October 13, 2009, 01:07:26 PM

Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 13, 2009, 01:07:26 PM: (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/77797Combatants%20Logo.JPG)
Now I\'m gonna start a new tourney, Last time I was noob But now I can AI!
Rules:
1:This will be Stock AW (Maximum weight 125.0 kgs.)
2:No nasty pickles or like that
3:Cheatbot2 & custom parts are not allowed
4:This competition is for 16
5:Arena will be Small arena
6:Matches are 1 minute

Prize:
All 16 competitors bots

Brackets:
https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/99573CombatAnts Tourney.JPG (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/99573CombatAnts%20Tourney.JPG)

Bot sent: (Green means,AIed) (Black,Bot Sent) (Red,Disqualified)
1. Jonzu95
2. Pwnator
3. RedlineM203
4. Thyrus
5. Craaig
6. 090901
7. Nicsan2009
8. Badnik96
9. Temi
10. Hypnodisc7
11. Scrap Daddy -> BYE
12. Jack Daniels
13. Virus Bomb
14. JoeBlo
15. Starcore
16. T_Koistinen

Tourney Will Start 11/7/2009!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: RedSawn on October 13, 2009, 01:21:00 PM: Stock AW... very few setups possible. Atleast decent ones. Don't expect many entries.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Reier on October 13, 2009, 01:21:31 PM: Oh sure, I'm in I guess. Ian started one like this a while back but IDK if it ever got off the ground.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Resetti's Replicas on October 13, 2009, 01:26:47 PM: Remind me again what the weight limit is for antweights?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Reier on October 13, 2009, 01:28:14 PM: 125 kgs.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 13, 2009, 01:28:32 PM: Its 124.9 kgs
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 13, 2009, 01:30:36 PM: Quote from: Reier;72463
Oh sure, I'm in I guess. Ian started one like this a while back but IDK if it ever got off the ground.

So you're in?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Reier on October 13, 2009, 01:32:08 PM: Quote from: Reier;72463
Oh sure, I'm in I guess.

Yes.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Thyrus on October 13, 2009, 01:52:04 PM: I`m in
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jack Daniels on October 13, 2009, 01:54:49 PM: I will give it a shot. Count me in please.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Scrap Daddy on October 13, 2009, 02:10:33 PM: Quote from: Reier;72463
Oh sure, I'm in I guess. Ian started one like this a while back but IDK if it ever got off the ground.

NO! That was inf!

anyway ill join.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: roboman2444 on October 13, 2009, 02:15:16 PM: i might be in...
for the camera use camstudio or fraps.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Flying_Chao on October 13, 2009, 03:10:33 PM: Your logo has an extra T in it.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: cephalopod on October 13, 2009, 03:31:09 PM: I'll have a go at this XD
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Resetti's Replicas on October 13, 2009, 04:05:37 PM: Sure why not, I'll enter. Maybe I'll do a replica antweight.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jack Daniels on October 13, 2009, 04:22:10 PM: Sonny if you make a replica antweight that is combat effective I will give you a dollar.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Badnik96 on October 13, 2009, 04:33:43 PM: hmmm
stock AW..
I might...
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Sage on October 13, 2009, 04:34:26 PM: The most boring tourney in a long time. Sorry, but AW fights are not exciting.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: trumpetguy on October 13, 2009, 04:34:35 PM: Count me in.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on October 13, 2009, 04:35:15 PM: I willl try this one out
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: RedSawn on October 13, 2009, 04:53:50 PM: I have a bot now. Wait until tomorrow.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: 090901 on October 13, 2009, 05:17:50 PM: I'll join.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: R1885 on October 13, 2009, 05:55:52 PM: I join.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Virus Bomb on October 13, 2009, 06:06:11 PM: I'm in.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Viper89 on October 13, 2009, 06:15:21 PM: I'll join
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: roboman2444 on October 13, 2009, 06:15:32 PM: i might join.
is the ai and sz thing ok?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: ACAMS on October 13, 2009, 06:30:35 PM: Quote from: Jonzu95;72460
Ok, Now I'm gonna start a new tourney, I am still a noob But now I can AI!
Rules:
1:This will be Stock AW (anything under 800KG)
2:No nasty pickles or like that
3:Cheatbot2 & custom parts are not allowed
4:This competition is for 16
5:Arena will be reskinned Small arena
6:AAM, BFE, and all other cheats are legal
7:Tournament will start Jan 1 2121

^^^FIXED^^^

Quote from: Jonzu95;72460
Signups:
1. Jonzu95
2. Reier
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.

Glad to see you are only listing entries that you have received.

That is going to be a base rule for ALL TOURNAMENTS.

Refine your rules a little.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: hypnodisc7 on October 13, 2009, 06:34:09 PM: sounds cool! might enter.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: roboman2444 on October 13, 2009, 06:38:06 PM: Quote from: ACAMS;72567
^^^FIXED^^^

Glad to see you are only listing entries that you have received.

That is going to be a base rule for ALL TOURNAMENTS.

Refine your rules a little.

ohhhhhh bfe is legal (evil laugh?) muhahahahahahahaahahahah*choke ccchcchchchchcucchchcuullglgpg*dead

anywhay it is time for teh noob pwnzer ube vs ant!!!!!! w/ bfe
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Pwnator on October 13, 2009, 11:18:28 PM: I was expecting another subweight tourney after Yayoi made one. :D

Anyway, I'll most likely be in.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 01:59:23 AM: Quote from: ACAMS;72567
^^^FIXED^^^

Glad to see you are only listing entries that you have received.

That is going to be a base rule for ALL TOURNAMENTS.

Refine your rules a little.

Very funny ACAMS, very funny...:pissd: I am NOT noob anymore!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Naryar on October 14, 2009, 02:48:25 AM: Stock ant? You mean barely dealing any damage ?

No thanks.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: HurricaneAndrew on October 14, 2009, 03:00:49 AM: Is it even possible to make an antweight in stock? I think I'll pass.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 03:51:30 AM: Deadline is changed, 23/10/2009!!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 14, 2009, 05:03:31 AM: Quote from: ACAMS;72567
Glad to see you are only listing entries that you have received.

That is going to be a base rule for ALL TOURNAMENTS.

err Jonzu95 ? you may have missed this part
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 05:05:03 AM: Quote from: JoeBlo;72734
err Jonzu95 ? you may have missed this part

Really? O_o not good...?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 14, 2009, 05:16:43 AM: you can just do what I did for King Of Karnage, put all those who havent given a bot into one list (so they know they said they would join) and have your list of 16 for people who have submitted robots :-D
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 05:18:06 AM: Quote from: JoeBlo;72738
so do what I did for King Of Karnage, put all those who havent given a bot into one list (so they know they said they would join) and have your list of 16 for people who have submitted robots :-D

Ahh! Now I get it! i was lil'a bit like, wtf? xD
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 14, 2009, 05:23:04 AM: sorry if that was confusing

I think ACAMS is aiming to not get situations when people have robots ready to go but cant get in because someone else said they would join but are late getting a robot in
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 05:37:15 AM: Ok, So how I can make videos longer in Fraps?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 14, 2009, 05:41:05 AM: trial or registered version ?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 05:41:58 AM: Umm... Trial. Is it better to register?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 14, 2009, 05:53:35 AM: trial is limited to only a particular recording length before it cuts out, there is also no way of getting rid of the fraps logo without a registered version
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 06:02:59 AM: Oh Darn! It costs too... I need better Gamerecorder... (GameCam Sucks)
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: ACAMS on October 14, 2009, 08:46:30 AM: DO NOT START ANY MORE TOURNAMENTS UNTILL YOU HAVE YOUR sh** TOGATHER!!!!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 14, 2009, 08:49:35 AM: Quote from: ACAMS;72776
DO NOT START ANY MORE TOURNAMENTS UNTILL YOU HAVE YOUR sh** TOGATHER!!!!

I'm Not starting a new tournament O_O
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on October 14, 2009, 08:59:41 AM: Hey get ZD gamerecorder and then cheat and go to youtube type in ZD gamerecorder regisration code and type it in to yours and its great
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: ACAMS on October 14, 2009, 09:02:13 AM: You apparently don't have your sh** togather on this one either....why didn't you get a program to do vids first???
You need to practice doing vids too....THEY MUST BE CONDENSED SO THEY ARE NOT HUGE....have you thought of that....what program do you plan on using for that????
Where are you planning on hosting the vids?
How do you plan on displaying the vids?
I may enter AArdvark, since the rules allow it.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: RedSawn on October 14, 2009, 10:23:54 AM: Regardless of preparedness (Jonzu) I'm still taking part.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Urjak on October 14, 2009, 07:07:50 PM: I'll join if there is still a slot left.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: roboman2444 on October 14, 2009, 07:10:44 PM: im in!!!! i have a bot!!! but it might change!!!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 14, 2009, 07:30:05 PM: Quote from: Urjak;72933
I'll join if there is still a slot left.

ACAMS new rule is your added to the list once you submit, so the quicker you build something your sooner likely to get in. I think click did the same thing for BBEANS

also, urjak just ignore the edited by JoeBlo at the bottom of your last post :S sorry I accidentally hit edit rather then quote and it still popped up even though I hit cancel, (nothing is changed though) still not used to all the extra buttons I guess
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 15, 2009, 10:56:24 AM: I'm testing all kinds of gamecams & testing to record so trust me: I Don't let this Tourney to die!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 15, 2009, 11:53:12 AM: Double post: Now I have the Gamerecorder too! Now I only have to do is AI the Bots! :D
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: cephalopod on October 15, 2009, 02:54:33 PM: Most generic stock AW bot ever - sent.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: RedSawn on October 15, 2009, 04:07:18 PM: Quote from: Craaig;73099
Most generic stock AW bot ever - sent.

What would that be?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Badnik96 on October 15, 2009, 04:24:38 PM: im in

I'll send my bot later.

its a good one. Name: The 5 Year Old Arsonist :bigsmile: cool huh?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: 090901 on October 15, 2009, 04:32:06 PM: Just sent in my bot, It's a HS
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: cephalopod on October 15, 2009, 04:34:39 PM: Quote from: RedlineM203;73113
What would that be?

A box with some irons on :P
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Clickbeetle on October 16, 2009, 08:04:32 PM: Quote from: Jonzu95;72460
Rules:
1:This will be Stock AW (Maximum weight 125.0 kgs.)
2:No nasty pickles or like that
3:Cheatbot2 & custom parts are not allowed
4:This competition is for 16
5:Arena will be reskinned Small arena

Looks like new rules? Good.

How long are the matches going to be? Personally, I would do just 1 minute, since stock AW battles tend to be... somewhat less than mind-blowingly awesome.

I might enter Soul Weevil, being one of the only 2 stock AW's I've built.

Edit: never mind, it doesn't really work in the Small Arena. The floor has too much friction.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: roboman2444 on October 16, 2009, 08:05:39 PM: so bfe is allowed?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Clickbeetle on October 16, 2009, 08:13:05 PM: Not anymore, apparently.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 19, 2009, 04:44:41 AM: Quote from: roboman2444;73299
so bfe is allowed?

No it isn't...
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: hypnodisc7 on October 19, 2009, 05:44:31 AM: I'm in. I think I sent u my bot already.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 19, 2009, 06:04:36 AM: Quote from: hypnodisc7;73759
I'm in. I think I sent u my bot already.

Yes you did...
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jack Daniels on October 20, 2009, 05:36:20 PM: My bot is done... I just need to AI it. Will send it soon.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 21, 2009, 07:04:06 AM: Okay.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Viper89 on October 21, 2009, 06:27:30 PM: How come you didn't put my name down I said I wanted to join. What is AW weight limit again.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: R1885 on October 21, 2009, 06:32:24 PM: 125.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 21, 2009, 08:12:50 PM: Quote from: Viper89;74231
How come you didn't put my name down I said I wanted to join. What is AW weight limit again.

the new tournament rules are that someone can only be added to the list once they have sent a robot, this is to avoid situations of a tournament being full but not able to start because someone is late with an entry
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 23, 2009, 06:19:16 AM: 2 DAYS GUYS! 2 DAYS!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 23, 2009, 08:33:38 AM: 10 days is a very tiny amount of time for people to put something together and get it in, you have been quite lucky to get the amount you have on such a strict time schedule... perhaps you need to extend a little longer so you can get the bracket filled

Raw 2 build time - 1 month 7 days

CC2 build time - 1 month

BBEANS 5 rules, arena, etc announced 2 months before registration

see what I mean ?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: RedSawn on October 23, 2009, 09:36:11 AM: Quote from: JoeBlo;74484
10 days is a very tiny amount of time for people to put something together and get it in, you have been quite lucky to get the amount you have on such a strict time schedule... perhaps you need to extend a little longer so you can get the bracket filled

Raw 2 build time - 1 month 7 days

CC2 build time - 1 month

BBEANS 5 rules, arena, etc announced 2 months before registration

see what I mean ?

That thinking is logical, but you haven't refered to a far-reaching range of tournies - they're all quite competitive aren't they? The higher prestige ones, the ones that people want to win. Especially BBEANS.

What about N00b Warz? The atmosphere in the tourney topic alone is much more relaxed.
.. My date-to-date counting is poor but it was around 17~18 days for NW2. Suppose it still supports your request to give more time to build, as totally casual, no skill tournies still have longer reg periods.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 23, 2009, 10:09:15 AM: not to mention there was no real "build time" for n00b warz since everyone should have had there entry or know exactly what they needed to build

doomed bots and 1vs2 also had at least a month building period

all im saying is I know your eager to start but pressuring people like this isn't going to work out as well, you need something like 4 more entrys in 2 days
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Thyrus on October 25, 2009, 03:48:28 AM: so whats up here?
will there be more time for some other entrants?
or will this tourney start with looser brackets?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 25, 2009, 03:52:27 AM: I need only 3 bots, then I will start the tourney...
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 26, 2009, 07:32:17 AM: Double post - Come on guys! I want those 3 bots & then I can start the tourney! :D
ps. Wondering why I am hurrying you? I am so excited of this my Tourney... ^__^
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 26, 2009, 08:04:42 AM: Im working on an experimental robot.. if it works I may enter it

Edit: ARRR 125.5kg
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Starcore on October 26, 2009, 12:51:42 PM: I will see if I can get you a decent Ant to help get things rolling.

Starcore
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Reier on October 26, 2009, 12:55:18 PM: D'oh I totally forgot about this. I will test out a few and see if I can send one.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 27, 2009, 06:09:09 AM: Excellent... *Dark voice*
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 27, 2009, 06:13:37 AM: is my bot ok ? the AI'ing will take a little longer sorry
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 27, 2009, 06:22:31 AM: Well hard to say because I'm in Library Downloading all kind of stuff to my USB.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Temi on October 27, 2009, 06:26:28 AM: Hmm... First Tourney for me! I think that I will win!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 27, 2009, 07:10:55 AM: how modest :biggrin:
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Mrhalitosis on October 27, 2009, 08:38:01 AM: IM IN!!!!!!!!
what do i have to do
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: cephalopod on October 27, 2009, 09:10:56 AM: Quote from: Mrhalitosis;75270
IM IN!!!!!!!!
what do i have to do

The above post has so much fail, it's a win.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 28, 2009, 08:04:10 AM: Quote from: Mrhalitosis;75270
IM IN!!!!!!!!
what do i have to do

Make a bot that its weight is 125.0 and send it to me
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 28, 2009, 08:22:53 AM: so was mine ok ? I just need the ok and I will go ahead and AI it for it to work correctly
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 30, 2009, 07:10:10 AM: 2 bots boys!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 30, 2009, 07:59:22 AM: I will try and finish the AI tonight :-D if you try to use my robot in the bot lab you might not understand it lol
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 30, 2009, 11:15:23 AM: I will look it Today. If I get those another 2 bots, I can start the tourney on this weekend but if not, it will start another weekend. (My computer in Jämsä lags too much if I use ZD soft Gamerecorder)
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Starcore on October 30, 2009, 02:40:52 PM: My entry has been sent. Have a great tournament!

Starcore
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on October 30, 2009, 04:37:14 PM: this tourney only needs one more bot now doesnt it?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on October 31, 2009, 03:39:39 AM: Quote from: nicsan2009;75830
this tourney only needs one more bot now doesnt it?

Yes.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on October 31, 2009, 10:30:59 PM: sorry I was away for the weekend .. but the good news is

Im Back!!!1!!11

so I will try and finish that AI as soon as I have finished pulling apart the roof XD damn isolation replacement :P
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 01, 2009, 03:59:12 AM: Yes, I have it now. I'm AIng it now...
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 04, 2009, 07:32:19 AM: DP, Should I make Bye bot?
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Pwnator on November 04, 2009, 07:45:20 AM: Why not? No harm done. :D
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 04, 2009, 07:47:29 AM: Hmm... I will make Bye bot if nobody will not send bot till friday!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on November 04, 2009, 07:49:44 AM: this tournaments been open for about 3 weeks 2 more days for wait might work out nice, then you have the weekend to finalize it all
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 04, 2009, 07:54:08 AM: Hello Tony! My friend from jämsä, He means that I maybe have good robot in CombatAnts. :smile:
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on November 04, 2009, 07:54:23 AM: what
EDIT: nevermind
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 04, 2009, 07:56:41 AM: Lol Tony, Please speak only English, These guys Don't understand Finnish, Except SSG
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on November 04, 2009, 07:58:23 AM: Translation: Sulla probably a good robot or what Joni?

how close am I :-D
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 04, 2009, 07:59:22 AM: Quote from: JoeBlo;76962
Translation: Sulla probably a good robot or what Joni?

how close am I :-D

Joe! how good are you in speaking finnish? :shock:
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on November 04, 2009, 08:01:29 AM: i bet he used a translater on the internet or something like that
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on November 04, 2009, 08:01:53 AM: I would like to say I speak it fluently

but I knew it was Finnish (before Jonzu said anything) so I just used a translator
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on November 04, 2009, 08:03:14 AM: i was kinda right thats what im talkin about
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on November 04, 2009, 08:05:53 AM: Tervetuloa Game Tech Mods T_Koistinen :-D

Edit: I need to brush up on my Finnish a little more :P
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: somestrangeguy on November 04, 2009, 11:44:29 AM: That was pretty good, even if you used a translator, because those things suck, I havent come across with one that would not translate word by word. They should translate sentances, because that definetly will make a difference.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: System32 on November 04, 2009, 01:12:00 PM: Quote from: T_Koistinen;76963
< unnecessary comment >

Your use on the forum will be short lived if you keep that up.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Reier on November 04, 2009, 01:15:17 PM: Well he's right...
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Virus Bomb on November 04, 2009, 10:25:13 PM: A couple of these last posts have given me laughs.
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on November 04, 2009, 10:36:27 PM: I forgot about my mod powers

*waves wand* spam be gone

Back on topic now guys
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: nicsan2009 on November 05, 2009, 08:12:38 AM: ok since its past Oct 4 when is the tourney gonna start
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: JoeBlo on November 05, 2009, 08:20:53 AM: Jonzu said that he was waiting until Friday to see if anyone else enters.. if not he is going to use a bye bot (which are becoming really regular lately)

King of Karnage
Rust In Pieces
Replica Wars
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 06, 2009, 06:46:18 AM: Entries are Full! I have T_Koistinen's Robot, I must only AI it and I'm Ready To rock!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Jonzu95 on November 07, 2009, 09:28:27 AM: DP, Scrap Daddy is DISQUALIFIED!
Title: CombatAnts
Post by: Scrap Daddy on November 07, 2009, 07:31:03 PM: huh? Why?

Oh and if you dare say my bot is a joke entry there is a lot more thinking into it than you may think!!