gametechmods
Site Information => Site News and Feedback => Topic started by: Jack Daniels on March 11, 2013, 02:04:03 PM
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Let's face it. The current tournament discipline system is ineffective.
Can't finish a tournament? Everyone nags until the excitement of the event fades away... and then... the host is punished with "You are banned from hosting tournaments for such and such amount of time".
Well, banning a person from doing tournaments for not finishing tournaments really doesn't effect them at all. If they didn't want to finish their tourney, they wont care about being banned.
The unfortunate victims of the situations are the bot-builders themselves. It ends up being a waste of time and competitive hopes are dashed. In my opinion it really wrecks the building "morale" of the forums.
How about this for an idea... Since there really isn't an effective punishment for deadbeat hosts, let's further reward the hosts who do succeed. I propose the following incentives for successful tournament hosts:
-Special Forum Username color for completing 3 or 5 tournaments. I think forest Green would be pretty awesome. Would correspond with the "Green Tick" tournament approval.
-Special Forum title. Like "roboteer"... I dunno... "Epic Tourney Host" or "Tournament Pro". Something like that.
-Complete 10+ tournaments and you earn rank to co-moderate the tournament section of the forum.
You lose all your perks if you fail to complete a tourney. Sorry... go back to Start... do not collect $200.
I think it should be an achievement to complete 5 tournaments successfully and I think we should stress the importance of how awesome it is when people successfully host.
I don't know about you guys... but it really blows my motivation when I enter a tourney and get my hopes up only to see it fade away forgotten.
Also, no retro-active completed tournament credits. Sorry, we should just start at square one (except for those already on the banned list) and earn our way there.
The tournament hosting portion of this forum really needs a shot in the arm. Good hosts should be rewarded somehow so that they are motivated to host more and people can learn from their example. Anyone else have any ideas for how we can show hosts some love?
Like this idea? Hate this idea? Discuss.
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Oh yeah, I had a tourney running, didn't I?
It's weird, I didn't get any questioning post, unlike other hosts.
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Not a bad idea but changing forum titles requires admin privileges so whoever takes over the section would need to be an admin. This would therefore conflict with the idea of giving them moderator powers within the section (they wouldn't be able to do anything except modify posts or move/lock/delete the topic as moderators).
It also provides no incentive for people to continue doing tournaments after they get what they want. People wouldn't want to risk starting a new tournament if it meant that they could lose the privileges that they had already earned. This is a double-sided argument because it also prevents people from starting tournaments when they aren't ready for them.
I've considered rewarding tournaments hosts with prizes but it would take quite a bit of effort to make enough of them to give more than one level of achievement. It would be even more difficult if I allowed them to release the rewards as tournament prizes. I've also considered giving them access to a special board that contains prizes as they become available but that gives people less incentive to start tournaments or participate in them after they have access to the tournament prizes (for themselves).
To prevent tournament bailing this time around, I tried to reduce the number of tournaments that would advance to signups but there weren't enough entry-level tournaments for my actions to make a difference. However, the attempt gave me an idea. I was thinking of having a poll every month but limiting the number of advancing tournaments to one. That way, instead of having three new tournaments every one and half months, we would have one new tournament every month (I know there are six entry level tournaments but the three extra slots could be used to expand the poll to two whenever there was more than three tournaments in discussion). That way, everyone knows when the poll will be started (same day every month) and it reduces the amount of waiting time for new tournaments.
Lastly, I should mention that it is already rather complicated for hosts and moderators of the section. Having done it once, I can already tell why we don't have any moderators ATM. Without proper moderation, the section got rather messy and it may take some time before it regains its footing. That is part of the reason why I haven't promoted anyone to moderator status for it. It needs to be someone who is capable of moderating and taking action when necessary (no easy task). Until I see someone consistently stepping up to the plate (through their actions), I will be overseeing the section.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
Uhhh, that doesn't address the problem at all. That just pointlessly bans people from using most of the tools they could actually contribute with.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
Uhhh, that doesn't address the problem at all. That just pointlessly bans people from using most of the tools they could actually contribute with.
It's banning them from other parts of the forum that could be considered fun for them. They can still make mods and comment on other showcases etc.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
Uhhh, that doesn't address the problem at all. That just pointlessly bans people from using most of the tools they could actually contribute with.
It's banning them from other parts of the forum that could be considered fun for them. They can still make mods and comment on other showcases etc.
The thing is, sometimes no-one cares about tournies anymore, they should be allowed to die if no-one taking part even cares anymore.
Then we can move on, and do more interesting things in the future, if you don't trust the host to finish, you don't have to enter.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
Uhhh, that doesn't address the problem at all. That just pointlessly bans people from using most of the tools they could actually contribute with.
It's banning them from other parts of the forum that could be considered fun for them. They can still make mods and comment on other showcases etc.
That's still pretty cruel and pointless. What will happen then is nobody will host tournaments because the risk is too high.
Not everybody fails to complete a tournament because they just don't care, sometimes real life just gets in the way, or there are serious technical issues.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
That's absurdly harsh.
What we should do about bailers is indefinitely ban them from tournament hosting and only from that, UNLESS they entirely host a mini-tournament ( like a standard 8 bot tournament) to prove they can and will host a decent tournament. ai, rules, etc, everything done by them. No help allowed.
If they pass it and succeed at hosting the tournament, their ban is lifted. If not, it stays.
Of course, if someones bails out repeatedly we may as well permanently ban them from tournament hosting altogether and there we are.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
Uhhh, that doesn't address the problem at all. That just pointlessly bans people from using most of the tools they could actually contribute with.
It's banning them from other parts of the forum that could be considered fun for them. They can still make mods and comment on other showcases etc.
That's still pretty cruel and pointless. What will happen then is nobody will host tournaments because the risk is too high.
What about the people who enter the tournaments that build bots for them, it's cruel having a tournament host bail on them. Tournament bailing is usually due to laziness or loss of interest, most tournaments can be completed but people just prefer to play other games etc. so I doubt any reward will work.
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I think tournament hosts who bail on their tournaments should also be banned from competing in tournaments, be banned from playground and have their showcase(s) locked.
Uhhh, that doesn't address the problem at all. That just pointlessly bans people from using most of the tools they could actually contribute with.
It's banning them from other parts of the forum that could be considered fun for them. They can still make mods and comment on other showcases etc.
That's still pretty cruel and pointless. What will happen then is nobody will host tournaments because the risk is too high.
What about the people who enter the tournaments that build bots for them, it's cruel having a tournament host bail on them. Tournament bailing is usually due to laziness or loss of interest, most tournaments can be completed but people just prefer to play other games etc. so I doubt any reward will work.
But what of the people who initially host a tournament and then can't continue it because of problems outside of GTM/RA2, like Jonzu's hard drive herpaderping or similar reasons as to why ACAMS retired? Do they just become senselessly banned for something they shouldn't be held responsible for?
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I agree with JD even though I am guilty of this - need motivation, but RIP3 will be finished, as everything I start.
And Ian is being stupidly harsh. That's the scaremongering that will prevent people even starting them in case they can't complete.
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the only reason the current punishment is tourney bans is because fotepx and teamx were being dumbasses back in 2010/early 11.
i agree with JD about using positive reinforcement to encourage tourney completion. we just need to set a reward as "you will get one/# of X for every Y tourney(s) you host". perhaps use some sort of currency, and have contributions earn virtual "money" that you can redeem to get a variety of things? (user titles, username colors... that sort of thing. maybe trovs action cam can be purchasable under this system as well)
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There should be some rewards system, when you start a tourney it seems like the best idea... but then after you've spent countless hours AIing, you begin to not see the incentive. You occasionally get a 'thanks' and that's about it, if we can encourage people to start tournaments and complete them for a reason, maybe we will see more success.
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the only reason the current punishment is tourney bans is because fotepx and teamx were being dumbasses back in 2010/early 11.
i agree with JD about using positive reinforcement to encourage tourney completion. we just need to set a reward as "you will get one/# of X for every Y tourney(s) you host". perhaps use some sort of currency, and have contributions earn virtual "money" that you can redeem to get a variety of things? (user titles, username colors... that sort of thing. maybe trovs action cam can be purchasable under this system as well)
I like this. I like this a lot.
To further on this point, there could be a purchasable thing called "Change User Title" and the person could change their titles, or "Change Username Color" so the person could change their name colors (make sure it's a color that isn't Admin, Roboteer, Glomod, etc), and maybe (for a ton of credit points) a "Change Username"; self explanatory. Some of the other purchasable items could include exclusive arenas, Trov's action cam, Tutorials of whatever made by whoever (Skinning; SD, Efficiency+; Naryar/inf/sage/whoever else, DSL IRL; SD, VB, I don't want to play favorites here) and so on.
Could be fun.
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the only reason the current punishment is tourney bans is because fotepx and teamx were being dumbasses back in 2010/early 11.
i agree with JD about using positive reinforcement to encourage tourney completion. we just need to set a reward as "you will get one/# of X for every Y tourney(s) you host". perhaps use some sort of currency, and have contributions earn virtual "money" that you can redeem to get a variety of things? (user titles, username colors... that sort of thing. maybe trovs action cam can be purchasable under this system as well)
I like this. I like this a lot.
To further on this point, there could be a purchasable thing called "Change User Title" and the person could change their titles, or "Change Username Color" so the person could change their name colors (make sure it's a color that isn't Admin, Roboteer, Glomod, etc), and maybe (for a ton of credit points) a "Change Username"; self explanatory. Some of the other purchasable items could include exclusive arenas, Trov's action cam, Tutorials of whatever made by whoever (Skinning; SD, Efficiency+; Naryar/inf/sage/whoever else, DSL IRL; SD, VB, I don't want to play favorites here) and so on.
Could be fun.
eeeh you shouldnt have to purchase tutorials. those are so that you can further your skill in ra2 when you start out, and odds are that when you start you will have little to no interwebs dollas.
i have come up with some items and actions you can do to earn more $$$
Change username color* ... $500
Change title* ... $750 for text title, $1250 for an image
Add a new smiley* ... $1250
Action Cam ... $1500
Enable longer signature ... $2 x character
Change username ... $2500
$ = whatever form of "currency" we decide on.
* = rules would have to be enforced on what you could change it to/add, ie no goatse/tubgirl, no admin title/color
how to earn money:
Showcase a robot ... $10 x new bot**
Write a tutorial ... $25-200 (depending on quality)
Host a challenge ... $50 x participant
Host a tourney ... $10 x match
Release AI pack ... $5 x new bot***
(and possibly some other possibilities as well)
**("new" meaning that it isnt just a reskin or tweak of an earlier bot, and "bot" being an actual creation, not just a giant dsa chassis with nothing in it)
***new bot made by the maker of the pack (as in they wont get $ for other people's creations)
in essesnce its just the contributor contest 24/7. of course as much as trov is a cool guy and all, we would need more than trov (hes busy enough) to moderate the outflow of money, AKA someone who wont just give themselves 9 million grand and leave everyone else out.
dunno weather some of these are able to be implemented or not, but i still think its a pretty cool idea
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the only reason the current punishment is tourney bans is because fotepx and teamx were being dumbasses back in 2010/early 11.
i agree with JD about using positive reinforcement to encourage tourney completion. we just need to set a reward as "you will get one/# of X for every Y tourney(s) you host". perhaps use some sort of currency, and have contributions earn virtual "money" that you can redeem to get a variety of things? (user titles, username colors... that sort of thing. maybe trovs action cam can be purchasable under this system as well)
I like this. I like this a lot.
To further on this point, there could be a purchasable thing called "Change User Title" and the person could change their titles, or "Change Username Color" so the person could change their name colors (make sure it's a color that isn't Admin, Roboteer, Glomod, etc), and maybe (for a ton of credit points) a "Change Username"; self explanatory. Some of the other purchasable items could include exclusive arenas, Trov's action cam, Tutorials of whatever made by whoever (Skinning; SD, Efficiency+; Naryar/inf/sage/whoever else, DSL IRL; SD, VB, I don't want to play favorites here) and so on.
Could be fun.
massive block of text
I don't mean you can only get tutorials by buying them, but you can buy advanced tutorials to further your experience, like a book, sort of. Like, you can have your basic everyone-gets-to-see-it skinning tutorial and then you can have your "bro this is a based god's guide" that you can buy. Or, you can have a tutorial that covers everything on that topic (like the beetlebro's guide for stock) then you can have separate tutorials by other people, like Sage or inf and then you can conglomerate methods of building or whatever, or if you wanna learn how to build similarly (NOT CLONING!) to someone who has a particular style, same applies.
That was my whole idea for the tutorial buying thing. Basically it would be separate "X: Y edition"'s, similar to textbooks. I hope that isn't too complicated to understand
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*double post so as to not create an even bigger TL;DR paragraph*
For example, if someone wanted to learn (or figure out, understand, whatever) my style of IRL, I could make a tutorial basically going through the process I'd go through while making an IRL bot. For instance (example within example within example within...)
"you see these teeth they look really nice but they're really weak and not really worth the looks; these teeth look just as nice for a better stat gain"
"these wheels aren't as grippy as hypnos or technos but they look much cooler, are easily invertable and are pretty all-around statwise, this wheel and this wheel are similar in that sense."
"usually if I have extenders like this I'll decorate them with this like that, given I have enough weight left over."
"these kinds of extenders are really useful when it comes to doing this, but these extenders serve the same functions and look better and they have more useful choices"
"the way I do this motor protection for such a drum is I take a weapon slave hex, put a piglet on either side and line the tip with 20cm DSL bars. After that, you can use the connection points on the flat parts of the dsl bars to do whatever you want; put beater bars or some sort of teeth."
and so on.
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the only reason the current punishment is tourney bans is because fotepx and teamx were being dumbasses back in 2010/early 11.
i agree with JD about using positive reinforcement to encourage tourney completion. we just need to set a reward as "you will get one/# of X for every Y tourney(s) you host". perhaps use some sort of currency, and have contributions earn virtual "money" that you can redeem to get a variety of things? (user titles, username colors... that sort of thing. maybe trovs action cam can be purchasable under this system as well)
I like this. I like this a lot.
To further on this point, there could be a purchasable thing called "Change User Title" and the person could change their titles, or "Change Username Color" so the person could change their name colors (make sure it's a color that isn't Admin, Roboteer, Glomod, etc), and maybe (for a ton of credit points) a "Change Username"; self explanatory. Some of the other purchasable items could include exclusive arenas, Trov's action cam, Tutorials of whatever made by whoever (Skinning; SD, Efficiency+; Naryar/inf/sage/whoever else, DSL IRL; SD, VB, I don't want to play favorites here) and so on.
Could be fun.
eeeh you shouldnt have to purchase tutorials. those are so that you can further your skill in ra2 when you start out, and odds are that when you start you will have little to no interwebs dollas.
i have come up with some items and actions you can do to earn more $$$
Change username color* ... $500
Change title* ... $750 for text title, $1250 for an image
Add a new smiley* ... $1250
Action Cam ... $1500
Enable longer signature ... $2 x character
Change username ... $2500
$ = whatever form of "currency" we decide on.
* = rules would have to be enforced on what you could change it to/add, ie no goatse/tubgirl, no admin title/color
how to earn money:
Showcase a robot ... $10 x new bot**
Write a tutorial ... $25-200 (depending on quality)
Host a challenge ... $50 x participant
Host a tourney ... $10 x match
Release AI pack ... $5 x new bot***
(and possibly some other possibilities as well)
**("new" meaning that it isnt just a reskin or tweak of an earlier bot, and "bot" being an actual creation, not just a giant dsa chassis with nothing in it)
***new bot made by the maker of the pack (as in they wont get $ for other people's creations)
in essesnce its just the contributor contest 24/7. of course as much as trov is a cool guy and all, we would need more than trov (hes busy enough) to moderate the outflow of money, AKA someone who wont just give themselves 9 million grand and leave everyone else out.
dunno weather some of these are able to be implemented or not, but i still think its a pretty cool idea
I still doubt it's effectiveness against those who don't finish tournaments and as Trov said people can release rewards to the public or just give them out to their buddies on here.
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words
I still doubt it's effectiveness against those who don't finish tournaments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Positive_and_negative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Positive_and_negative)
as Trov said people can release rewards to the public or just give them out to their buddies on here.
yes, we're just hoping that GTM is able to use the honor system. besides, the only item that can be redistributed is the action cam
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People who don't care enough to finish tournament won't care about some forum prize either. If the purchasable prize was an arena or something then maybe it would help motivate people, but people can give those out to others.
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People who don't care enough to finish tournament won't care about some forum prize either. If the purchasable prize was an arena or something then maybe it would help motivate people, but people can give those out to others.
It's still a better idea than sending people to the gulag.
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Whatever happens, people should still get banned from hosting tournaments if they drop out multiple times
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I like the idea of earning points/money/credits towards rewards. However, the problem with that is it would be an absolute pain to keep track of. Unless there is something that can be easily programmed into the forum for Mod to issue GTMCash, it would be a lot of work for somebody to keep track of all the transactions and so fourth.
That is why I just wanted to keep it simple and reward a special username color for a basic (easy to keep track of) achievement.
Trov makes excellent points too. I am unfamiliar with the limitations of the forum settings. So, it sounds like changing priviledges for members could be more trouble than it is worth. I was just brainstorming ideas for rewards that could be easily tracked and awarded no matter who is modding the forum (this year, next year, 5 years from now)
GTMCash would be a lot of work to be honest. The idea is awesome though.
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This idea of gtm cash is hilariously complicated and mostly useless. Who's gonna bother spending his time giving fake money for mild rewards ? Or at least gonna bother for more than one month ?
also, the problem is that it's an intangible reward. Sure, it's pretty. Sure, it makes you feel good. But no more than that.
Not to mention that some newbies will care more about the reward than the tournament, thinking GTMcash is "cool" and "exciting", resulting on some half assed average quality tournament and the newbie does several of these.
JD's original idea was good. Because it takes one minute to give people a new shiny title if they have been making good tournies. No need to bother more about it.
But yet... Completing tournaments generally earns you respect, gives you more influence, and makes people more prone to listen to you, unless you have been failing at social interaction otherwise, in which case it does not help you much. It has always been such on these forums.
Not to mention the hilarious moments, the awesome moments, and the sheer satisfaction of battle lust that comes with it for everyone.
Is that no reward enough ? a tournament is it's own reward,
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Maybe one idea is to encourage people to run lots of small (8-bot-ish) tournaments rather than 1 big one, it should help keep things fresh. I know I am going for this idea if I decide to host again after RIP3. Youknow, a week in discussion, a few days in signups, a few days in Brackets/Vids, the entire process could be done within 2 weeks.