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Messages - Starcore
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41
« on: May 07, 2017, 05:31:44 PM »
Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
what the **** are you talking about
No need to flame him for it. I'll show how you should answer TGM:
TGM, the Starcore AI packs are legendary Stock AI packs, which have never not been Stock. To change it to something like Ironforge IRL is not a good idea: Starcore will (though a DSL-S pack for DSL 2.2 AS-Rebalanced would be neat imo Starcore will be Stock, and there is definitely an audience for it) always be Unrealistic Stock. While your suggestion is not invalid or worthless, if you want a AI pack like that you'll have to make it yourself. Also, I think DSL 2.2 has more in the way of components for building IRL.
*Touches nose* (Meaning Avalanche is on target). The Starcore packs are about what is possible in the Botlab using Stock parts. It grew out of helping people be able to compete against each other online when you didn't know what the opponent had installed. That is why we have allowed the hidden Stock parts as well. Because if someone did a bot using them, your stock RA2 would not complain. Wanted level the playing field and teach by example awesome bots and building techniques for Stock combat. I fully support others doing other packs with other focuses. I am fine if someone wants to do a BFE/AAM focused pack or packs based on Real Life using DSL or other sets of hopefully balanced parts to better replicate Real Life replicas and bot building efforts. I believed in it enough to be a Founding Father and CEO of DSL 1.0. This thread and effort is about taking the Starcore v4 Alpha2 that I posted for my internal testers back in 2007 to a full release pack with any fixes and replacements as needed, opening up some slots and teams for the current community to show off and wrap it with a bow for you all. I hope that is something people value finishing... Starcore
42
« on: May 07, 2017, 01:45:41 AM »
Guilty as charged (touches finger to nose)...Basically Search bookmarks. Starcore 
43
« on: May 06, 2017, 09:40:47 PM »
I went and manually got all the bots from their teams and gave them the correct names for easy importing.
https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=354
Obviously you will have to look up the teams yourself but this should help save some time moving files.
What's with the team 35 by the way? They don't have bindings.
EDIT: Here is my in progress review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J6t9tarSfUm15M30gSPqY5jCNZkGNwCRTJi2b-pzVtA/edit#gid=0
Open to all. Please don't ruin it :)
Team 35 was something I was working on bringing in to the pack for testing and when I made the Alpha2 build and sent to my testers I didn't realize that team had not been fully activated. I deeply appreciate you helping with making a Zip of all the robots to help with the review process and putting out a Google Docs spreadsheet for us to real time add comments. That has been quite useful. We're getting a nice list together of things to do on the google sheet.
Starcore, are you on the discord? It might help us answer some of your questions about new developments.
I was at the Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2 movie and recently back. Checking if you all are still in Discord... Starcore
44
« on: May 06, 2017, 02:58:34 AM »
Warmachine is not in Starcore v4 Alpha2. I plan on including it in the next review release. I am also opening up the pack for roughly 10 more teams to be included if there is interest to show off some quality latest efforts.
And yes Starcore started Stock and will stay Stock. That is its premise and I will stick to it. When I created Starcore v1, pack makers often resorted to using overpowered custom components to "compete" with human drivers. I felt that should not be needed and it wasn't. Tight building and good AI can keep humans on their toes.
Starcore
45
« on: May 06, 2017, 01:45:55 AM »
The packs are available at: https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=5/
I recommend installing Starcore V3 then replacing the /AI teams with the /AI team in the Starcore v4 Alpha2 pack.
Note: It is an Alpha and not a full pack release.
Starcore
I was more hoping someone had extracted the bot files from the teams so I could open them in the lab. But that's just me being lazy.
Dang, I am going to be double and triple posting to catch up on all the questions and comments. Sorry about this to everyone. I did more thinking about "extracting the bot files". The Bots in the AI teams are named Bot0.bot through Bot5.bot and they are named the same way in your Botlab teams. So it doesn't help to rename them to their actual name and if I did rename them to their actual bot name you would just have to rename them back to Bot0.bot through Bot5.bot to put in your Botlab. So as you want to check out one of the AI teams, make a new team in your bot lab. (Your first bot team will be put in Team0 for example, the 15th team would be put in Team14) Then outside of RA2 just drag and drop one the AI teams to your new Team folder that RA2 created for you when you created a fresh team in your Botlab and when you jump back into RA2 the AI team will be in that team list for you to review and play with. I can write up a step by step procedure if needed but that is the gist of it. Starcore
46
« on: May 06, 2017, 01:28:49 AM »
The modern stiltbot works well against the big three robot types. Especially if you build them the way Geice mentioned.
Speaking of anti popup/HS/SnS designs, would an all crawler team be a good idea? The crawler has evolved since 2004 and those newer robots are legal in tournaments that do not explicitly ban crawlers.
I am more than happy to have a team of Stiltbots to show off the techniques from small to large though of course, it may be a challenge to make Stiltbots in the lower weight classes. I am sure Mome Rath would enjoy the company. The team could be called the Menagerie or something like that (I think a group of Giraffes are called a Tower). The only concern I can see is that it is taking advantage of AI limitations and would not work versus a human bot pilot that would just attack the legs. Will have to think on that. I would need to look into python options to detect Z height and change to some kind of spiral attack pattern if bot is above you. Well, could put secondary smartzones way above a bot to force alternate attack behavior. As for crawlers: I allowed crawlers back as far as ACAMS SHW Crawler back in 2004. I am not against crawlers as a valid building method. While some think the method is unfair, the same could be said of 36HS as too overboard or snapper loading or Caster Armor to oppose Popups or... Regarding the 140cm square extender: I pushed for the community to support the hidden parts under the theory that you could face someone in Network PVP match that has that part and your default copy of RA2 would not complain so allowing the parts makes sure it is a level playing field and makes sure it is not cases of have vs have nots. I am against bots that cannot control their motion. If a bot cannot reach a point across an arena in a reasonable amount of time and disable an immobilized opponent, then they shouldn't be allowed. Battlebots events in real life had a similar rule about must be able to exhibit controlled motion. I feel the same way about 1-wheel bots and bots that just flail around if they cannot exhibit controlled motion. I realize bots can start flailing around after weapons and wheels are stripped off but they should at least be able to start a match with controlled motion. I also have the rule to get in the Starcore pack, a bot needs to be able to beat 1 or more (preferably more) bots of same weight class in the pack (Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock). And if a bot is left behind because of other bots getting improved then if a bot can no longer beat any other bot in the pack in its same weight class it should be pulled. Pushers and Flippers get to be considered in no-wall arenas. So, yes to crawlers and stilt bots and even 1-wheeled bots that can be AIed to show controlled motion are potentially fair game. My goal is effective, efficient diversity. To display a wide range of bot building techniques and how they can be effective. Starcore
47
« on: May 05, 2017, 10:12:05 PM »
When you say Stiltbots, I assume you mean bots like Mome Rath of Team Jabberwocky in Starcore v3 based on Bumbler by Corporate Goon.
Glad to see that style of bot has come into its own. As I recall the issue with that kind of bot was designing the legs wide enough to not be taken out by a HS, SnS or pretty much any "wide" bot.
Starcore
48
« on: May 05, 2017, 08:11:32 PM »
Yeah, I didn't think it was a real Trojan. More likely a false alarm. That is why I mentioned how to recompile it to get rid of the issue.
I will check it from home since my work won't let me download it to protect me.
Starcore
49
« on: May 05, 2017, 07:25:53 PM »
Hmmm.... My work's McAfee Anti-Virus scanner reports that Apanx's Bot Exporter in the GTM Downloads area has a Trojan and won't let me download it.
Any discussion about this being a false alarm?
Would be good to recompile the .EXE so it doesn't report as such. Often even a small change will induce enough of a difference to remove the false alarm (if it is a false alarm).
Starcore
50
« on: May 05, 2017, 07:20:04 PM »
Yeah that was a short cut back then to not worry about binding numbers matching the weapons and even on bots I had right, they fell out of sync as updates and rebuilds occurred.
I didn't worry about it much as long as I had enough IDs to be at least equal to the number of weapons because that is the point that the bot AI switched from Attacking to Shoving. If you didn't care much about when that happened as long as it didn't happen too early it didn't matter much that the numbers matched the Weapon binding numbers.
Shove was a common choice for pushing an opponent into a pit or out of the arena or by locking their weapons and causing a Failed to Move TKO. Better than winning by, "Let's run away some more!"
It did matter when one did want to switch to an alternate response like fleeing when its actual weapons were removed.
If people are concerned that the information is right, we can do a project when the rebuilds and tunings wind down to match binding numbers to actual weapon part numbers. Hope Apanx's bot exporter is a decent shortcut tool for that these days. It was a PITA back then.
Happy to have your help with that when it comes time,
Starcore
51
« on: May 05, 2017, 06:29:29 PM »
If you are wanting them prepped for Botlab review with all their names changed back from Bot0, Bot1, Bot2, etc to their actual names, I am pretty likely to be the one most able to do that since I have Botlab and Archive versions of all the bots. But currently no, I don't have anything like that prepped for 'lazy' bot builders. Now, if anyone else has already done that legwork you can hope they notice this forum thread and pipe up. I respect that you and others are willing to help, providing it doesn't take you too much effort to dig in, so I as the requester will see what I can do this weekend... Starcore
53
« on: May 05, 2017, 05:34:36 PM »
IMO, Starcore was never a max efficiency AI pack in my eyes. While it definitely has effective designs in it, and it certainly helped move stock forward, it's greatest strength has always been the diversity of bots. There are lots of bots in SC you won't see in another AI pack. Yes bot types aren't all equal, but it's like that in every meta and has been like that since the start of ra2, and as long as rebuilds are built to the best of the design while still resembling their predecessors, bitching about the meta shouldn't be an issue.
Geice is very much on target here. Yes teams like my personal Spin Doctors were built to be as efficient as I could back then to the predominate theme of HS (except of course AW Logic Probe as a form of FS due to limitations of what you can do at Antweight levels) across the teams and bots being effective was important AND so was exposing various building techniques, styles and yes, types of glitches that allowed, even more, bot types and examples. Before Starcore v3 Antweight, Beetleweight and as I recall Superheavyweights didn't exist in Stock AI packs. We standardized the specs and gave lots of examples. If Popups, HS and SnS are currently dominate then yes it is worth taking effort to develop and present Anti-Popups, Anti-HS, and Anti-SnS. Review overhead hammers and bring up to current teams like Team Jabberwocky. I remember working on a Scorpion style bot to be Anti-Popups (with wedges and/or ramplate front and caster armor). Work on Rammer AI to make bots like Warhammer more effective with better pull back and ram code. SnS are vulnerable to flippers for OOTA and while difficult to AI in Stock, possibly Clamp Bots. I asked ACAMS for out-of-the-box thinking and that is why you see a full team of side hammers and a team of anti-popups. You have seen the SHW Locutus of Borg with its Anti-Gut Rippers. This can be done with more standard weight solutions. And there are AI packages that can handle multiple Smartzones for different effects. When I asked Rejected for some out-of-the-box thinking we got bots like Neglected Waterbug (one of the first and likely the most famous juggler in RA2) and Clockwork Hydra with its piston thrusting VS solution that sought to solve the issue of opponent bots being too wide or having spinning weapons so the VS was not able to get close enough to the opponents chassis. And he called out to his friends and we got bots like Papa Roach and Lil Darling. And you may feel otherwise but I have never felt we had top-notch AIed Pop-ups in the Starcore packs. We had some relatively nice pop-ups but you all know many have done better and that is something that is much easier to drive than properly AI. I know some have taken the challenge of going against the Starcore packs in the internal Tournament mode and surviving an entire tournament as a test of overall toughness. I think we need more Anti-Popups and Popup Protection in the pack because about the only types of bots that have ever finished the Starcore Pack Tournaments have been very defensively driven armored Popups. So, is there a reason and interest to teach latest techniques and show off current best-of-breeds in a Stock pack update? Can 'you' build better? Are there things we can still teach? And as Mr AS and Dreamcast mentioned, I am not looking to rebuild the whole pack. I am not looking to make it non-Stock. It was at an Alpha2 state and I would like to bring to you all a finished version of that pack. What bots are Alpha broken? (AI messed up? Steel armor that should be DSA? Etc) What bots are just too ineffective to provide reasonable build examples and need to be replaced? Being still in Alpha I was opening the door to like maybe 10 teams to bring the pack to a full 45 teams for tournament rotations thereby giving you all a chance to show off a team or two of your greatest and brightest. Starcore
54
« on: May 05, 2017, 03:45:50 PM »
This is in part why I am asking if it is worth it to update the Starcore v4 pack?
DSL and Starcore Stock are the 2 branches of the fork we started so many years ago.
Stock for people that wanted to play with what came with the original game and could be presented to each other in unmodified versions of the game. The key rule was always: What could be built in the RA2 botlab?
DSL for people that wanted closer to Real Life robotics and representations of the bots they have seen with reasonably fair and balanced parts but definitely more than what Stock RA2 provided.
Starcore Stock AI packs have always been about helping people through example on bot and AI building techniques.
Is that needed anymore?
Do you have enough Stock packs to sate your interests and needs?
Is something like Starcore AI v4.0 effectively a dead horse?
While it would be nice to enhance the UI, Botlab, additional arenas included, patched for wide monitors and the like is that acceptable and desired for a Stock pack?
Starcore
55
« on: May 05, 2017, 03:11:40 PM »
>>> You can be involved in updating and tuning the Starcore AI v4.0 pack to current Stock standards. <<<
It has been about 8 to 10 years since I was last actively involved in RA2 (amazing that it has been that long) and I am trying to see how much interest there is in my finishing Starcore v4 Alpha2 into a completed release.
That would include additional quality teams as there are new ideas to show off and updates to the UI, splash screen, botlab and the like to make it more fun. (That could be you)
I am reaching out to everyone to see if people would like to see something like that happen and who would be willing to be involved in helping, adding, testing and tuning.
My time is limited but I do recognize this is a loose thread in my life and that it would be fun for people for us to pull together favorite Stock bots, UI features, maps, botlab, etc from over the last decade plus.
Also, for Starcore v4 is there any bots or teams you feel are not effective enough to help teach RA2 techniques and bot combat and need to be dumped?
Across 210+ bots I am sure there are some lemons by today's standards. While it is nice to be the toughest bot pack around the key goal was and is to teach by example(s).
Separately I realize that DSL has grown in scope and range to keep RA2 interesting and fun. As a Founding Father of DSL that makes me very proud and happy. So I don't know if there is a need to update a Stock RA2 pack in today's world. ,
What do you think?
Starcore
56
« on: May 03, 2017, 03:54:04 PM »
Recapping and adding to what I said in the Chatbox:
It has been about 10 years since I was last actively involved in RA2 (amazing that it has been that long) and I am trying to see how much interest there is in my finishing Starcore v4 Alpha2 into a completed release.
That would include additional quality teams as there are new ideas to show off and updates to the UI, splash screen, botlab and the like to make it more fun.
I am reaching out to you all to see if people would like to see something like that happen and who would be willing to be involved in helping, testing and tuning.
My time is limited but I do recognize this is a loose thread in my life and that it would be fun for people for us to pull together favorite Stock bots and UI features, maps, botlab, etc from over the last decade plus.
Starcore
57
« on: May 02, 2017, 03:16:24 PM »
I tested the download link and it downloads fine.
I then re-tested the StarcoreV4Alpha2.zip file and it opened just fine as well.
It is an Alpha build and as such was intended for internal testing and review and just never got past that point.
It is not a full release package.
It does need you to have installed Starcore v3 and then add the Starcore v4 Alpha AI folder over top of that installation Overwriting All to bring in the updated and improved teams.
I figure you are the one that 1 starred the package before giving us time to assist you.
With some positive support, I will see what I can do about finishing up the Starcore v4 pack for a full release.
Only you can update your review rating...
Starcore
58
« on: May 02, 2017, 12:21:01 PM »
More like dropping in and looking around and seeing what is going on these days.
How have you all been?
Starcore
59
« on: May 01, 2017, 12:14:03 PM »
Did someone call?
Starcore
60
« on: February 05, 2017, 02:42:10 AM »
Managed to edit together a new AI code. No idea if this has been done before, but I figured it'd be useful.
https://gametechmods.com/uploads/files/7620WimpOmni.rar
This AI, as you can probably tell by its name, is a small variation on the standard Omni py file. Instead of switching to the Shove tactic when its weapons runs out, it instead switches to Evade (which is within Tactics_2.py, which I've included in the rar for ease of access). So instead of suiciding onto the opponent's remaining weapons, it runs away.
Bump Glad to see people are still using and adapting my Omni.py Didn't know if it was still useful for people to AI their bots or if they had moved to something majorily different. That was some 12ish years ago. Starcore
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