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Messages - 123savethewhales
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1721
« on: January 19, 2011, 12:09:57 AM »
From all the testing I've done, there is no detectable difference between piercing and concussion. They do equal damage to both chassis and components (with concussion multiplied by 1.839 as in the DP formula) and they both return damage at the same rate.
This is the test I done 1. Black storm from NAR AI 2. Black Storm with hacked concussion razor (4.2) 3. Cataclysm 4. Cataclysm with hacked concussion razor (4.2) 1 vs 2, 2 wins 1 vs 3, 1 wins 3 vs 4, 3 wins 3 vs 2, 3 wins
1722
« on: January 18, 2011, 11:29:08 PM »
Lol okay I guess I just run the test myself then.
1723
« on: January 18, 2011, 11:10:26 PM »
You can't knowingly add overpowered elements into a game without expecting people to use just that. 1 overpowered component is enough to make everything else with the same function useless.
Though I am still trying to convince Click of that for DSL3, don't try to hide overpowered elements and expect players like me or Naryar to not find it.
1724
« on: January 18, 2011, 10:58:46 PM »
The ant battery was known to be the best way before click's discovery. Click's work only reduced the amount of ants actually used.
As for motors, just forget slim and TWM drive exists. Go strait from Astralflight + Hypno to NPC + Mini.
1725
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:24:35 PM »
Amps never decays. Total battery power decays, and things stays in the same power bracket until total power hits 75%.
Basically, 2 ant and a battlepack lets you fire at full power while driving until you use up 12600 of it's power.
Firing a burst while driving with 4 ants will put you on the first underpower bracket from the start.
1726
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:20:26 PM »
If you use a 40 side panel instead of 50, you can probably get the perm on the center connection point without the extender.
1727
« on: January 18, 2011, 02:10:48 PM »
A lot of people misinterpreted what Click said. I started off testing on a battery with infinite BEMIOR again. With infinite BEMIOR, a burst motor will drain a number of power units equal to its MEMIOR/1.6 each time it is fired. Why divide the MEMIOR by 1.6? I have no clue, that's just how it works. So a DDT with -500 MEMIOR will actually drain 312.5 PU each time it is fired. This divide by 1.6 does not apply to how much amp you need to be full powered, it only means each burst takes amp/1.6 total power. 4 ants vs 5 ants makes noticeable difference on field test. You don't have to take my word for it. Just fire your burst 'while driving' with 4 ant, then with 5 (or in this case battery pack).
1728
« on: January 18, 2011, 01:59:12 PM »
2 is not underpowered. 80% Power for bursts is fine.
No it's not. If you start underpowered your burst will start weak. Battlepack is fine. It's crash cube arena we are talking about. You don't need more power to last more than 20 seconds. Just be full power for the first 2 hits to get that OOTA.
1729
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:43:17 AM »
Well okay. I only know I press the fire button once and see 1 number show up, I didn't really go far into trying to figure out how much contact it made or anything.
I didn't use a popup, I used a chain piston hitting down with 20 ds light for over 9000 damage. That was back in the older installment of NAR AI though. Nowadays bots are so heavily armored with indestructible components you will be lucky to KO bots in 3 minutes.
Do you have anything on how metal works relative to piercing and concussion?
1730
« on: January 18, 2011, 12:18:30 AM »
Lol I won something.
1731
« on: January 17, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »
It's exposed when you face 123. :P
I didn't enter my Flail SnS. I entered something that will probably lose in round 1 from OOTA.
1732
« on: January 17, 2011, 05:22:27 PM »
Just download the whole package from Sage's link. Save yourself the trouble of troubleshooting.
1733
« on: January 17, 2011, 01:06:24 PM »
Lol yeah the gas engine is totally awesome.
1734
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:15:47 PM »
That's odd. I got 1 hit KO in the past before. I can still replicate it.
Or it could be the stack weapon counting as multiple hits, even though only 1 number shows up.
So a popup with 5 to 7 razors stack on a single burst can still 1 hit KO.
1735
« on: January 17, 2011, 05:12:08 AM »
You seem to have forgotten the piercing and concussion values... total DP isn't everything.
I haven't forgot. I will write that example if you want to see it. The point of this is to show how you can add complexity into the game.
1736
« on: January 17, 2011, 04:55:01 AM »
I had a few PM exchange with Click today and we were discussing about component balance, I figure this information might be useful for other modders as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Introduction: The Distinction Between Randomness and Innovation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The distinction between randomness and innovation is perhaps the most important thing to know for any modders. Here I will define the two with a more technical definition.
Randomness - Something different
Innovation - Something different with perceivable potentials to work
The primary distinction is "with perceivable potentials to work", which branches off into 6 sub distinctions
1. Innovation requires knowledge, randomness requires ignorance
2. Innovation requires thoughts, randomness requires laziness
3. Innovation requires foresight, randomness requires hindsight
4. Innovation is fixed in reality, randomness is fixed in fantasies
5. Innovation take flaws inward, randomness places flaws outward
6. Innovation is productive, randomness is destructive
With these distinction, we can see 4 common mistakes that puts people in the unproductive random mode
1. Spam - This happens when a mod lacks intra-balance. Spamming will not be a problem if it isn't as good as mixed.
2. In Game Exploits - This can only happen with an oversight.
3. Mass Cloning - This happen because the in mechanics can only support so much diversity.
4. Negate - This happens when ideas fail to translate into numbers.
And finally, the only way a problem can be fixed is if you "fix it yourself". "Blame the players" will never get you anywhere.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. What is complexity?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Complexity is a state where multiple local maximum exist. A game is said to have complexity if the ranking in strategy varies depending on the situation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. How is complexity differ from diversity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Complexity can have very little to do with diversity, or the total amount of components. In order for complexity to apply, the following must be true
A. Components must serve different functions. Multiple components with very similar functions can increase diversity, but not complexity. For example, while different batteries can increase the diversity of what people use, it does not create any complexity strategies.
B. The differences must be useful in some situations. For examples, while weapons with normals are different, they are never better in any situations. Therefore, they do not lead to an increase in complexity, they simply get ignored.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. How to remain balance without making everything the same?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Components interacts with each other, and it's the interaction where complexity lies.
If there are only two weapons, then the only way to retain balance is if each has an equal chance against each others, and no complexity is formed.
Therefore, the simplest relationship for complexity is a triangle. A interrelated triangle can have advantages/disadvantages without any one side dominating.
For example, suppose we have 3 weapons
Weapon 1 - Low DP High HP weapon, with 100000 efficiency
Weapon 2 - A High DP Low HP weapon, with 60000 efficiency
Weapon 3 - A High Fracture High Frequency weapon
With the sheer efficiency advantage, weapon 1 will easily beat weapon 2
With the high DP, weapon 2 will easily beat weapon 3
With the high fracture, weapon 3 will easily beat weapon 1
In here a complexity relationship is formed, such that saying which of the 3 is the best for weapon to weapon clash is no longer possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Existing Example
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A real example from DSL, first noted by The Ounce, is the Concussion > Piercing > Flail > Concussion relationship.
In normal circumstances, concussion will beat piercing in weapon to weapon clash
Due to a bug, flail boost the piercing damage for both side, but not concussion. Piercing on flail can now beat concussion with this damage boost.
However, as flails cost kg and boost piercing damage for both side, piercing with flail will lose to piercing without flail simply because it will get out weapon.
For those with NAR AI, you can see that Gorg > Black Storm > Cataclysm > Gorg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Extremes, Spillover Effects, and Super Armor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When applying numbers, very often equations are used, either formally or informally. A formal equation would be
Weapon efficiency = 60000 * KG
An informal equation would be
HP should increase with KG
The problem with that is, often time a simple linear function or curve does not necessary reflect balance.
A. While HP*DP is an effective indicator of how well weapons do in weapon to weapon clash (piercing and concussion ignored for the time being), it does not account for it's effectiveness against all other components. A component with high DP is easily better placed onto motors and burst as damage dealers, after all motor does not boost effectiveness of winning the de-weapon war. A component with low DP is better placed as static armor to protect vital components, such as chassis. Small components with low DP is simply useless unless they can serve another function (ex. Beater Bar as extenders).
B. With HP*DP, two extremes emerge past a certain point, the Spillover Effect, and the Super Armor.
The spillover effect is when a component does not have enough HP to take the hit. The component breaks, taking damage to it's total HP, and the rest of the damage dissipated. This becomes a problem when damage is so high, and HP is so low, such that most hit leads to spillovers. The most extreme case would be a 1kg weapon with 1HP and 60000DP. Therefore, in these situation, the quantity of weapons, rather than mass, becomes the determining factor.
The super armor is the exact opposite, when a weapon component has DP so low such that it's HP outclass any armor. While this is no longer limited to light weight component, a fine example would be a component with 1kg, 1DP, and 60000HP. HP*DP simply does not account for a match to only lasting 3 minutes.
To Be Continued.
1737
« on: January 16, 2011, 11:07:29 PM »
Humm...... You know I am not too sure if I want to include this anymore now that I think about it..... It will kill every bot type that can't deal damage in the front (wedge). Imagine flail SnS with flamethrowers in that thing.
Although I will probably throw it into the next beta anyway, with 100 HP/kg, just to see how broken it is.
Edit: It's kinna sad, but It causes major problem when it is destroyed, mainly that it stays there until it falls under the arena floor, sometimes dragging the bot inside with it. So as cool as it is I cannot include it.
1738
« on: January 16, 2011, 10:03:56 PM »
You can't modify a projectile's stat, which unfortunately means you cannot add frequency or additional damage to them.
Not to mention that component touching the arena floor stop dealing damage.
1739
« on: January 16, 2011, 09:38:39 PM »
It's not directly connected to the chassis. I originally wanted to do that, but it gives you the "baseplate components must fit inside the chassis" error if you try it. I made it "invincible" with 900000001 fracture.
If you give it mass, it will just fall through the arena floor into oblivion. The bubble is a separate object in the gmf so it's not really connected to your bot. So it's not possible to make a mobile version unless you make it a cannon, which unfortunately is extremely glitchy (see the ingame description).
Oh I see. Any chance you will have an AI that knows how to return to it's shield bubble until it breaks?
1740
« on: January 16, 2011, 09:25:53 PM »
Shield looks great. Definitely need to include this.
If it's directly connected to the chassis, it is indestructible regardless. I can change that and give it a fixed HP and see how that goes.
If I give it mass, would that allow the shield to travel with the bot? Or would that lift the shield bubble off the arena floor? I am thinking a mobile version would be cool too.
I don't think I will include the rocket though, flying bots, like crawlers, kills too much diversity in bot building.
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