Author Topic: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky  (Read 9004 times)

Offline Hoppin

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TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« on: August 30, 2019, 09:43:19 PM »
Yo.

Just know, there's gonna be the occasional name drop. **** you, enjoy

Tournaments
I think the tournament scene is getting more and more restrictive, and in my honest opinion I see it resulting in not only a downgrade in robots, but also fights.

The rulesets of tournaments are looking to purely limit the "problem" components, however can quite easily be abused, intentionally or not. (Example of this is: Thanatos Redeemer. Because it doesnt use the "problem" components it was unable to slip under the radar with 8 beaters and 4 matidas. Which is more DPS than what was setout to prevent). In regards to quality, people are just gonna be building to the limit then chucking armour on it however, I recognise this is not 100% true, I see it being a problem for the less good builders. But without some kinda of quality control rule, imo will lead to lazy builds. This last part leads into the discords and the splits in communities.

In terms of fight quality, because of everything having a reduction in DPS, I can fully see a meta in which gutripping becomes even more prevelant than it currently is. This will be boring. Sorry folks, you suck.

Now, I don't think this is the fault of a single tournament. It's people being to stupid to create a new ruleset or a heavily modify version of another. They just copy paste the text into their own thread of whatever.

Modding
Everyone thinks they can fix DSL.


They can't.

Every time I see a discussion over this ****ing game, I see people saying things like "We need to change X components" or "We should nerf X tooth". Please understand you cannot just make a small change to this game to fix it all, nor add X components. You will just make another tooth the "problem component". You would need to rebalance the entire game and even then, with a game that uses pure component related statistics people will just use the formula to calculate the best component. I'd rather see a variety of colourful components than some dog sh** balance changes. Bildschirm is making progress on this, and it's something I'll give him credit on. Along with Geice's recent changes to the download section, I hope we can compile all of the sh** together for a true DSL 2.2 CE. I think like Geice mentioned, we should be looking once a month or so to make changes to CE with what gets removed, updated or added.

The naming system right now for the versions is pretty dog sh** too if I might add. Legit just keep it 2.2 please. I beg. There's nothing truly significant to warrant a 2.3, even the actual 2.3 that fotepx made wasn't, albeit closer than what Bildschirm has been doing

Discord and other places
Right then, time to smack talk the discords.

I think we at this point are aware of the relationship between the three/four main communities of Ra2. GTM, OW, MS2 & PWS and the relationship each discord/community has with each other. Both with GTM are dog sh** and I want to break down each community from my understanding. I've been a mod in most of the Ra2 communities, so I know who does what, and what everyone actually thinks of each other for the most part.

GTM. I'm gonna start off with my hometown as it were. Boomer country. The forum is the main place of Ra2 still, due to housing the resources for the game and all of the add-ons needed. However, anything outside that and RR2 is pretty scarce. You'll probably get the odd tournament post or showcase bump. This discord has realistically been the odd pop-ups in other chats or a fairly consistant one in the "controversial" not retard chat.

The relationship I have seen unfold with new members and the common users is that, we tend to sh** on what people would regard as "dumbass" behaviour, it's a wild west of a place, I must say. Forums less so. However, I have seen a quicker increase in building skills, etc when new members have a consistent interaction with the "toxic" members of GTM. Code Red is a pretty good example of this imo, he showcase the difference between getting "toxic" feedback vs the nice feedback over on other discords.

MS2, now I'm not familiar with Mike's discord but I do know it's not just Ra2, it's his youtube. So I can't rag on it too bad. But I will say that if Code and Billy are the "most experienced" active users there, you're in the wrong server. Sorry guys, whilst your advice is pretty bog standard, it's not particularly ground breaking or expansive. It's all I can really say about the server other than it contains all the new guys we've seen the influx of, and whilst they suck. They'll get better.


OW. This is really, the big one. The facebook of Ra2. Right, now I think the Orcs Wars discord is a lot of "We're nice to keep a collective of people together". Those with conflicting opinions are just brushed away in my opinion, it's an opinion of the forum I've discussed with some people and I think it's a shared opinion. Now, of course I think have a community, you want the general idea to be similar, but OW brings a level which imo is unsettling. Personally I don't believe it too be a fault of staff or owner, more just a general vibe I get. Staff are another issue I have with OW, with only 1 mod active, it's not where it should be and the GM team comprises of mostly near unbearable users, it really does make me think. I'm aware of Orc's stance on moderating and having trust in his team, but I think that by having a mod team, you should be ready to put that trust on the line for the sake of finding the right team, it's a job in itself and it should be viewed that way.

In regards to the user base there, I think the community works in the opposite to GTM, in which it's very inviting to new members, but with interactions purely with members exclusive to that discord, it results in slow learning and creating general excuses to not improve. I'll be using Mr BK and PrimevalBrony as an example of this.

PWS, it doesnt give the Mods enough control to handle situations. It's really stupid. Overall, it's really a mix of the above mentioned

Overall, I'm aware that discords are what the community future is at, I just don't think I like it. It's good as a consistent chat room, but idk.

Zoomers
Zoomers are currently the oddest group of this community. I enjoy the determination that you all possess and the eagerness to jump into the advanced stuff. However, most of you are yikes. The mentality of the zoomers can range from crap on all with no excuse, which I believe to be a copy or myself and roboteer. Superbomb has demonstrated this imo the most. The other is to do the full 180 of this, in which you shut down anything which can be perceived as offensive. But all of you find a way to circle jerk over some old boomer (Badger and Badnik) and how they got slammed in X, Y, Z tournament. :V

Garfie
Why not :)

TL:DR
-You can't fix the game
-Discord is full of tards.
-I hate you all
-I hope you copypasta this, it'll be epic
-Thanks
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 08:04:28 AM by Hoppin »
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Offline 090901

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2019, 10:06:32 PM »
Yo.

09 was originally gonna make this post about GTM dying n all, but I said I'll do it. (Plus I get to rag on what I hate about Ra2 people).

???????? What

dnt try to send the zoomers after me smh
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 12:26:10 AM by 090901 »

Offline Gulden

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2019, 10:10:12 PM »
I have no idea where I stand in this, but I will say I enjoyed the read. 
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Offline NickyDustyOwl

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2019, 10:43:56 PM »
You cant fix RA2 unless you rebuild it from the ground up with the source code, which will never happen.
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Offline Reier

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2019, 10:52:51 PM »
Tournaments
mentioned this in my competitive irl thread but it's just a problem of the irl meta as a whole. you can't build for looks and combat effectiveness with ra2. you gotta pick one or the other. if ra2 was a game where a real life design was just as effective ingame then you could but it isn't. the old standard rules barely had this issue but standard builds take away a lot of what many people enjoy about the game and i realize this. there isn't an easy solution.

Modding
dsl was always crappily balanced, just back in 2008 no one really bothered that hard to infomine and figure out all the efficiencies until 123stw. which led to the great efficiency race which had its own pros and cons. which led to ironforge which is still the only ra2 version I would consider overall balanced. use DSL to build artbots and IF to build bots you fight with. doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Discord and other places
gtm is old. older than many members, seriously. as someone who might seem incredibly ancient to newbies i can say that a big reason for the decline is a combination of culture shift away from forums and just ra2 being squeezed out of every drop of innovation that can be. it's just old, man. for a crappy budget game it's a miracle it's still around at all.

there is also a huge shift away from tight engineering into art bots. not bad or good, but the pretty bots today are nowhere near as well designed on the whole as from the pros of yesteryear when it comes to actual battles. i'm also aware this high standard scared a lot of people away.

the main problem with discords is they have no way to look back at old posts. very shortsighted, great for chat but they do not provide a substitute for a forum. they're made for different things.

Zoomers
if you act stupid then you'll be treated as such. been this way since the dawn of time. just be kind and respectful to others.
fyi badnik is a newbie and i don't really know who any of the people hoppin mentioned by name are including hoppin.




tldr; yes but its always been that way
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Offline 09090901

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2019, 11:14:33 PM »
nobody wants to use a forum in 2019, and nobody wants to use anything with the letters 'GTM' in the name. there's a reason gtm gets next to no new users nowadays while all the other communities bring them in by the bundle

most of y'all already realise how trash gtm's rep is in the robot combat community by now, and more than likely we're going to take it to the grave

i think ra2 actually has a decent future ahead of it, but i don't see it being with gtm as the main community. most of the ra2 player base already either doesn't use gtm, or if they do, then it's very rarley
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 11:56:53 PM by geese »
DSL-IRL is the libtard’s meta. Go drink more soylent, retard! #BLUELIVESMATTER

Offline Reier

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2019, 11:20:18 PM »
nobody wants to use a forum in 2019, and nobody wants to use anything with the letters 'GTM' in the name. there's a reason gtm gets next to no new users nowadays while all the other communities bring them in by the bundle

most of y'all already realise how trash gtm's rep is in the robot combat community by now, and more than likely we're going to take it to the grave

i think can ra2 actually has a decent future ahead of it, but i don't see it being with gtm as the main community
the irony is a bit stunning. you do realize constantly complaining about a forum sucking without adding helpful feedback is exactly the problem that causes a forum to be bad right

not criticizing any admin work you do, just saying that these constant snide comments is hardly being the change you wanna see. and if you don't wanna see change then that's another problem.
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Offline Scrap Daddy

Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2019, 01:00:47 AM »
Wew lad. Gotta say I agree with reier.

Not sure how this type of attitude helps. Not to mention, from what I've seen, the 4chan style of ironic sh**posting was pretty much fostered by you guys in disco.

Offline kix

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2019, 03:34:37 AM »
Thats why we need me as an admin, we need that forum hierarchy

Fr tho, i do have gripes with ow server, mainly a person that bends his knee for the wrong reason

Offline 09090901

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2019, 03:40:33 AM »
not gonna disagree with anything said so far, none of us have a very optimistic view on gtm, but i'm pretty sure hoppin was primarily referring to the discord ra2 communities with most of his points (unless they explicitly mentioned gtm)

and yes, a lot of gtm's bad rep comes from the discord sh**posting. a lot of it also comes from people who are more than happy to share their experience of how they got ran off the forums years ago by the vets when they were kids
DSL-IRL is the libtard’s meta. Go drink more soylent, retard! #BLUELIVESMATTER

Offline pokebro14

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2019, 03:57:31 AM »
Tbh I'm kinda new so I missed out on the peak of GTMs popularity when there were more people here but I can see why this place isn't as appealing to newer people especially when there are people who will try and shut down newer people who want to start getting into the game ( not saying I'm not part of the problem because I do it a lot ) people either not giving good advice or no advice at all is just kinda sad and won't help this place grow or help users develop. Robo does a great job at giving advice but giving advice I think is better suited to discord with thr only advantage I see from forums being that finding previous information is easier.
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Offline 09090901

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2019, 06:08:05 AM »
Thats why we need me as an admin, we need that forum hierarchy
yeah hard no

if someone like orc, sev, or killer wants to run the community then i have 0 issues
DSL-IRL is the libtard’s meta. Go drink more soylent, retard! #BLUELIVESMATTER

Offline kix

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2019, 08:42:06 AM »
Thats why we need me as an admin, we need that forum hierarchy
yeah hard no
dude wtf riged

Offline 次のブラックハート

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2019, 09:22:25 AM »

PWS, it doesnt give the Mods enough control to handle situations. It's really stupid. Overall, it's really a mix of the above mentioned

before i start just gonna say i dont really care about anything in hops post but i'd just like to give my views on the PWS bit because i sort of have a little bit of interest for it

So first off the Parsec World Series server is specifically for Parsec World Series and any of its spinoffs, I certainly wouldn't say it is revolved around the community.

I have the server so it is easy for people to enter, compete and ask about Parsec World Series, it also stops me from flooding other Discords with videos or announcements, apart from the cheeky advertising paragraph every few months or so.

I know the Mod team for PWS is slim but in my eyes the server really doesn't require one. I feel I can solve any arguments fairly quickly and that having too many mouths in the mix (especially with moderating power) just makes situations worse 9 times out of 10.

I was all for having the old mod team of Robo, Killer and Hop but constantly seeing @'s for GMOD in the announcements and overall irrelevant subjects began to get frustrating and therefore I revoked the moderator role from Hop and Killer, now dont be fooled I honestly am all for having a laugh or posting a meme but I just saw them at the time as too common with too little benefit to the community being like 1/20 people play GMOD, Robo is still on the mod team simply because I see him as the most qualified to keep everybody in line if I am not available despite how Robo sees it himself.

I am perfectly aware I can change permissions of my Moderator role on Discord to counter this but in all honesty I have 0 ****ing clue how to use roles on Discord properly as most of the changes I do make to permissions or channels just end up not working or broken, the Moderator roles are purely for resolving conflicts as they are extremely common in the RA2 community as a whole but really any standard user in PWS has the capabilities to resolve an argument without just throwing full caps keyboard warrior insults around instead of trying to resolve the issue despite how little you like the person who is causing it.

Again the server is simply there for ease of access to PWS information, I am well aware however the ruleset and organization of the server is well overdue for refurbishment so I will attend to that soon.

Talk about this behind my back or to my face as much as you please the latter would be much preferred because then it helps me learn and improve.

Thankyou for attending my TED Talk, I'll see you all on Monday for the World Counting Backwards Championship.

xx

p.s - cant wait to blow you at AWS hop you 4ft piece of ****.

p.s to the p.s - lol i probably didnt structure this right either oh well, sorry gtm mods.  heck
i am the person who brought transgenders into the meta

dont @ me

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Offline TheOrcCorp

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2019, 09:52:57 AM »
Right then...so first of all, Hop discussed bits of this with me about bits last night so I'm happy to see his thoughts in full. Time for a big essay but for the record, TLDR: I mostly agree with everything Hop has said.

Tournaments
Right, I do feel this is mainly my fault. "It's not a evil intent thing" as Hop said to me last night. You wanna try and make things fairer and more equal but you end up causing more issues (like Thanatos Redeemer which is still a ****ing massive derp on my part). While I have seen tournaments using elements of the OW rulesets and that is an honour(?), the beauty of GTM/RA2 tournaments is that every tournament should be different or FEEL different. Back when I joined GTM, I think Annihilation Nation had just ended, Banter Wars was ongoing and there was a lot more variety. Different arenas, different rulesets, different weightclasses. I feel we're heavily lacking that today. In terms of OW: while I'm working on OW4 atm, I am going to be heavily tinkering on the ruleset for the future so it isn't as limiting.

Modding
I 100% agree with Hop here. Heck if I trusted anyone to "fix" or "patch" RA2 then it would be Geice as he has imo the most sense out of any of us. However, that is his choice and no-one elses.

Discords
Might come as a shock to a lot but I agree wholeheartedly again. I do feel there is a stigma against GTM/RA2 in general. In recent terms, I've been seeing people coming to the GTM homepage, seeing topics like the "seagulls" topic and going "Yeah, this is GTM alright". After heavy self-reflection, I don't feel my introduction to GTM was the best. My showcase was recieved well which was great and encouraged me to keep building but the Discords are where things started to get a bit rough. When I was looking after the AHOL discord, I was being told "Don't invite them, they're from GTM etc etc" I think that started an unhealthy mindset that has persisted all this time, not proud of that. I do feel we need to mend the relationships we have with other communities but only if they're game to do so. I know RA2 doesn't have the best standing with ARC/Garry's Wars from what I've seen/heard so we can only try and improve if they want to do the same.

As for OW, yeah I agree. I do think that the people who don't listen to feedback or complain about making changes that then say "Why are they being mean to me, they're so toxic, do something" need to toughen up a bit while I do feel that the other side of the coin generally mean well but can come across very harsh at times then it does appear a bit borderline. Yup, the comment about my trust is true and after some heavy thinking, I'm gonna be reshuffling the Discord roles and taking some chances.

Basically, if you want to improve, you'll listen. If you don't and go up in arms about making changes or "THAT'LL TAKE FOREVERRRRRR" then you'll keep having issues.

Zoomers
I guess I accidentally talked about this in the previous part but yeah, can see where Hop is coming from. You can also be in both teams at the same time as some people have showed! :P

Garfie
Erm...you whut?

if someone like orc, sev, or killer wants to run the community then i have 0 issues
I'm sorry but no. I haven't done a good job of running OW (something that I'm trying to improve as I've hopefully shown I want to do via this wall) and believe the community would be better run by someone else.

Again, I'll repeat at the end:
TLDR: I mostly agree with everything Hop has said.

Hoping we can make the future of RA2, however long it lasts, a brighter one.

P.S: Hoppin is still a twit but he loves OW and that's all that matters :heart_smiley:
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Offline kill343gs

Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2019, 05:44:12 PM »
I agree that GTM's relationship with others is and always has been a key issue. I tried really hard to reach out to all the different communities last summer to make connections and mend fences, and was mostly ignored/mocked for my efforts. I felt that despite the reputation of the community, most people had a level of respect for me. I was mostly proven wrong. If someone else could succeed where I failed, I would be wholly impressed.


For once the mods did something right
#MakeGTMGreatAgain

Offline RpJk

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2019, 06:53:02 PM »
That explains part of the reason why GTM is so quiet now. You all have mostly moved to Discord but scattered it seems?
Hopefully the place still continues for years to come.
I've personally moved to Reddit and other places under a new name.

I miss the activity here when I joined back in 2011. Very lively.
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I've moved to other forums. Under a different name. This is where it all began.

Offline Hoppin

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2019, 07:56:20 PM »
I agree that GTM's relationship with others is and always has been a key issue. I tried really hard to reach out to all the different communities last summer to make connections and mend fences, and was mostly ignored/mocked for my efforts. I felt that despite the reputation of the community, most people had a level of respect for me. I was mostly proven wrong. If someone else could succeed where I failed, I would be wholly impressed.

Personally I think people outside of GTM get along well with us on an individual level. Just dont like the branding we're associated
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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2019, 10:21:33 PM »
I agree that GTM's relationship with others is and always has been a key issue. I tried really hard to reach out to all the different communities last summer to make connections and mend fences, and was mostly ignored/mocked for my efforts. I felt that despite the reputation of the community, most people had a level of respect for me. I was mostly proven wrong. If someone else could succeed where I failed, I would be wholly impressed.

Personally I think people outside of GTM get along well with us on an individual level. Just dont like the branding we're associated
So a brand change in order?
Then it's settled.  From now on we're GeeseTriggersMrstrsyko.

On a serious note, though.  This is an issue that isn't easily fixed without either more discipline, or a more friendly image.
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Offline Somebody

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Re: TL:DR Ra2 is sucky
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2019, 11:54:04 PM »
Here for my baby boomer hot takes since I've been here 11 years now. The RA2/GTM is dying bitchposts have been a thing since the moment I got here. It just didn't used to be from the admins. I agree with Reier. I also agree that building/tournaments is nothing like what it used to be. Whether that is for better or for worse is up to the reader's opinions, but people will always build to win. If anything, you could milk a couple good years out of standard tournaments just because the bar is so low now that it'll take years for Stock/DSL-S to get back to where it once was.

You're never going to get a million people on here, especially for a 16 year old game. And some people's feelings are going to be hurt, because that's the nature of a forum. People these days aren't used to the fact that the dimmest bulb burns just as bright on a forum. Stupid is as visible as smart, and speaks from the same platform. The key is that there needs to be admins/mods that rise above it and can help guide the ship and keep people in line.

I think it's worth it to just maintain the community you have and let its longevity and resources attract folks. Other communities have always come and gone and these new ones will go too once the people shepherding them lose interest. Everything mentioned here is based around a single person running the show, and is therefore on a timer. GTM seems to be the only place that has properly handed over the keys of power into multiple successions of admins/mods. People will come once it is the only playground to play in once again.

GTM was my creative outlet for robots for years, and filled a niche when I couldn't build in the real world. I think it has the potential to serve that purpose for people still. But it's tougher since it seems like the site as a whole is now apathetic with regards to real combat bots, or at least is discussing them on other platforms. The jump from virtual to real isn't encouraged anymore. There used to be a much more thriving community here of people discussing the latest episodes of all the shows, or past/live events. The more people who make that jump, the better the outside's view of this community will be.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

tl;dr: life sucks, and the opinions of sad zoomers are irrelevant, even if they're just as loud. Don't be an admin unless you care, and go build a real beetleweight. It's like $300 and you'll learn a lot.
I built that big robot on that TV show that time