The DSL 2.2 preview and news thread

[Trovaner]

He has already updated El Diablo for DSL3...

All the previous updates have been building up to something, and now that the round tank treads and the axle extenders are done, I've finished the new El Diablo!

(Image removed from quote.)

It's now a MW like the real bot, and it's also much more dangerous.  The drum is low enough to hit any wedge that tries to get under it, and unlike a lot of replicas, it actually has a decent number of weapon components.

In case you're wondering why the drum looks different, it's based off of this version of El Diablo:

http://www.robotcombat.com/images/bbsf02/large/el_diablo.jpg

Next up: Firestorm.  It's about time I started AI'ing these new replicas, and I decided the first team is going to be fire-themed and include Bob, El Diablo, Firestorm, and an as-yet-undetermined SHW (Alcoholic Stepfather?)

[Shum]

Sorry, I want ask about mod progress: how much will be long before mod will be finished? And if it possible, can you upload that part of mod that already finished, I afraid that it will not be finished soon…

P.S. Sorry for my english, I hope it is really to understand me 

P.P.S. I hope iyou made replica of Sgt. Bash 

[LiNcK]

I pretty much think people are asking too much...
I think it would be better if DSL 3 was made basic, Like the components, Replicas & Bots but the new Arenas could stay out for now, Then after its release Click could work on them & Release em in an "Update" or something :P
Like... We dont "Need" like 10 new arenas at the same time when DSL 3 gets released, Thats what I mean.

I find it kinda frustrating when Im working on something for long time & Like I dont really get any feedback since I dont show it off I think I suck or something D:

Thats why I like to show the stuff I make halfway or when it looks decent enough to get that extra "Enthousiasm push" to keep working on it :3

[123savethewhales]

I think the replicas should be skipped.  I mean they look nice, but has no gameplay value and will become obsolete once the first AI pack comes out.

[G.K.]

Replicas are the reason we have DSL. They are an integral part of what it is. We should defintely stay with them.

[Shum]

I agree with G.K. I dowload DSL mod for replics, and only when I install it I wind a lot of new components, new AI bot and so esle. Ans when I read this tread I was happy to know that replics came better.

P.S. Oh, I fogot to say that I hope to see Shunt replica 

[JoeBlo]

I think the replicas should be skipped.  I mean they look nice, but has no gameplay value and will become obsolete once the first AI pack comes out.

one of the main focal points of DSL3 is making the replicas much better at fighting...

competition has degraded DSL 2 to selected methods and parts but the idea was always realism... to make it as close to a simulator as possible, thats why so many motors, batteries and such are all real life parts..

[123savethewhales]

one of the main focal points of DSL3 is making the replicas much better at fighting...

Impossible unless replica uses a completely different set of txt.  Even with vastly OP replica parts they do not have the shape advantage when compared with non replicas.

competition has degraded DSL 2 to selected methods and parts but the idea was always realism... to make it as close to a simulator as possible, thats why so many motors, batteries and such are all real life parts..

No degrading has taken place in DSL2.  The imbalance among components and the broken physics engine was always there.  An update patch with balance fix can easily double the amount of usable components.

It is a good thing that DSL didn't turn out as intended.  If all I get to do is clone the shape of a real life bot and leave no room for creativity or exploration, I would have long stop playing DSL.  Looking at your showcase I would assume you actually like moving beyond replicas.

[Naryar]

I side with 123, not because of fanboyism, but because I feel the replicas are just here because of sentimental value.

[Scorpion]

I side with 123, not because of fanboyism, but because I feel the replicas are just here because of sentimental value.

Yes, perhaps, but still, it is entertaining to fight against them IMO.

[123savethewhales]

Well, replicas with custom components are easily the most time consuming part of making DSL3.  The tradeoff for having replica would probably be 1 or 2 years of wait, along with balance compensation.  The same amount of time can instead be used to make 50 or so components and balance them too.  If DSL3 do have replicas, I rather they be weak, or use a complete different set of txt.  Trying to balance the mod around them will lead to more imbalance than the modder can ever anticipate.

It's great to have everything, but at what cost?

[Trovaner]

I think having some replicas in DSL is important to the pack's overall appeal. I don't however believe that there should be very many new replicas because they tend to be weaker than most battle optimized bots and they require quite a bit more work to make (custom components and skins). I think adding 3 new replicas would be a nice balance of nostalgia and difficulty.

Optimizing what is already there would probably be my number one concern...
-The components could be tweaked so that they are more balanced. Doing so would make the beginner's curve less steep and would undoubtedly improve the variety of bots. The replicas could use custom TXT files to make them more combat effective but most of the GMF's should be available as standard components (obviously the floating AP GMFs shouldn't be available but it would be nice to have all the AI parts (even if they would be weaker than the ones used on the replicas themselves)).
-The arenas should be better equipped for AI battles. Usually if the AI doesn't work well on certain maps, people don't play them as often.
-The arenas could also use some better organization. Right now, there is little difference between obstacle course and battle royal. One way of fixing this would be to have all the AI friendly arenas inside of one and all the unfriendly arenas inside the other.
-Improved graphics (including a little more GIB work). They don't need to be changed completely but it would be nice to have a fresh new take on some of them.
-More APs on all the components.

In terms of additions, I'm thinking something like:
-6 new combat arenas
-2 new just-for-fun arena
-2 new teams (including the 3 new replicas)
-10 new components (they don't need to be complicated)

[Clickbeetle]

OK here's what I was planning.  Just to stop this debate here.


- There will be at most 15 teams of replica bots.  As many as possible will be existing replicas revamped to be more competitive.  The rest will be new.  Some previous replicas may not reappear in DSL3.


Now I know this is controversial because the replicas are not seen to add anything to the game except nostalgia.  Well, that's not quite true.  They also add COMPONENTS--a lot of them, some of which are useless on regular bots, but others which can be very useful.  An example is the new axle extender I made.  I made that because I needed it for El Diablo, but then I realized it would be a useful stock component as well.  Expect a bunch of new replica parts in DSL3.


Also, the stock DSL AI is not supposed to be super difficult.  That's what AI packs are for.  Keep in mind that fresh noobs will download this too and they won't be ready for 123AI-level difficulty.  The replicas will be tougher than they were in DSL2, but still beatable with any decent bot.


And lastly, DSL started out as a balanced replica pack to counter the AU Battlebots pack, and it wouldn't feel right to leave them out.


- If I get lazy, I will make less than 15 teams of replicas and fill the rest with bots made with stock DSL3 parts.  Obviously this can't be done until everything else is finished, however.


- There will not be very many new arenas.  Maybe 1 or 2.


- Components will be rebalanced of course... but I am having a hard time deciding how to do this as more about the damage formula is learned.


My most recent thought is to go the Backlash and Space Arena route where no weapons have normals, except backwards--EVERY weapon has normals.  This will make it much more difficult to simply spam weapons and count on out-weaponing your opponent--you also have to think about how those weapons are placed.  I think weapon designs could become much more strategic and less about outweaponing (though outweaponing will certainly still be a major factor).  It also eliminates the need for trying to balance normal weapons with non-normal weapons.


Then, due to 123's observations on the spillover effect and light weapons always being better than heavy ones, and high DP weapons always being better than low DP ones due to hitting non-weapons, I was thinking to make all the heavy weapons shifted toward higher DP and all the light weapons low DP.  123 will probably point out some major flaw with that plan though...


- There will be new components, but some old components will also disappear.  In particular some of those weird replica components like the Typhoon flag and Firestorm air tank, but also the metal hinge.  Now this isn't some blind reaction to try and stop the wedge war--I'm not so naive as that.  But getting rid of the metal hinge will force players to use other hinge components--most importantly, other components that AGOD less frequently.  The end result should be wedges are just as good, but there's less AGOD and everyone is happy.


- The race mode may be postponed and released as a later addon, to save time.

[Somebody]

I think that Metal Hinges and other removed DSL 2 parts should stay as DSL 3 Cheatbot2 parts. And what will you do about the weapons like razor tips with the normals?

[Badnik96]

woah. Sick. Now I can't wait for this more than ever!

[Clickbeetle]

I think that Metal Hinges and other removed DSL 2 parts should stay as DSL 3 Cheatbot2 parts. And what will you do about the weapons like razor tips with the normals?

Razors will only do damage with the tip.


The only problematic weapon is the mace... I will either remove it, or give it a huge efficiency handicap. Like half of normal weapons.

[Somebody]

Well they are rather hard too attach anyways, so they would be hard to spam. A new realistic rule part against super-stacking weapons (see any Hope No More bot) would be beneficial. And what about spiked clubs as well?

[Trovaner]

The normals idea would be awesome if you got it to work out. Instead of having maces and spiked clubs, maybe you could make a heavy extender with APs that matched the spike locations. If you did this, you could also limit what was attached to it by having a larger collision mesh than display mesh (and have the collision mesh of the spikes be slightly lifted from their APs).

If you would like some help with the race mode, I'd be more than willing to lend some assistance (just so that it is released with the rest). I've done all the python stuff already so it would just be a case of copy/paste and fine tune. I could also do an arena or two if necessary.

[LiNcK]

I think that Metal Hinges and other removed DSL 2 parts should stay as DSL 3 Cheatbot2 parts. And what will you do about the weapons like razor tips with the normals?

Razors will only do damage with the tip.


The only problematic weapon is the mace... I will either remove it, or give it a huge efficiency handicap. Like half of normal weapons.

Just the tip... But wouldent that make them almost useless for popups..?
Since you wont be able to hit them from the side anymore :P


And about the replicas... Maybe theyll get optimized for fighting, And theyll do their good damage & All, But look at the Razer replica...
Its AWESOME & The damage is awesome too, But if its wedge cant get under bots, Razer will be useless...
And we can expect almost all bots having wedges in DSL3 aswell, Just like DSL2

[madman3]

Booo! I like the razors as they are.