Honestly? I don't know.
Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.
If you wish to support a meta, do a tournament for it or keep quiet with the complaints please because you won't change the majority's favorite meta by simple persuasion.
Dreamcast is right. If we help and revive Stock with a new Starcore pack. We can encourage more people to build more Stock bots over the basic Pop-ups, SNS and HS bots fest. For example we could build a few Gut-ripper bots or VS bots for a change instead. I know that not everyone will help and I understand that for numerous reasons like with the Wiki, but if everyone can play a part we'll get somewhere at least.Honestly? I don't know.
Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.
Then help encourage growth.
Honestly? I don't know.
Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.
Then help encourage growth, or don't try to stop it. I remember you posted a good point during an IRL vs. Stock-Unrealistic argument.If you wish to support a meta, do a tournament for it or keep quiet with the complaints please because you won't change the majority's favorite meta by simple persuasion.
This was a good point, a meta's proponents should promote activity in that meta. However, now I feel there is a contradictory caveat: Stock players need to stop moaning, but the humblest one should consider developing an AI pack for DSL.
This is in part why I am asking if it is worth it to update the Starcore v4 pack?
DSL and Starcore Stock are the 2 branches of the fork we started so many years ago.
Stock for people that wanted to play with what came with the original game and could be presented to each other in unmodified versions of the game. The key rule was always: What could be built in the RA2 botlab?
DSL for people that wanted closer to Real Life robotics and representations of the bots they have seen with reasonably fair and balanced parts but definitely more than what Stock RA2 provided.
Starcore Stock AI packs have always been about helping people through example on bot and AI building techniques.
Is that needed anymore?
Do you have enough Stock packs to sate your interests and needs?
Is something like Starcore AI v4.0 effectively a dead horse?
While it would be nice to enhance the UI, Botlab, additional arenas included, patched for wide monitors and the like is that acceptable and desired for a Stock pack?
Starcore
Contradiction or not, I have a point. What could a new pack cover that hasn't been already?
I said "maybe" for a reason: I was simply proposing an idea. Hell, I don't really like DSL-S, i just felt with a new pack on a new mod (which just got a new rebalance) the meta might be able to be updated, improved. But what can really be done with Stock?
I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but I think it should be considered.
I feel maybe creating an DSL Standard pack would be best, maybe using Mr. AS's rebalance pack, because Stock is kind of stagnant currently.Why don't you **** off
I feel maybe creating an DSL Standard pack would be best, maybe using Mr. AS's rebalance pack, because Stock is kind of stagnant currently.Why don't you **** off
Contradiction or not, I have a point. What could a new pack cover that hasn't been already?
I said "maybe" for a reason: I was simply proposing an idea. Hell, I don't really like DSL-S, i just felt with a new pack on a new mod (which just got a new rebalance) the meta might be able to be updated, improved. But what can really be done with Stock?
I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but I think it should be considered.
And what of DSL-S? What can be done in DSL-S that hasn't been done before? Literally everything has been done. Just because the parts are "rebalanced" does not mean you can make a new bot type.
Honestly? I don't know.The problem is, and this is coming from someone with a bit of stigma towards stock, is that Starcore AI isn't gonna be the same if it was another metagame. Its sorta like making something like LD AI be Retooled-Standard. Feels unnatural is what i'm trying to say here. (that was a bad analogy, i apologise)
Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.
I feel maybe creating an DSL Standard pack would be best, maybe using Mr. AS's rebalance pack, because Stock is kind of stagnant currently.
Why don't you **** offReal mature, mate. A veteran of RA2 re-appears and that's what he'll see in the comments. Because its easier to tell someone to **** off than to actually give reasoning as to why it is a bad idea.
If everything's been done in DSL-S, then Everything in Stock has also been done. Thing is the current DSL-S meta has slightly more options than stock personally.
Also, why are you all taking this as a personal insult? Good lord.
unless I'm allowed to send in my patented VS.
Plan to.unless I'm allowed to send in my patented VS.
Are you going to charge a fee for licensing?
Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.Whenever I see something like this posted, 90% of the time it's from someone that only builds IRL.
To be fair, though, you do have the obvious bot types that have huge advantages in certain metagames, but not with others. Stock has the HS/SnS/Popup flood with a few other bot types, but you do have other bot types in metagames that have their obvious upsides, like with IF's Popups/VS'es/Flippers, DSL 2.2's efficiency curve and Hammertraps/VS'es/rammers and Retooled's similar weapon efficiency curve, only shallower. Then again, I haven't really done much of other metagames to really have a true view, so I may not be the most reliable.Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.Whenever I see something like this posted, 90% of the time it's from someone that only builds IRL.
Also, fixing up or making slight tweaks to half the bots in an existing AI pack is easier than making something like 100 or 200 new robots from scratch.
IMO, Starcore was never a max efficiency AI pack in my eyes. While it definitely has effective designs in it, and it certainly helped move stock forward, it's greatest strength has always been the diversity of bots. There are lots of bots in SC you won't see in another AI pack. Yes bot types aren't all equal, but it's like that in every meta and has been like that since the start of ra2, and as long as rebuilds are built to the best of the design while still resembling their predecessors, bitching about the meta shouldn't be an issue.
The packs are available at: https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=5/ (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=5/)I was more hoping someone had extracted the bot files from the teams so I could open them in the lab. But that's just me being lazy.
I recommend installing Starcore V3 then replacing the /AI teams with the /AI team in the Starcore v4 Alpha2 pack.
Note: It is an Alpha and not a full pack release.
Starcore
Always down to help out!have you finally perfected your rebuild of jabberwock? :mrgreen:
Honestly? I don't know.Actually, stiltbots currently dominate the meta. Starcore AI needs some stiltbots. Also, I've never been the best stock builder, but as a fan of V3 back when it was released, I'd love to contribute.
Stock's been slowly dying down, and it's kinda become a HS, Popup, SNS fest.
I feel maybe creating an DSL Standard pack would be best, maybe using Mr. AS's rebalance pack, because Stock is kind of stagnant currently.
When you say Stiltbots, I assume you mean bots like Mome Rath of Team Jabberwocky in Starcore v3 based on Bumbler by Corporate Goon.Yeah, the 140cm square extender got accepted as a legit stock part a few years back (it was a hidden stock part that is 140 cm and weighs 5kg), and its main value has been making stiltbots actually practical. They're still weak vs wide has/sns, but HS becoming more compact actually helps them.
Glad to see that style of bot has come into its own. As I recall the issue with that kind of bot was designing the legs wide enough to not be taken out by a HS, SnS or pretty much any "wide" bot.
Starcore
When you say Stiltbots, I assume you mean bots like Mome Rath of Team Jabberwocky in Starcore v3 based on Bumbler by Corporate Goon.Yeah, the 140cm square extender got accepted as a legit stock part a few years back (it was a hidden stock part that is 140 cm and weighs 5kg), and its main value has been making stiltbots actually practical.
Glad to see that style of bot has come into its own. As I recall the issue with that kind of bot was designing the legs wide enough to not be taken out by a HS, SnS or pretty much any "wide" bot.
Starcore
When you say Stiltbots, I assume you mean bots like Mome Rath of Team Jabberwocky in Starcore v3 based on Bumbler by Corporate Goon.Yeah, that's the style of bot. One way to cheat the max sphere to make the bot wider is using bursts to mount your legs so you can move them inwards to mount your drive and supports, and then move them outwards past the max sphere when you're done.
Glad to see that style of bot has come into its own. As I recall the issue with that kind of bot was designing the legs wide enough to not be taken out by a HS, SnS or pretty much any "wide" bot.
Starcore
You wouldn't happen to have any of the old rebuilds sent way back, would you?Not him, but Virus Bomb was nice enough to send me some old rebuilds of his.
The modern stiltbot works well against the big three robot types. Especially if you build them the way Geice mentioned.
Speaking of anti popup/HS/SnS designs, would an all crawler team be a good idea? The crawler has evolved since 2004 and those newer robots are legal in tournaments that do not explicitly ban crawlers.
The packs are available at: https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=5/ (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=5/)I was more hoping someone had extracted the bot files from the teams so I could open them in the lab. But that's just me being lazy.
I recommend installing Starcore V3 then replacing the /AI teams with the /AI team in the Starcore v4 Alpha2 pack.
Note: It is an Alpha and not a full pack release.
Starcore
What's with the team 35 by the way? They don't have bindings.Team 35's binding weren't included in Starcore. I believe Ian included bindings in his AI pack compilation.
I went and manually got all the bots from their teams and gave them the correct names for easy importing.
https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=354 (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=354)
Obviously you will have to look up the teams yourself but this should help save some time moving files.
What's with the team 35 by the way? They don't have bindings.
EDIT: Here is my in progress review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J6t9tarSfUm15M30gSPqY5jCNZkGNwCRTJi2b-pzVtA/edit#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J6t9tarSfUm15M30gSPqY5jCNZkGNwCRTJi2b-pzVtA/edit#gid=0)
Open to all. Please don't ruin it :)
We're getting a nice list together of things to do on the google sheet.
Starcore, are you on the discord? It might help us answer some of your questions about new developments.
I don't think you need to sign off on each message :P
yugitom
Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
What Badnik said. SC AI will never be anything other than Stock Unrealistic as that is what it has always been.Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
what the **** are you talking about
Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
what the **** are you talking about
The DSL-S talk in the beggining of the topic threw me off rails..Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
what the **** are you talking about
No need to flame him for it. I'll show how you should answer TGM:
TGM, the Starcore AI packs are legendary Stock AI packs, which have never not been Stock. To change it to something like Ironforge IRL is not a good idea: Starcore will (though a DSL-S pack for DSL 2.2 AS-Rebalanced would be neat imo Starcore will be Stock, and there is definitely an audience for it) always be Unrealistic Stock. While your suggestion is not invalid or worthless, if you want a AI pack like that you'll have to make it yourself. Also, I think DSL 2.2 has more in the way of components for building IRL.
The DSL-S talk in the beggining of the topic threw me off rails..Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
what the **** are you talking about
No need to flame him for it. I'll show how you should answer TGM:
TGM, the Starcore AI packs are legendary Stock AI packs, which have never not been Stock. To change it to something like Ironforge IRL is not a good idea: Starcore will (though a DSL-S pack for DSL 2.2 AS-Rebalanced would be neat imo Starcore will be Stock, and there is definitely an audience for it) always be Unrealistic Stock. While your suggestion is not invalid or worthless, if you want a AI pack like that you'll have to make it yourself. Also, I think DSL 2.2 has more in the way of components for building IRL.
Should i atleast make IRL IF pack?
2 quick updatesI am hoping that Ad-Aware can keep its design built to trap pop-ups (hence the name) as a counterpoint to the rest of the team. That's why I like the angled wamming rack to stop opponents from going further up while the hammer arm continuously fires away. It seems like Diablo wanted it to be representative of Rampant Puppy Love.Adware PLUS is now a Hammer/Popup/Clampy thing instead of a poor hammer with and odd wamming rack setup. It's obviously not the best fighter but I dig it since it's something different. Chassis has empty space since I pretty much reused the old one and there isn't anything else I could see the weight going to.
Seeing these drafts brings to mind another question - for bots like popups and flippers, the chassis is pretty much all the bot has in terms of "looks". If there happen to be ones with a lot of empty space, is it better to interfere with the old design by optimizing the chassis, and if so, do we feel like we have the resources to reskin all the bots for which this is done?We've been having this discussion in discord. I think with the large bots with very complex skins we don't really want to touch them. If the entire team is outdated Starcore mentioned we could make them disappear quietly.
And some AW chassis.
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/50949screenshot_15.png)
22.5/15.0
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/38995screenshot_16.png)
25.5/17.0
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/5573screenshot_17.png)
16.0/10.7
Ya know what would be good? Ironforge IRL!
what the **** are you talking about
No need to flame him for it. I'll show how you should answer TGM:
TGM, the Starcore AI packs are legendary Stock AI packs, which have never not been Stock. To change it to something like Ironforge IRL is not a good idea: Starcore will (though a DSL-S pack for DSL 2.2 AS-Rebalanced would be neat imo Starcore will be Stock, and there is definitely an audience for it) always be Unrealistic Stock. While your suggestion is not invalid or worthless, if you want a AI pack like that you'll have to make it yourself. Also, I think DSL 2.2 has more in the way of components for building IRL.
I have been doing Hard Drive searches of bots that I worked on and that were sent to me for possible addition to the Starcore Pack in 2007/2008. I have brought them into 3 Botlab folders along with the bots that are currently in Starcore v4 Alpha2 for an Alpha3 release and review. This will allow testers and reviewers to be able to more conveniently review them in the Botlab.Public review.
I am currently Aing various updates that are definite improvements and will try to get that done over the next number of work nights. I will try to have an Alpha3 for people to test and review as early as this weekend (or sometime in 2017 ;) ).
Anyone interested in being a pack tester or should I just release it to the public for review and commentary? (Items may be broken or still in need of tweaking, that is the nature of Alpha releases).
Starcore
I have been doing Hard Drive searches of bots that I worked on and that were sent to me for possible addition to the Starcore Pack in 2007/2008. I have brought them into 3 Botlab folders along with the bots that are currently in Starcore v4 Alpha2 for an Alpha3 release and review. This will allow testers and reviewers to be able to more conveniently review them in the Botlab.
I am currently Aing various updates that are definite improvements and will try to get that done over the next number of work nights. I will try to have an Alpha3 for people to test and review as early as this weekend (or sometime in 2017 ;) ).
Anyone interested in being a pack tester or should I just release it to the public for review and commentary? (Items may be broken or still in need of tweaking, that is the nature of Alpha releases).
Starcore
Thanks for mentioning that.You'll have to include the 6-bot per team UI as it's not included in the standalone download, unless you're planning on a drop-in update. Most people should already have it though, as nearly all AI packs use it , so it shouldn't be too big of an issue for most people.
I will check the RA2 v1.4 install package and as it includes Mad's Smartzones, I will plan on not including the Mad's Smartzones in the Starcore Stock Pack and just mention in the Readme Instructions that Starcore v4 expects RA2 v1.4 with Madiaba's Smartzones as a prerequisite.
On that note, do I still need to add the 6-bot per team code in the package or is that Stock Standard as well these days?
Starcore
I believe Mr. AS and Geice will be doing a post with the details.Not sure about Geice, but here's a snippet from myself:
5) Updated Billy Goat Gruffiest to remove Plow, Roof Ram Plates and used weight to cover the bottom in Caster Armor. Still possible to put wedges on Snappers but that would require a full rebuild (Volunteers?)BGG is a Facespinner. so I'd be willing to take a stab at it
5) Updated Billy Goat Gruffiest to remove Plow, Roof Ram Plates and used weight to cover the bottom in Caster Armor. Still possible to put wedges on Snappers but that would require a full rebuild (Volunteers?)BGG is a Facespinner. so I'd be willing to take a stab at it
5) Updated Billy Goat Gruffiest to remove Plow, Roof Ram Plates and used weight to cover the bottom in Caster Armor. Still possible to put wedges on Snappers but that would require a full rebuild (Volunteers?)BGG is a Facespinner. so I'd be willing to take a stab at it
About the "classic" robots that are still viable to this day like Tempus Fugit or Neglected Waterbug, should we just leave them as is or do we update them too?
I went and manually got all the bots from their teams and gave them the correct names for easy importing.gave my 2cents
https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=354 (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=354)
Obviously you will have to look up the teams yourself but this should help save some time moving files.
What's with the team 35 by the way? They don't have bindings.
EDIT: Here is my in progress review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J6t9tarSfUm15M30gSPqY5jCNZkGNwCRTJi2b-pzVtA/edit#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J6t9tarSfUm15M30gSPqY5jCNZkGNwCRTJi2b-pzVtA/edit#gid=0)
Open to all. Please don't ruin it :)
Question:
Are we allowed to send you a user team?