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Robot Arena => Showcases => DSL TC Showcases => Topic started by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 06:43:55 AM

Title: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 06:43:55 AM: I thought I'd start up a showcase of my own. I've decided to scrap the way I've been building bots and start with a fresh approach.

I am planning to start a build later today, so before I do I would like to know any 'golden rules' of construction.

For example using skirting, how best to use it, motors, tyres etc.

Is the use of the cheat where two parts occupy the same place common? I don't intend to use it but is it something to look out for?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Vertigo on October 29, 2010, 06:53:47 AM: Its best if you show us a bot & then we can give constructive critism on it.

Quote from: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 06:43:55 AM
Is the use of the cheat where two parts occupy the same place common? I don't intend to use it but is it something to look out for?
This is called stacking, it is NOT allowed in DSL, but it is in stock
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Naryar on October 29, 2010, 07:11:14 AM: Quote from: Vertigo on October 29, 2010, 06:53:47 AM
Quote from: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 06:43:55 AM
Is the use of the cheat where two parts occupy the same place common? I don't intend to use it but is it something to look out for?
This is called stacking, it is NOT allowed in DSL, but it is in stock

It is not allowed in DSL for moving parts/motors/batteries - in fact, not allowed if it could not be implemented IRL.

Overlapping static components is fine however if the bot could be built and work IRL (don't overdo it though)
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Vertigo on October 29, 2010, 07:12:14 AM: Like on HNM :P
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: NFX on October 29, 2010, 07:15:45 AM: Overlapping spikes on the same extender is fine. Overlapping batteries, however, is not. Basically, don't have anything intersecting anything that moves, or anything that's involved with power. Motors, batteries and wheels cannot be intersected, everything else can be partially intersected, I think is the general rule.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 07:52:01 AM: I'm interested to know how you get such a perfect fit. I took Walrus apart a little on the Rookies team, and the components and the chassis fit together perfectly. Is this just trial and error?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Vertigo on October 29, 2010, 07:52:46 AM: That & practice, yes
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 29, 2010, 09:02:55 AM: To start with yes, a lot of trial and error is involved, make the bot, resize the chasis, chasis is still too big, make it smaller, rebuild the bot again, chasis JUST too small etc,etc.
Soon, you'll get better at building tight chasis's with little effort.

And don't worry about posting a bot to begin with, even if you don't think it's that good, I know my first bot sucked for one, it's improving that's the main thing here.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Naryar on October 29, 2010, 09:06:29 AM: Yeah, even if your first bot is bad (or not), we're not going to eat you as long as you don't do something stupid - and you don't strike me as someone that should do something stupid right now.

This is a showcase and a place to learn.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 03:45:35 PM: (http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k499/deadmetal2/M1.png?t=1288384756)

This is my first DSL bot using new ideas. It is called M1 and is a middleweight bot.

I am relatively pleased with it, I managed to get to an event final (a first on DSL) and won the League in its first season.

The concept of the bot is to get underneath enemy bots and use the two circular saws on most bots weakest point.

To keep the bot at middleweight, the armour is fairly thing, hence it cannot take much punishment. When it gets underneath however, it is very effective.

As you will probably notice fairly swiftly I'm not too bothered about aesthetics. :laughing

Any comments welcome.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: cephalopod on October 29, 2010, 03:48:40 PM: If I were you, downgrade those battlepacks to Ant Batteries. 1 ant can power 1 spin motor for the entire match. That should save you 30kg or so, which you could upgrade your weapons or drive/wheels with :D not bad as a first bot though!

EDIT: Oh, and get rid of the casters. That'll save you more weight to upgrade with. Maybe use metal hinge wedges instead of skirt hinges?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Badnik96 on October 29, 2010, 03:51:21 PM: Looks cool, maybe you could send that to FOTEPX for his tournament. And do what Craaig says.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 03:54:46 PM: I am currently searching for a counter to low skirting. Is it possible to get under the really low horizontal stuff?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: cephalopod on October 29, 2010, 03:56:32 PM: To get under wedges, I believe the best way to put it, would be to have a better wedge. I can't help much there, sorry, I hate the wedge wars and refuse to build wedges. :P

EDIT: But taking my advice and using Metal Hinges instead of Skirt Hinges will help. I know that metal hinges are better, and that's about it.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 03:59:38 PM: I only built a wedge as it seemed the best way to beat spinny do f all else bots :P I for one hate spinners (Absolute Chaos) and refuse to make them ::2mad. If every bot was like that robot fighting would be dead in a week. I'm not much of a wedge fan either, I prefer Mortis type robots myself.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: NFX on October 29, 2010, 04:00:51 PM: True. But then this is RA2, common sense and reason can go suck a lemon. :gawe:

There are two ways you can beat wedges, either build a better wedge - the best ones are normally Metal Hinge + DSL Bar/Halfsheet + Small Wedge component - or build a bot specifically designed to beat outwedged, like Craaig's series of VS's.

Another thing, if you use the larger of the two CB's, you save a kilogram of weight. And if the chassis is tall enough, you can put some halfsheets on the underside of your bot to protect it against any bots that might get underneath you.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 29, 2010, 04:01:25 PM: Yeah wedges are a bee-hatch.
Your probably best off using metal hinges (most consistent for wedges) and using forward weight distribution, although wether weight distribution makes a difference is still kinda debatable.
Quote from: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 03:59:38 PM
I only built a wedge as it seemed the best way to beat spinny do f all else bots :P I for one hate spinners (Absolute Chaos) and refuse to make them ::2mad. If every bot was like that robot fighting would be dead in a week.
You should try making some popups my friend, they are the kings here.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: cephalopod on October 29, 2010, 04:03:14 PM: Well, I dislike those unrealistic HS. Or unrealistic bots altogether. I'm a Vertical Spinner person (check mah DSL Showcase ;) - as NFX said, my designs are meant to beat wedges. In fact, wedges are MEANT to go under them ;p)

But as I mentioned in the edit you may not have seen, try using metal hinges (the ones that look like they're from a door) instead of the skirt hinges (the silver and black things you're using) to get a better wedge.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 04:09:56 PM: Thanks for all the input, keep it comming its all good stuff!

Next up for me I think is a Dead Metal type bot. I don't think I can make it look pretty, but I am obsessed with the idea of having a dirty great circular saw array come out of the body.

Anyone know whats the best way of building a pair of clamping arms? Somethign that will come out from the side and grasp around to the front.

It would probably be a useless bot in terms of winning battles but I wanna make it anyway!
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: cephalopod on October 29, 2010, 04:16:00 PM: You may wish to see this, made just today and put in the Replica thread

https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=797.msg229958#msg229958 (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=797.msg229958#msg229958)

But I think you'd need burst motors for the clamping arms, and something to put on them. maybe a dsl bar with something on the end? I don't know. Just remember burst motors don't stick to the 1 ant rule for power, and need a fair few more.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 04:18:31 PM: You should have a go at making a scorpion tail that pivots forward from the back with two circular saws on the end. Guaranteed headache.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 04:31:04 PM: Has anyone ever tried making a pressure weapon such as Razors beak? Does the game recognise crushing/pressurised damage?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 29, 2010, 04:34:00 PM: Well, you can use a burst motor starting at the down position like razer in dsl.
When it comes to a servo style crusher though, I started a thread asking about that kinda thing, and people seemed to say that it wasn't really possible, but I think jobloe was working on something like it, don't know what he managed to do with it though...
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: NFX on October 29, 2010, 04:35:25 PM: I don't think so. The best way to get a Razer-esque weapone style would, in my view, be to build a clamping sawbot. There was one built in last month's Bot Of The Month tournament called Omnivore, it's in SKBT's showcase as well. And I think the clamping arm design would probably best be described as a side hammer. They can be effective, but on the whole they're a tricky design to build well.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 04:37:19 PM: Another thing is I think a razor reconstruction bot would get its ass kicked in RA2 - the AI would just run away - the fiend.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 29, 2010, 04:40:19 PM: Quote from: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 04:37:19 PM
Another thing is I think a razor reconstruction bot would get its ass kicked in RA2 - the AI would just run away - the fiend.
Errr, you should go in exhibition mode, there are replicas of real life bots in there to fight against.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 29, 2010, 04:52:38 PM: Oh I didn't realise how many RL bots were i nthere, I only had a punt around there, how silly do I look. :laughing

I couldn't resist :|

(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k499/deadmetal2/1.png?t=1288389108)
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: SKBT on October 29, 2010, 06:29:55 PM: (https://gametechmods.com/TournamentFiles/botm/oct10/005.png)

Omnivore is the coolest clamp I have made. My most effective is Death From Above. (it's on the exchange)

My best advice is use linear accuators. Servos are a pain in the butt to work with because you need counterweights to lift anything heavy. You also want good wedges and to make a \_/ shape with plows.

Also welcome to GTM
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 06:27:40 PM: I've created a new bot and I'd like to record its first battle. Can anyone recommend the best free screen recording program? I've noticed the DSL videos on Youtube are very good quality.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 30, 2010, 06:29:36 PM: Quote from: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 06:27:40 PM
I've created a new bot and I'd like to record its first battle. Can anyone recommend the best free screen recording program? I've noticed the DSL videos on Youtube are very good quality.
FRAPS is the one I believe everybody uses.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 06:34:00 PM: Thanks for that, I'll try it out. I promise to upload the new bots first fight win or lose :P
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: NFX on October 30, 2010, 07:20:23 PM: Quote from: Scorpion on October 30, 2010, 06:29:36 PM
Quote from: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 06:27:40 PM
I've created a new bot and I'd like to record its first battle. Can anyone recommend the best free screen recording program? I've noticed the DSL videos on Youtube are very good quality.
FRAPS is the one I believe everybody uses.
Yeah, but you only get a limited trial version for free. The free software I use is WeGame, but I'm not sure if WMM opens the files up at all, so I've got another free piece of software called VirtualDub, basically a video editing and splicing package, where you can save it in multiple formats.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 08:42:16 PM: (http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k499/deadmetal2/M1AVortexPoster.png?t=1288488198)

This is my second DSL bot: M1 Vortex.

Heavyweight class.

The weapon system is pretty self explanatory.

This bot is invertible unlike my last bot, and I wired the controls so that its easy to control either way up.

I had hammer/axe bots in mind while I was making it so the titanium top plate was added.

---

(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k499/deadmetal2/M1Plan.png?t=1288488776)

This was the original plan.

I made a mistake by choosing motors that were geared too high to be drive motors - lesson learned!

Changing the motors meant I needed less battery space, so I was able to add the side arms, worked out better in the end.

This is the first battle. An exhibition vs Snow Job. Have a watch, its a bit good.

http://s1112.photobucket.com/albums/k499/deadmetal2/?action=view&current=ExhibitionMatch1vSnowJob.mp4 (http://s1112.photobucket.com/albums/k499/deadmetal2/?action=view&current=ExhibitionMatch1vSnowJob.mp4)

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: S.T.C. on October 30, 2010, 09:05:15 PM: Smaller chassis
Are the sawblades really that effective?
Overpowered
Multiextenders FTW
Better wheels
Is it realistic? I think the sawblades are going through the motor.
Back armor not needed
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 09:13:14 PM: The chassis is a small as I dared, I wanted some give to protect the insides from hits.
Look at the vid
Power is everything
They do indeed
The wheels are the best ones to keep the bot tipped forward
The blades go under the motor component
Since I only have two drive motors and they are quite exposed i felt added protection was a good idea
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 09:20:33 PM: I'm still not happy with skirting, Does it only really work when its totally horizontal? Just can't seem to get under the other bots with it. I guess that's the point of them though.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Somebody on October 30, 2010, 09:31:01 PM: Overpowering is wasting weight, it has no benefits. Also, you don't need to protect the innards from hits. Anything attached to the baseplate (motors, batteries, etc.) is indestructible.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 09:41:57 PM: I was thinking about keeping the repair times down - keep a bit of distance between the hull and the internal components and maybe make it further in events.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: COOLRUNNER87 on October 30, 2010, 09:44:03 PM: Some other observations:

As mentioned earlier, you don't really need to have the Base Extender --> T Connector --> Perm 132 combination. The perms can be put directly in the robot just like the way you have them without using the extender work. It'll save you weight at the very least.
Also, you should look into more powerful weapons. 4 Sawblades will fall off easily if you face some of the more powerful opponents in DSL 2.1 (the original Grog, The Resurrection for example).
Your robot is also extremely overpowered for what it is. All you need for each motor is about 1 Ant battery (for a bare minimum of 4 in the robot).

There are other things that can be mentioned, but I'll leave that to someone who has a better knowledge of RA2 than I do.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: SKBT on October 30, 2010, 09:47:59 PM: Don't use castors unless you are building in stock. What we meant by a wedge was use a metal hindge wedge not a skirt hindge wedge. There is a difference in performance the metal hinge wedge gets under the skirt hinge 9/10 times. Sawblades typically are better if placed vertical instead of horizontal. You also only need one ant battery per spin motor. When I say this I mean any motor that spins from piglets to dual perms.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 10:08:10 PM: Thanks for the input. I had the idea of horizontal saw blades so that the bot would have a bigger surface area do aim with.

I don't understand how an ant pack which provides 10 or so amps can provide power for a motor that needs 45 amps to be at full power.

Also, what are the reasons for not using casters in DSL?

All good advice people, thanks.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Clickbeetle on October 30, 2010, 10:19:36 PM: Quote from: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 10:08:10 PM
I don't understand how an ant pack which provides 10 or so amps can provide power for a motor that needs 45 amps to be at full power.

https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php/topic,2654.0.html (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php/topic,2654.0.html)

Power consumption in RA2 is broken and makes no sense, basically.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 10:21:01 PM: Like most of the rest of the game is broken then basically, :laughing this is a hard game to like at times.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Clickbeetle on October 30, 2010, 10:26:26 PM: Yet you have no choice but to like it, because it's the only game of its kind. :P
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Somebody on October 30, 2010, 10:27:45 PM: Try not to build for the in-game tournaments. It kills efficiency a bit for the bots, and many of us here don't compete in those anymore, whether it be because they are freak glitchy and crash my game a lot (not fighting, just the tournaments), and because many of us build to just fight a lot in exhibition, or in AI Tournaments.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 30, 2010, 10:31:48 PM: If something wants 45 amps to be at full strength then it shouldnt run at full strength on 10 amps. Simple. This game uses mcphysics.

That's where you're wrong because I think I've tipped over the edge of not liking it tonight, its done for me now I think. DSL is a great patch, but there is jsut too many f*** ups in the core game that get on my nerves.

Plus winning tournaments is what a game like this is all about. Building something to defeat something else.

I would have been happy to play this game just to build bots, but they managed to cock that side of the game up as well.

I wonder what the developers were smoking when they were putting this game together at times. Probably just an after thought by Infrogrames to make a quick buck off of the success of Robot Wars back then. Shame really, could have been a classic! More Ralph than Michael me thinks.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Somebody on October 30, 2010, 10:38:25 PM: If you look deeper into the game, you can really see that it was unfinished. So many glitches. Unfinished components. Unused sound and UI. Not just in DSL but in Stock the most. Its all in the coding, which we can't edit.

And we build nowadays more to advance building, which the aim of entering tournaments in the tournaments section here on GTM. They are much more prestigious, and carry prizes and notoriety (check my sig for my tourney record). In those tournaments, you don't have to sacrifice your bot to think about fixing it. Its all about who has the best robot, and luck to a certain extent. To build the best robots, you need to separate yourself from real life building. You must tell yourself that it isn't Robot Wars, or isn't Battlebots, and that you need to treat it like its own separate thing. RA2 is its own world, where different rules apply. In that world, things can ask for certain power and run on 10 amps. Getting better at building robots is where its at for most of us. For others its innovating. Find your niche and go with it.

Mine by the way, is SnS (Sit n Spin). Bots that Sit and spin and let other bots run into them for damage.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 31, 2010, 04:11:04 AM: The game was made about 8/9 years ago.
The only other game that's like it is robot wars extreme destruction which is as fun as stabbing yourself in the eye with a pencil.
The games glitches and little oddities don't really ruin the game IMO, it just gives it more character perhaps.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Naryar on October 31, 2010, 04:18:52 AM: It's above average for a first fully showcased DSL bot.

Anyways -

-You need 1-2 ants per spin motor, nothing more
-That weapon setup is only efficient against bad or average bots. Overall, horizontal sawbots are bad.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: G.K. on October 31, 2010, 05:01:18 AM: Quote from: Naryar on October 31, 2010, 04:18:52 AM
-You need 1-2 amps per spin motor, nothing more

You mean Ants?

Edit by naryar : Yes of course I do. Stupid typo and stupid low Wisdom score. Thanks for correcting
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: NFX on October 31, 2010, 06:15:39 AM: Quote from: Somebody on October 30, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
Overpowering is wasting weight, it has no benefits.

I'm inclined to disagree here, I always try to make a point of overpowering my bots by at least one or two ants, especially with rammers, just to keep them going at full power for the whole three minutes. I don't really want to be unable to throw the opponent around in the last few seconds and still be behind on points.

As for the bot, it's certainly an interesting concept. The general guideline is one ant per spin motor, but sometimes you can go over that without being stupid. But lose the Long battery in there, it really does suck.

I think the extender work could be improved a little bit too. You could replace the Baseplate Anchors with Multi Extenders, they're 1kg lighter than Baseplate Anchors, and smaller, as well as being indestructible mounted on the baseplate.

Chassis could probably be made a bit smaller, and you might want to replace the casters on the underside with Titanium Halfsheets, using the "secret" attachment point in the middle of it. It offers a good degree of defense, but it's not totally invincible.

On the whole, I think it's quite a good job for a second DSL bot, but there are still ways for you to improve it. =]
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 31, 2010, 07:34:13 AM: Well that has helped me to figure out why the bots in DSL are so powerful: They have full power engines but can run on batteries that don't give the bot a realistic weight payoff. It's like being able to run a T2 tank on a lawnmower engine. Its cheating. I think it should be a rule if the actual game can't be changed, then people should have to have the battery power that their engines say they need. So if your power consumption adds up to 120 amps, you need to have 120 amps worth of batteries. Lets have a slight sense of reality?
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Badnik96 on October 31, 2010, 07:40:42 AM: Agree with everyone here, make the saws vertical.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: DeadMetal on October 31, 2010, 07:53:43 AM: This game has actually spent more time crashing than working today, that combined with the fact that the best patch for the game has been made with the same sence of reality that Michael Jackson had, I think I'll give this game a miss. Was fun, annoying - but fun - when it wasn't crashing - which wasn't very often.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Badnik96 on October 31, 2010, 07:55:17 AM: If that means you're leaving then... bye.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: NFX on October 31, 2010, 08:00:20 AM: Quote from: DeadMetal on October 31, 2010, 07:34:13 AM
Well that has helped me to figure out why the bots in DSL are so powerful: They have full power engines but can run on batteries that don't give the bot a realistic weight payoff. It's like being able to run a T2 tank on a lawnmower engine. Its cheating. I think it should be a rule if the actual game can't be changed, then people should have to have the battery power that their engines say they need. So if your power consumption adds up to 120 amps, you need to have 120 amps worth of batteries. Lets have a slight sense of reality?

That's only for spin motors, though. If you have a burst motor, the amount of batteries you need increases quite a lot. A Beta Geared Motor, for instance, needs 21 ant batteries to be effective. The so-called "unrealistic power consumption" only applies to spin motors.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Naryar on October 31, 2010, 08:08:43 AM: And despite being flawed (all games are) that really is a great game if you bypass the "flawed" thing.

Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions after only a few days playing DSL.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Somebody on October 31, 2010, 08:51:50 AM: DSL didn't change much by the way of coding. DSL gave new components, AI, UI, and the already-created six bots per team.

Lets say this slowly now... SEVEN. YEAR. OLD. RUSHED. GAME.
There will be glitches, and it is nearly impossible to model all of the real life variables that come with robot combat. Its the best robot combat game ever made though, and its the best you are going to get.
Title: Re: Deadmetal showcase
Post by: Scorpion on October 31, 2010, 10:56:53 AM: Quote from: Somebody on October 31, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
DSL didn't change much by the way of coding. DSL gave new components, AI, UI, and the already-created six bots per team.

Lets say this slowly now... SEVEN. YEAR. OLD. RUSHED. GAME.
There will be glitches, and it is nearly impossible to model all of the real life variables that come with robot combat. Its the best robot combat game ever made though, and its the best you are going to get.
I wouldn't say rushed, it's amazing what they managed to put together with the technology available at the time IMO.
And yeah as I said before, it's main competitor was robot wars extreme destruction which is unmeasurably worse.