gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Urjak on November 06, 2009, 07:52:05 PM
-
I have heard many people on this forum are calling DSL flails cheap.
Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, I am asking why people think this?
Any opinions would be appreciated.
-
I think it's 'cheap' because the axel part comes out of its socket making it unrealistic.
-
I think flails does give a distinct advantage to SnS, as it makes it much harder to stop and pin on the wall. They also tend to crash the game and takes longer to load if you have too many of them, especially those with flails on top of flail. I have one myself and I always thought of it as something cheap. But then again I always find SnS and Crawlers cheap to begin with.
-
The only thing I find cheap in flails is their damage potential. They merely scrape along the opponent's components. I kinda feels like a hit from Iron Spaghetti is more painful than a hit from Haymaker. Their durability isn't cheap, but they're imbalanced due to having high damage while being durable at the same time.
-
I just make a big deal about it for the sake of doing it. :P
-
This is news to me. How does one go about making a "cheap" flail? None of the ones I've made were anything to write home about. 'Twould help in the replica building, I've always wanted to do Lizzard. Thanks in advance
-
takes longer to load if you have too many of them
clash cubes 2 ? Head Chef and Exponential Decay both had a flail count in the 40-50 range :P
-
clash cubes 2 ? Head Chef and Exponential Decay both had a flail count in the 40-50 range :P
Well, I know my flail on flail on flail takes noticeably longer the load than any other bot. It might simply has to do with the exponential amount of calculation it takes when u connect flails on top of flails, and not so much one flail followed by a weapon.
-
try loading 2 SHW robots in the RW arena with one have 50 Flails haha sloooow
-
I don't really think they are that cheap.
First, I recently seem to be noticing a rock-paper-scissors effect occurring between different types of weapons:
Static, high-DP weapons (like razors) beat high-DP weapons on flails, this picture (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/66527spamrazor.PNG) being an example (although I don't find it very convincing because I think Genocide is a SHW)
High-DP weapons on flails beat static, high-concussion weapons (like sledgehammers), as shown in this picture (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/58960BaneIII_3.JPG)
and static, high-concussion weapons, in return, beat static, high-DP weapons.
So, to me, there doesn't seem to be that much of a significant imbalance as long as the type of bot utilizing those types of weapons is well-built, but that's just my crazy theory that I don't really know how to explain :P.
Second, axle mounts are weak, so certain designs, like my HW, Broadsword, which I built in response to Steel Meatball, and, of course, Blade Barrier, can rip them off easily. Remember that not one bot type can beat all other bot types, in other words:
Now, repeat after me:
"THERE IS NO PERFECT ROBOT DESIGN."
Say it again.
Third, as for the axle glitching out, if you think about it, the axle wouldn't fly out IRL if it were adequately secured to the socket. The reason it is not that way in the game is because of RA2's broken physics (obviously).
And finally, axle mounts are capable of causing massive havok explosions because of the moving axle, so bots with flails have a distinct disadvantage, especially in arenas with low walls, like the BBEANS arena.
I can agree on the long loading time for bots with flailed weapons. It drives me crazy, same with trying to load 36-HS, but that's stock.
-
dont forgot flails are really havok prone, so why it might amp up your weaponry it increases your risk of loss, look at Scrap Daddy loosing in CC2 against Reier via double havok
-
Oh yeah, how did I forget about that? I think I'll add that to my post, if you don't mind.
-
dont forgot flails are really havok prone, so why it might amp up your weaponry it increases your risk of loss, look at Scrap Daddy loosing in CC2 against Reier via double havok
And look at Scrap Daddy winning in RAW. :P
-
Flails are teh ghey because not only Gearhead can't beat Bane II EVEN if GH deals more than 6000 damage to the razors (would be enough for destroying all of them and this is not a fracture issue), Bane often doesn't even loses ONE SINGLE razor...
...But because of havoks. Even minor ones that ruin one pinning attempt and slightly change the match, or major ones that CLEARLY change the match.
And yes, SM clearly won against Mako 4 because of havoks.
-
FLAILS DON'T WORK IN REAL LIFE!
Mauler ? :-D
-
FLAILS DON'T WORK IN REAL LIFE UNLESS THEY ARE POORLY PUT ON YOUR BOT, THEN COME OFF AND MAKE YOU FAMOUS, WHILE NOT DOING ANY DAMAGE OR BEING COMBAT EFFECTIVE!
happy?
-
no :biggrin: Mauler was effective... Mauler 51-50 had the flails that broke
-
Exept Normal razors lose to razors on flails.
-
I don't really care about flails. They have their advantages and disadvantages. They might do a lot of damage, but as some posters already stated, they're havok prone and weak against certain bot types.
I believe there was a heavyweight flail vertical spinner that fought in BattleBots, I think it was called Greenspan.
-
GREEENSPAN!!
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/32612Greenspan.PNG)
Anyway, I owe every win I ever had in a DSL tournament to flails. I love them. :D
-
funny thing remember SSG winning over scrap daddy (I think it was) via points ? in CC2
-
Hey SD, the real one looks like it has 1 disk and the rep has 2...
-
Well, if you look closely you can see the axle is between the discs. Its just a lot farther apart on the replica because axles are huge in dsl.
I never posted this replica because of these problems :P
-
Flails are teh ghey because not only Gearhead can't beat Bane II EVEN if GH deals more than 6000 damage to the razors (would be enough for destroying all of them and this is not a fracture issue), Bane often doesn't even loses ONE SINGLE razor...
This is why I don't mind flails. In the LW division, Bras-Ouvert style bots would dominate if not for flails. They actually bring some balance that static weaponed bots can't.
-
their good at grinding and cant be stopped like static spinning weps can but the are crap on vertical spinners
-
They CAN be stopped... you just must pin hard enough and with the right shape.
-
let's face it, when a new bot is made, a bot is quickly made to kill that one, then it's refined to beat others. That's just how bot building evolution works.
-
^^^^ the rock, paper, scissors effect :mrgreen:
look how many people built robots to beat Seism and R4 after BBEANS 5
-
Just my personal view, I think DSL Flails are cheap due to the Havok Potential when you knock them off, especially with Flail Sheck Spinners. Which is why I always find Grog so hard to beat, I knock an axle mount off and am promptly thrown halfway across the arena.
-
^^My point exactly^^
And Grog is still a lesser flail shell spinner... that's not like it massively spammed flails like some NAR AI bots.
-
That is the only reason in my mind that they are cheap. If we complain about things that would not work IRL, we need to complain about popups, jugglers, and the habit of using multiple weapons to do extra damage, even though that would not really work in real life.
-
I wouldn't mind complaining about popups/jugglers :P
In my opinion, Realistic should be REALISTIC, not might-be-a-bit realistic-kind-of.
And flails suck in real life. Yet they score well here. That's why I think they're cheap.
-
That is the only reason in my mind that they are cheap. If we complain about things that would not work IRL, we need to complain about popups, jugglers, and the habit of using multiple weapons to do extra damage, even though that would not really work in real life.
Agree. Damage enhancement was never part of the "realistic rules". If it is then all the popups/jugglers and weapon stacking has to go. Along with all indestructible armors like half sheet/caster/multi extender/NPC sticking out/skirt hinge.
If realism include behaving realistically, non static wedges need to be banned too. Wedges on a burst motor are not anything close to being as good in real life. They don't make perfect contact with the ground and slide under everything the way they do here. Real life wedge bots looks like this
(http://www.markpepper.co.uk/_Media/robot-wars-razer_sidebar.jpeg)
Do people just get so used to wedges being brokenly powerful in this game that they stop seeing it as unrealistic? If we want to complain about realism non static wedges need to be banned too.
-
RA2 is an "arcade" style game not a sim
HP, DP, etc.. its all arcade style so we just have to enjoy if for what it is
-
^^My point exactly^^
And Grog is still a lesser flail shell spinner... that's not like it massively spammed flails like some NAR AI bots.
Should we start ranting about skirt hinge armor now?
-
Flails are ghey but, invincible amour is not?
-
im working on the Skirt Hinge to remove the cheaty collision while not making it havoky... in time it will come
people have already started banning such for tournaments.
-
What if you change the DISABLE_COLLISIONS in the GMF to 1?
-
well yes that would work fine... but then stuff could be stacked in it (batts in the white part of it or multiple skirt hinges, etc)
-
DISABLE_COLLISIONS ? Do i see a new interesting way to build ?
-
only components (weapons, Armour, etc) will do nothing :P
though I have such a mod on my computer I made some time ago just for epic stacking fun.
-
I am talking of player-induced ZeroG right here.
-
well yes that would work fine... but then stuff could be stacked in it (batts in the white part of it or multiple skirt hinges, etc)
You know you can do that anyway. Just put a bunch of storm piston on the skirt hinge and it will fly away. Then just go to paint chassis and back and u can stack the second skirt hinge on top. While the white part still collides a little but it's fairly easy to stack.
To bring the skirt hinges back just hit pause, enter test, and back.
-
Personally i snapper load using copals...
-
overlapping isnt realistic but if you must do it yourself its different to a part allowing you to do it
same as the debate we have now
skirt hinge armor isnt realistic but as the part lets you do it, it seems legal
-
Lol stuff happens.
But yeah my point is, since it's so easy to stack skirt hinges anyway, just use DISABLE_COLLISIONS for skirt hinge and we won't have skirt hinge armor anymore.
It might even fix some of the AGOD problems.
As for realism, skirt hinges are consider a "non battery, no control board, static component". So it shouldn't violate stacking rule. We got razors going through them all the time, cutting them into multiple sections or even taking it's entire width.
Of course, a better solution is if we can make the white part collide but not the black/invisible part.
Edit: NM I just tried it doesn't work.
-
I don't know if it depends on what is stacked and how, 'cause some bots have three Firestorm flippers on a skirt hinge, and they overlap in places. And razors overlap on popups and true popups as well.
-
Static overlapping and moving overlapping are 2 different things.
-
How is moving overlapping considered realistic, though? I still don't get what's realistic and what isn't.
-
How is moving overlapping considered realistic, though? I still don't get what's realistic and what isn't.
A bot is realistic if it can be built IRL, & therefore I don't see how moving pverlapping is realistic either.
You don't see a sledge hammer passing through a solid sheet of steel in real life do you?
-
the theory is a slot could be cut in it IRL (still some push this to the limits and beyond)
-
How is moving overlapping considered realistic, though? I still don't get what's realistic and what isn't.
A bot is realistic if it can be built IRL, & therefore I don't see how moving pverlapping is realistic either.
You don't see a sledge hammer passing through a solid sheet of steel in real life do you?
Correct, but it's a compromise in the light that all of us aren't exactly 3DS Max legends. We can't just make robot bodies (like a DSL replica's) with the slots all set out and ready.
If we were to -really- think about it, every robot in this game is unrealistic - because no actual slots and holes are made for axles, wheels, pistons and whatever else to actually move in.
-
And everyone is too lazy to use the little decals to at least make it LOOK like there is a hole.
-
And everyone is too lazy to use the little decals to at least make it LOOK like there is a hole.
I do on the wheels!!
Not for the popup thingies though, Coz then the whole chassis is a hole xP
-
Then just paint the chassis black. So its all one hole. SO IT DOESN'T EXIST :O
-
I still dont see how DSL popups should be counted as realistic.
-
I still dont see how DSL popups should be counted as realistic.
TREEZON LOLOLOL FAG LIEKS CRAWLERZ BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
-
one of the reasons for Backlash, Its restrictive so people make realistic robots
-
one of the reasons for Backlash, Its restrictive so people make realistic robots
Wait wait wait... That means... NO MORE POPUPS!?!? (Since theyre like Half unrealistic :P)
I wanted to see more bots like real life with just 1 disk or something... But yeah, Backslash is more realistic, But the bots dont look like RL bots :P
-
With realism comes restriction, it seems.
I still don't get everything about it. My view was that if it doesn't move through batteries, motors, or CB's, doesn't pass through anything that moves, or doesn't pass through any kind of extender/connector completely, then you're alright.
-
But the bots dont look like RL bots :P
again with the beta 1 generalizing :P
-
But the bots dont look like RL bots :P
again with the beta 1 generalizing :P
YUSH! :gawe:
I like jumping to conclusions :3
-
YUSH! :gawe:
Fixed :P
-
But most stuff that we build doesn't look like RL bots. I suppose they could theoretically be built, but the technological challenge would be immense.
-
some stuff does
despite the overlapping some pop ups in stock look kinda real
-
I guess so. I was thinking more of Mako, and S=FTW, bots like that.
-
I guess so. I was thinking more of Mako, and S=FTW, bots like that.
LOLWUT
-
S=FTW probably couldn't be feasibly built in RL, is wut.
-
But compared to most, Mako would be quite easy to build in real life.
-
But compared to most, Mako would be quite easy to build in real life.
DO IT.
-
But compared to most, Mako would be quite easy to build in real life.
DO IT.
I have not the skills nor resources for such an endeavor, though I admit it wold be pretty cool.