Stock "Sportsman Class"

[Clickbeetle]

So I was thinking about BBEANS7

DSL3 Beta 2 takes priority, so not until that is done.  I'll probably announce BBEANS7 soon after it is released, though.

and I decided I want to go back to stock MW, since it's been 8 years or something since BBEANS1.  However, it won't be JUST stock MW.  There will be a "Standard" division, which will be your standard tourney with normal building rules.  And then there will be a special "Sportsman" division.

What is the sportsman class?  Think kind of like the stock equivalent of DSL IRL.

DSL is popular (just compare activity in the stock showcase with the DSL showcase) in part because it has two main building styles, standard and IRL.  (There are other reasons too, but I think IRL building is a big part.)  Stock has only one building style, which is extremely focused on mastering glitch abuse and stacking, and is largely inaccessible to new players.  Even experienced players can find it tedious Snapper-loading huge complicated weapon systems or trying to stack multiple baseplate anchors in a Nifty.  I think stock needs another option.  However, IRL doesn't work as well in stock.  It's been attempted and never took off.  Enter my idea for the sportsman class.

Proposed rules for stock sportsman class:  (I want to keep these short and simple, so there are only three.)

1.  Banned Components
Cheatbot2 parts, the Snapper II, and 140cm extenders are not allowed.

2.  Stacking Rule
Only baseplate anchors, small battery packs, and control boards may be stacked.  No stacking weapons (=overlapping collision mesh).  No exostacking.  It is still allowed to "stack" things using motors.

3.  Chassis Armor
Double-strength aluminum armor is not allowed.  (Yup, you'll have to actually open the Armor tab.)

Feedback is welcome on this idea.  The main goal of the sportsman class is not to make the game more accessible to new players, although that is a nice side effect.  The goal is to make an alternate, less glitch-focused, less tedious, less brutally competitive building style that encourages different designs, similar to what IRL does for DSL and the real life 30lb sportsman class does for real life robot combat, and perhaps boost interest in stock building.

[Mr. AS]

So it's basically the equivalent of "substandard" DSL, being in the middle of IRL and DSL-S? Example being many of Naryar's past "IRL" bots.

Also, small wedges aren't even good on most flippers, apart from that one LW flipper I made with a small wedge. Not like anyone builds flippers in stock anyway.

Only baseplate anchors, small battery packs, and control boards may be stacked.  No stacking weapons (=overlapping collision mesh).  No exostacking.

So no battery stacking either? Not even pinks, which are one of the easiest things to stack in the game?

[S.T.C.]

This seems good, I'm definitely not a stock builder but this seems like a good compromise for people who are mostly used to DSL.

[090901]

Only baseplate anchors, small battery packs, and control boards may be stacked.  No stacking weapons (=overlapping collision mesh).  No exostacking.

So no battery stacking either? Not even pinks, which are one of the easiest things to stack in the game?

Small battery packs = pinks

[helloface]

IMO Small wedges should be banned, AI parts allowed, and I could care less about caster armour. Maybe a rule about razors and irons too?

[090901]

I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:

397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.

IMO Small wedges should be banned

Banning small wedges would just turn this into even more of a HS fest as popups would then need to use E-wedges (even if they are allowed)

Maybe a rule about razors and irons too?

What would be cool is to have another tourney that bans the big 3/4 of weapons in stock (Razors, Irons, Maces, and Bearclaws).  However I bet everybody would just use axes and spikes stripes then so it really wouldn't change much.

[helloface]

IMO Small wedges should be banned

Banning small wedges would just turn this into even more of a HS fest as popups would then need to use E-wedges (even if they are allowed)

That is a valid point. I'm changing my mind, small wedges should be legal.

Something else that could be interesting is banning of tribars. I may be taking it too far but it could limit the building of generic HSs and force people to use uncommon components and make more creative, unique, or rare bot types.

[Lemonism]

This sounds really cool, I haven't been building stock much for almost exactly the reasons you described, and this sounds like a great idea to get back into building stock again.

[Gazea2]

Something else that could be interesting is banning of tribars. I may be taking it too far but it could limit the building of generic HSs and force people to use uncommon components and make more creative, unique, or rare bot types.

This.
I like this.

I think the idea as a whole is good. Personally, I feel that caster armour is pretty heavy anyway and I reckon it won't be used much. It might also give bots a chance against any HS spam that there is.

[Naryar]

i'm not sure why we can stack things using bursts/servos but yet eFFeing and all the loading techniques are banned...

Small wedges should be allowed else it nerfs every single wedge bot in favor of HS's, as said.

AI parts should definitely be allowed. (Why would you ban them ? Only good AI part is the bear claw and even then it's mostly as good as razors)

I think caster armor should be allowed, but you should limit it to increase tactical choices.
-either a numerical limit on the caster components per weightclass (2 LW, 4 MW, 8 HW or something like that)
-or just allow caster armor but only as a limited use, as if protecting 2 corners of your bot with caster armor is allowed but not protecting entire faces with caster armor.

otherwise i agree with everything else.

[Sage]

Certainly interesting. So you're saying you would run two tournaments simultaneously?

As far as the rules for Sportsman mode goes, it sounds like you want to make it like the day stock came out... no glitches, no extra components, no DSA. Build a bot as if it was 11 years ago.

I like it. But I agree with 0190910191... HS will dominate. But is that any different than normal? Probably not.


As far as the normal part of the tournament goes, as long as you're gonna ban hax mode (i assume you are), you should ban the pause button too.

[Mystic2000]

I personally think that this does nerf HS a bit, as for popups, i'm pretty sure that a damaging enough one can easily KO an HS, espcecially without DSA, anyway i'm gonna experiment with that a little, oh and you says glitches are banned, does that includes chained motors ?

[Clickbeetle]

I removed the rule banning glitch use, because I realized that banning stacking effectively bans glitch use by definition (the only reason anyone uses glitches is to stack things).  No reason to have redundant rules.

Chaining motors will still be allowed.  Not as sure about the Rupt glitch, but I'm leaning toward allowing it because it's really not that good.

Certainly interesting. So you're saying you would run two tournaments simultaneously?

Yes.  Sportsman class is still an experiment, so I don't want to make it the only option.

As far as the rules for Sportsman mode goes, it sounds like you want to make it like the day stock came out... no glitches, no extra components, no DSA. Build a bot as if it was 11 years ago.

The methods used will be like the day RA2 came out, however I expect the actual bot designs will be more modern.  (See 090901's HS.)

I like it. But I agree with 0190910191... HS will dominate. But is that any different than normal? Probably not.

Exactly... standard stock is already a popup and HS fest; sportsman rules can hardly make it more of one.  I would say that of all bot types, HS rely on stacking the most, so if anything these rules would make HS slightly less dominant.

i'm not sure why we can stack things using bursts/servos but yet eFFeing and all the loading techniques are banned...

Burst/servo stacking is too hard to define and regulate.  For example, EMERGENCY's wedges.  Are they stacked in the ram plates?  If so, is "minor" stacking like that allowed?  And if not, then this comes close to making a "realistic rule" for stock, which is not the point.

Unlike eFFeing, burst/servo stacking has been used since RA2 first came out.  Also, stacking with bursts and servos comes at a much higher weight cost than using glitches.

I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(Image removed from quote.)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.

This bot is actually kind of the goal of sportsman class.  I'm not trying to nerf particular dominant bot types, only make stock easier to build in.

However, those irons look overlapping to me, so that setup wouldn't be allowed.  You would have to move the side irons to the inner attach point, or use a T/Y connector.

Maybe a rule about razors and irons too?

What would be cool is to have another tourney that bans the big 3/4 of weapons in stock (Razors, Irons, Maces, and Bearclaws).  However I bet everybody would just use axes and spikes stripes then so it really wouldn't change much.

I thought about adding this rule, but decided not to for this reason.


So the general consensus I'm getting so far...

- Allow AI parts

- Allow small wedges

- Limit casters in some way (have to decide how)

[Mr. AS]

But yeah, I think you should:
-Allow all AI parts, but ban bearclaws, because they're arguably more OP than razors/irons/maces.
-I could go either way on wedges, but don't make flippers exempt from the rule. You're more likely to see bracket wedge flippers or fork arm when you first start RA2 flippers because sentinel and scout use them.
-Don't allow caster armor, otherwise it will definitely be an HS fest.

Banning small wedges would just turn this into even more of a HS fest as popups would then need to use E-wedges (even if they are allowed)

Honestly, I think Ewedge > small wedge when fighting HS, because they're far wider and thus won't get smacked away as easily.

[Resetti's Replicas]

I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(Image removed from quote.)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.

  Perhaps a modified IRL ruleset?  It doesn't have to be as stringent, but it would be in the spirit of things to ban some unrealisms, like overlapping spinners.

[Trovaner]

I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(Image removed from quote.)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.

  Perhaps a modified IRL ruleset?  It doesn't have to be as stringent, but it would be in the spirit of things to ban some unrealisms, like overlapping spinners.

Personally, I don't see something similar to IRL sticking too well in stock. DSL is about realism and stock is about efficiency (Edit: I realize how erraneous of a statement this is but I can't think of a better way of describing the focus of both).

Therefore, my opinion is that all of the overpowered, and often specialized, components should be banned or hintered greatly to promote the use of alternatives.

• Snapper II - Banned.
• 140cm Extenders - Banned.
• Beta Motor - Banned.
• cheatbot2 - Banned.
• Tribar - Banned. The collision mesh doesn't get handled correctly by RA2 and that causes two of the arms to pass through anything (making it easier to get around defences and less likely to receive damage).
• Non-static wedges - Hintered by having a rule against resting them on the ground. This doesn't completely eliminate wedges but it does limit their effectiveness. Chassis wedges and static wedges would be more common but IIRC both get stopped on occasion by normal chassis. Weapons used to get under bots would obviously have to follow this rule as well.
• Castor armor - No Restrictions. They work best when fighting HS, popups, and rammers. Further reducing the effectness of these types of bots overall. Castors are also kind of heavy for what you get out of using them like this so they wouldn't necessarily cause bots to be overpowered.

[helloface]

So it seems like Me, Gaz, and Trov are all for banning Tribars. Anyone else? How about your opinion, Click?

[Naryar]

why ban tribars ? ban unrealistic use of tribars yes, but ban tribars completely, no.

besides banning tribars nerfs HS and VS quite a bit. HS already have been nerfed enough.

[Mecha]

I would enter if it wasn't IRL but then I guess it would be like all the other tournaments.

[helloface]

why ban tribars ? ban unrealistic use of tribars yes, but ban tribars completely, no.

besides banning tribars nerfs HS and VS quite a bit. HS already have been nerfed enough.

Promotes use of other components and creativity; there isn't much creativity in a generic HS.