gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Somebody on August 13, 2010, 01:53:55 PM
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I think that stacking items outside of the chassis, like baseplate connectors on some of R0B0's bots or the TWM3R in MikeNCR's newest bot in his DSL showcase should have a different name.
Stacking is what we refer to as all stacking, but I think that it should only refer to stacking inside the chassis.
There should be another name for stacking outside the chassis.
My only idea is "Exostacking", (IE" Here is my new bot blahblahblah, with 16 iron spikes on an exostacked Dual Perm.")
Any better name ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions? etc.?
Also, should it be considered realistic?
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I think it should be allowed in stock but not DSL because it looks like the components attatched to the baseplate anchor are "floating in space".
My only idea for a name was "exostacking" as well. I'm trying to think of a different name...
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I can sometimes put ant batts 1/3 out of my chassis. (Ask G.K., showed him)
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I like exostacking, but I have yet to accomplish it effectively. Perhaps this opens up a new possibility? Which items can be exostacked? *Envisions HPzteks halfway out the chassis*
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Speak to MikeNCR
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I've seen SM do it and have done it myself.
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Easy to do with blue control boards
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No, blue CBs have a smaller collision mesh, so fit in the chassis.
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Well I guess the exostacking name sounds good. I agree that it shouldn't be allowed in DSL, because IRL, something could hit it and cause it to stop, but it can never fall off in RA2.
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confusion may arise due to the fact some parts have a passthrough collision allowing them to be placed partly outside (piglet is a very notable example)
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and some of those NPC motors. Hopefully this is all fixed in DSL 3.
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I believe that click said that he was fixing that.
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I believe Click has already fixed that :P
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I have put 3/4s servo out of a chassis but its lost now.
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I have put ants halfway out of a chassis.
But wat ? a Mag out of a chassis ? Gotta see that...
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Yea, MikeNCR just posted it in his showcase.
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Yea I saw it. It's pretty cool, i have to do it :P
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When I first showcased a bot using this glitch on the old forums, Pysclone said he had managed to get a control board completely out of the chassis.
I use this glitch quite a bit. I've had the most luck with baseplate anchors but I'm aware of it being possible for axle mounts and control boards (the most that I've gotten is only about a third of the way out).
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I've done it in DSL with skirt hinges before, but only because I didn't have enough room inside my chassis.
In stock I've only got baseplate anchors to exostack (good term Somebody) and they're kind of hit-and-miss. I've also got a control board to do it once.
In DSL perhaps a rule of thumb should be that if the component exostacked appears when fighting (like piglets and NPC's) then it should be okay. If it's invisible when fighting, it's not allowed. This allows Mags (like on Mike's new LW) to be used like piglets and NPC's.
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When I first showcased a bot using this glitch on the old forums, Pysclone said he had managed to get a control board completely out of the chassis.
How in the nine is that even possible ?
I managed to get a control board halfway out of the top plate (probably showcased, it's a Stock MW double chained HS), but that...
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Geee..... so now NARmour can be all the way outside? So much for trample damage........
I need to find out how to externalize those flails ASAP.
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Geee..... so now NARmour can be all the way outside? So much for trample damage........
^^ was exactly what I was thinking ^^
you can make invincible and invisible Armour with Batteries, motors etc
its progression like this that makes be think twice about backlash.. because I fear it will turn into exactly the thing I dont want it for or dislike
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I still don't like narmour, RA2 is about having fun and realism, not having to be beter than others :C
Wow cheesy moment
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^ If that was the case we wouldn't be striving for ultimate efficiency and hosting tourneys.
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but where do you draw the line ?
invisible indestructible armor from skirts, batteries, etc is a perfect robot combat simulation due to the fact we are striving for efficiency?
in my opinion I feel this game is becoming less and less robot combat robots and more of those cartoon/ anime fighting robots
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I second...and third...and fourth that motion.
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1) I thought we all agreed Narmour was unrealistic and therefore not allowed anyways.
2) @ Joe: the only way to fix that is to get a better engine and build a sequel or an entirely new game. In real life, components on the baseplate (if there is one) aren't indestructible. In real life, pounding on the chassis dosen't reduce a HP value that eventually depletes and you die. In real life, actual physics determines how much damage a bot dishes out, not some bizzarre formula that allows more weaponry to increase damage. In real life, components don't have hitpoints and fly off if they are scraped enough, craftsmanship determines durability. The point is RA2 can NEVER be completely like real-world combat robots like a lot of people would like it to be.
3) Did anybody actually read this idea?
In DSL perhaps a rule of thumb should be that if the component exostacked appears when fighting (like piglets and NPC's) then it should be okay. If it's invisible when fighting, it's not allowed. This allows Mags (like on Mike's new LW) to be used like piglets and NPC's.
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I know the game can never be a true sim.. I wasnt born yesterday, if anything I was agreeing with your opinion on rules invisible exo stacking = bad in DSL...
all I said was it seems the only progression people try to make nowadays is making things indestructible by exploiting the base attachable parts..
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If we were to allow DSL exostacking, it should only be motors. No batteries, control boards, or other things that are not normally outside the chassis
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Exostacking needs to be banned in DSL. Not only because it's overpowered and unrealistic, but also because you will never know if someone legitimately exostack or just BFE the parts on.
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I don't see how exostacking is "overpowered" at all. As for BFE, there's already this problem in Stock and it's a complete non-issue. We can never know if anyone truly stacks anything (like two black batteries), but we allow it because most of us can duplicate the results in the botlab so we take claims of stacking at face value. In this sense, I don't see how exostacking is any different.
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I have an idea that would solve everything, but it might be overkill.
If a bot comes into question for BFE, the builder must make a video replicating the results in the bot lab (like we did for venko) or else will be branded a cheat. Baseplate components are invisible, nothing we can do about that.
But this is stock only. If DSL is meant to maintain realism, then exostacking is out.
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Exostacking is overpower because you can potentially create NARmour everywhere with batteries, motors, axles, etc. Basically everything sticking out of the chassis that still counts as directly connected cannot be destroy. So sticking as much things out as possible will be the optimum strategy.
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Just like normal stacking, exostacking doesn't work for all components and usually only works with certain placements. Even with an excellent stacking ability, its still not easy (possible?) to make an entire side invincible with stock components (besides the baseplate). Invincible armor has been considered fair for stock in the past so I don't see any reason to change it. DSL is all about realism so NARmour and exostacking should not be considered fair. IRL components that stick out will take damage regardless of what they are connected to but since RA2 makes baseplate components invincible, it needs to be restricted.
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The line stands where the botlab ends. Anything made outside of the botlab is cheating. IMVHO.
(but I don't build bots anyway - why should you care?)
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Thinking back to 1 year ago when "typhoon flag" was easily declare unrealistic and bannable, how do we even get to the point where NARmour and Exostacking was even considered as a possibility in DSL?
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Just a couple of mostly off topic questions 123STW: Where are you from, and is English your second language?
Also, the Typhoon flag was NEVER completely unrealistic and bannable. Its problem was the ability to sink through the arena floor creating potentially "un-outwedgeable" bots (although in my testing this theory didn't stand up at all - the opponent just slid through the non-existant collision mesh and under the bot). Also, it was generally not used because it glitched in online play, making bots equipped with it unable to be selected at all. It only had limited uses as well (a static srimech for SS's) and there are better options around.
Exostacking is overpower because you can potentially create NARmour everywhere with batteries, motors, axles, etc. Basically everything sticking out of the chassis that still counts as directly connected cannot be destroy. So sticking as much things out as possible will be the optimum strategy.
We've already established that invisible collision mesh armour isn't kosher, so you're arguing a moot point. I for one think that if motors when exostacked appear in combat, they should be allowed. Just because components are attached to the chassis doesn't mean they don't take damage; baseplate components still take all the damage that non-baseplate components would and in the case of motors, taking damage means decreased functionality and preformance. So, exostacking them becomes a risk/reward excersize, not blatant cheating (like NARmour).
However I don't know which components appear and do not appear on the baseplate in combat, nor do I know if invisible components take damage. Perhaps someone should take a detailed look into this so we can have something definitive to base arguments on.
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What's wrong with my English? Am I typing something you don't understand? Or am I misinterpreting something? My guess though is if you believe I misinterpret what others said, it's probably just because I am paranoid and delusional. I always think a few people will try to bend the rule a little bit at a time until it becomes meaningless.
Invisible component connected to chassis still creates invisible wall. Already done that during my BFE tour.
Typhoon flag was shouted down for both being a wedge and as stabilizers. I know since I made the topic.
The "un-outwedgeable" wedge was T-Minus Arm + Metal hinge. T-Minus Arm has the tendency to sink underground so it makes a perfectly good underground wedge.
The typhoon flag wedge was used to create unconditional wedge locks. Because when the other person's bot tries to pick it up, then those typhoon flag comes up and locks both bot in place.
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I just asked about your English because you have a tendency to forget pluralizations and tenses, which are hallmarks of people who have another language as their first. You're not misinterpreting anything, I was just curious xD
We weren't on the same page with this debate for a bit though. This seems to have corrected itself.
And I read the Typhoon flag thread and other than you (you did say you thought it should be banned) only Naryar condemned it, but only for use as an anti-wedge device. No one shouted it down for stabilizers.
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IMVHO bots like Mike's, with the motor sticking out, should be allowed. The part is visible in battle, still (sorta) takes damage, and doesn't really make an inpenetrable shield. A popup or wammer could tear it apart pretty easily.
What should be illegalized, though, are things like Narmour, using baseplate parts to create an unbreakable shield.
RW2 will allow exostacking to a point, similar to my BFE rule.
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I don't see how exostacking is "overpowered" at all.
Wait, are we going to apply some sort of list of techniques that are "overpowered"?
B&-
HP Z-Teks with rubber wheels
Limited to 2:
2 bupts with 1 engine off each bluebird
No longer limited:
The use of plastic
??????????????????
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IMVHO bots like Mike's, with the motor sticking out, should be allowed. The part is visible in battle, still (sorta) takes damage, and doesn't really make an inpenetrable shield. A popup or wammer could tear it apart pretty easily.
What should be illegalized, though, are things like Narmour, using baseplate parts to create an unbreakable shield.
RW2 will allow exostacking to a point, similar to my BFE rule.
Here's the question. If we can use narmour in DSL, why not Caster armour?
Caster armour is realistic anyways, I could armour a sting bot in caster wheels, exept that's ghey.
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So, can you exactly explain how you can take off a 100kg+ hammers in a finite amount of hits but not 24kg worth of caster armor?
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*that's because it's on the baseplate. Next we're gonna have motor armour, and any other baseplate part armour.
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Caster armour is realistic anyways
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Heck, I'm already staying away from halfsheet attachements for that same reason.
Parts of motors showing off is a bit touchy for me. I don't really like its ability to absorb damage, which is why I tend to attach these things to places opponents rarely reach. If I ever used baseplate armor to my advantage, I usually put some kind of Achilles' heel on it just to be fair.
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Next we're gonna have motor armour, and any other baseplate part armour.
Fatboy Tire-Armor
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those tires / tyres (where ever your from) arnt baseplate mountable ;)
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those tires / tyres (where ever your from) arnt baseplate mountable ;)
True
But those axle mounts only have a weight of like 3.
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those tires / tyres (where ever your from) arnt baseplate mountable ;)
True
But those axle mounts only have a weight of like 3.
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No, they weigh 4.5 kg. or something like that.
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But those axle mounts only have a weight of like 3.
then the wheels will break off like anything else, the axles on the other hand will be invincible
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But those axle mounts only have a weight of like 3.
then the wheels will break off like anything else, the axles on the other hand will be invincible
But this topic has proven that axles are "illegal".
So I guess we need to find some other weird alternative.
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R0B0: IIRC, 123 said he was a Chinese-American who got US citizenship a few years back.
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Going back to Pwnator's point, I think that motors should be aloowed to be exostacked if they're actually doing something, like driving the bot. Most bots already put NPC Fasts halfway out the back of the chassis, and when they get hit, the bot starts slowing down, so you lose out on that. But if there's just random motors sticking out with nothing attached to them, then that's unrealistic. Motor's aren't used as armour at all.
Halfsheets on the baseplate, in my experience, don't offer that great a deal of protection. I really only use them when I'm wanting to perhaps build off of them.
And J, can you actually exostack axle mounts? I've never been able to do that.
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(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/61394Spastic_OCD Pic 2.jpg)
Spastic_OCD, Madiaba entered it in GUMBA
Good example of motor protection. This is legal because it automatically stacks. I think that exostacking a normal motor like this should be legal, but exostacking batteries, etc. should be illegal.
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Exostacking motors should be legal, because it's a perfectly viable idea IRL. Bots like Onslaught and Sumpthing have motors "exostacked"
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And most times, without even trying, I can exostack a blue control board.
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Ugh...
No, blue CBs have a smaller collision mesh, so fit in the chassis.
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Ugh...
No, blue CBs have a smaller collision mesh, so fit in the chassis.
I have noticed that. Sometimes you can see it poking out of the chassis just a little bit.
Also the Battlepacks, if you mount them vertically, you get the wires sticking out of the top. Which is kinda annoying, tbh.
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Yeah the wires are a nice touch at first, but with 20 of them sticking out of the top of a chassis, it looks terrible.
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exo-stacking anything in the power tab should be outlawed.. if you did it IRL you will find your robot with no power and your batteries in pieces scattered along the floor, infact (I will need backup from a real roboteer, maybe SKBT) Batts that are hanging out on the robot can cause matches to end ? or something along those lines.. I can vaguely recall cease being called when Hypnodisc "exostacked" another robots battery for them :P
The blue CB can naturally be placed in a smaller area then its size but this can always be tweaked like the skirt hinge I plan to finish some time :P
motors can be outside the chassis (though this is being fixed for DSL 3, but for DSL 2 I am fine with it, since IRL robots arnt confined to a shape to place parts in
speaking of tweaking the base mountable extenders shoudl be made visible too (like the base-plate anchor) again I can do this sometime :P
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I can vaguely recall cease being called when Hypnodisc "exostacked" another robots battery for them :P
Its not Hypnodisc's fault the opponent had batteries on the outside.
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Yeah most times bots don't work if their batteries break or are lying somewhere else in the arena. :P
Judges can end a match at any time if there is a saftey hazzard. I've only ever seen it enforced once and that was because of a battery fire. I've never seen a match called by judges because of a battery hanging out. Most times the driver will tap out if the battery on their bot is hanging out because by then you are screwed.
I think that a bot with an exposed battery would fail saftey and not be allowed to compete.
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I've only ever seen it enforced once and that was because of a battery fire.
Thats why they made that ref-bot, which has a fire extinguisher attached to one of its arms.
And you forgot about Dreadnaut, who used a Diamond-edged saw blade.
Appearently it was illeagle, so they ended the match and had the blade removed.
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I was talking about my personal combat experience with current combat rules in the US.
Also I don't compete in the UK on a now defunct for TV compitition so no refbot. :P
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bah the only good thing refbot did with its extinguisher was fighting Sgt Bash with it :P
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And you forgot about Dreadnaut, who used a Diamond-edged saw blade.
Appearently it was illeagle, so they ended the match and had the blade removed.
That is new to me. Don't you mean Pussycat with a hardened cutting blade?
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And you forgot about Dreadnaut, who used a Diamond-edged saw blade.
Appearently it was illeagle, so they ended the match and had the blade removed.
That is new to me. Don't you mean Pussycat with a hardened cutting blade?
If I recall, Pussycat's blade literaly 'exploded', and they had to stop the match for a moment to fix the issue.
I forget why, but it was something like that.
EDIT:
The fight with Dreadnaut was also one of the better ones.
All the house-bots went after Dreadnaut because they didnt like how shiny it was. It was such lulz
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I thought it was Trident they went after because it was shiny.
bah the only good thing refbot did with its extinguisher was fighting Sgt Bash with it :P
And attempting to put out Sir Killalot when he drove over a flame jet. =P
I don't I've seen a bot with the batts mounted outside the chassis. Apart from Splinter, though they were put there by accident.
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I thought it was Trident they went after because it was shiny.
Triden/Dreadnaut, I forget. I just know he looked like a dinosaur.
Oh, and Ref-Bot also had a camera mounted to it, for close-up action shots.
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for the off topic saw blade discussion Cerberus had a spinning blade that they were not allowed to use ;)
now back on topic