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Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: madman3 on July 30, 2014, 04:54:19 PM

Title: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 30, 2014, 04:54:19 PM
I've recently wondered whether it would be worth composing a rough tier list of which bot types are most effective in each style (stock, DSL standard, IRL). As such I've come up with a basic one for DSL, if that helps. First thing listed in each grouping is the best of that group, with the stuff behind it descending unless a slash is used.

DSL Standard
IRL:
Stock:
Feel free to contest any of these, I haven't put any thorough testing into this but from my experience the overall success of robots goes sort of in this order. If anyone has ideas for Stock or a more detailed IRL listing (not that it matters outside of Drums being OP) that would be neat.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Philippa on July 30, 2014, 04:55:32 PM
No love for side hammers.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 30, 2014, 04:56:59 PM
Yeah they suck bro, everything just kinda eats them
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: ty4er on July 30, 2014, 04:58:03 PM
flail rammers above all of those xdddd

i wouldn't say trfbd and vs are top picks, since they either have no defences or no weapons. popups and pure out-weaponing bots are the main types now i'd say
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Mecha on July 30, 2014, 04:59:38 PM
Isn't this just like A.D.C?
https://wiki.gametechmods.com/index.php?title=ADC (https://wiki.gametechmods.com/index.php?title=ADC)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 30, 2014, 05:01:15 PM
flail rammers above all of those xdddd

i wouldn't say trfbd and vs are top picks, since they either have no defences or no weapons. popups and pure out-weaponing bots are the main types now i'd say

VS seem to be one of the few bot types that legitimately don't have any really bad matchups besides SnS since they can often just outweapon HS and SnS/remove their setups.
As for TRFBDs, they only really lose to SnS, but they do lose really badly in that matchup. Basically nothing besides VS other than those can touch them so I'd say they hard counter most bot types.
I could have them behind SnS but eh.

Isn't this just like A.D.C?
https://wiki.gametechmods.com/index.php?title=ADC (https://wiki.gametechmods.com/index.php?title=ADC)
ADC is too old and indicates a dated metagame I find. Drums are much too high, whilst Shell Spinners are too low and too much is made of the flail distinction which is practically pointless given almost no bots in those types don't use flails.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Natster-104 on July 30, 2014, 05:01:44 PM
what about wejes

Looks pretty good, I agree with most of the IRL ones, though side hammers, if done correctly, can be quite deadly (Big metal friend)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: ty4er on July 30, 2014, 05:04:46 PM
flail rammers above all of those xdddd

i wouldn't say trfbd and vs are top picks, since they either have no defences or no weapons. popups and pure out-weaponing bots are the main types now i'd say

VS seem to be one of the few bot types that legitimately don't have any really bad matchups besides SnS since they can often just outweapon HS and SnS/remove their setups.
As for TRFBDs, they only really lose to SnS, but they do lose really badly in that matchup. Basically nothing besides VS other than those can touch them so I'd say they hard counter most bot types.
I could have them behind SnS but eh.
heavy rammers and flail rammers beat vs pretty easily, due to survivability and outweaponing capability. same with trfbds really, since they can't have that many weapons because of their design.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: RpJk on July 30, 2014, 05:07:00 PM
Make a Stock Version!
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: ty4er on July 30, 2014, 05:07:56 PM
Make a Stock Version!
hs and good wedges
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 30, 2014, 05:08:41 PM
flail rammers above all of those xdddd

i wouldn't say trfbd and vs are top picks, since they either have no defences or no weapons. popups and pure out-weaponing bots are the main types now i'd say

VS seem to be one of the few bot types that legitimately don't have any really bad matchups besides SnS since they can often just outweapon HS and SnS/remove their setups.
As for TRFBDs, they only really lose to SnS, but they do lose really badly in that matchup. Basically nothing besides VS other than those can touch them so I'd say they hard counter most bot types.
I could have them behind SnS but eh.
heavy rammers and flail rammers beat vs pretty easily, due to survivability and outweaponing capability. same with trfbds really, since they can't have that many weapons because of their design.
I can see that being true for VS, but not for TRFBDs since rammers just spaz out underneath them or repeatedly damage their top side attacking.
I'll move rammers up though and VS down a tad, but I still disagree regarding their capacity to beat TRFBDs, and I'm honestly a tad dubious they'd do well against Disk VS (Given the whole rock paper scissors scenario of static piercing beating out flail piercing)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 30, 2014, 05:09:33 PM
Make a Stock Version!
I am most certainly no expert at the Stock meta, Popups are the best realistically and then HS but everything after that I have no idea about.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Mr. AS on July 30, 2014, 05:20:37 PM
Where's the stock m8?


e: adding more bot types
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Virus Bomb on July 30, 2014, 05:34:51 PM
crawlers>>>>
why tf do u have hammers in a higher tier than jugglers as
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Mr. AS on July 30, 2014, 09:10:21 PM
crawlers>>>>
why tf do u have hammers in a higher tier than jugglers as
Hammers can beat HS. Can jugglers do that?
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 31, 2014, 02:45:27 AM
Where's the stock m8?


e: adding more bot types
Adding to first post, I agree with most stuff on it.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Naryar on July 31, 2014, 03:03:48 AM
ADC is useless and means nothing.

Also that sounds mostly accurate. I would put crawlers in top-tier though.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Shield on July 31, 2014, 05:28:53 AM
For IRL, you should list the flipper's effectiveness in an enclosed arena(combat arena/Battlebox) and an OOTA-able arena (BBEANS arena, DSL tourney arena)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 31, 2014, 08:38:52 AM
For IRL, you should list the flipper's effectiveness in an enclosed arena(combat arena/Battlebox) and an OOTA-able arena (BBEANS arena, DSL tourney arena)
K.

Should we get this stickied?
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Wacky Bob on July 31, 2014, 09:31:06 AM
I think side hammers should be higher and wammers should be lower on the stock list.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Shield on July 31, 2014, 10:23:38 AM
I personally think flippers are too low for both Standard and IRL.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 31, 2014, 12:36:59 PM
I personally think flippers are too low for both Standard and IRL.
They tend to not have very good damage output (obviously) and are often de-weaponed. Also, their setup often depends on multiple external bursts which get hit too easily. I'd argue that they may be better in IRL but in Standard they are extremely average.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Virus Bomb on July 31, 2014, 12:52:57 PM
crawlers>>>>
why tf do u have hammers in a higher tier than jugglers as
Hammers can beat HS. Can jugglers do that?

(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/4092pod3_ultimatum.PNG)

it's silly to rank hammers above jugglers just because of one favorable match up. hammers are only good against hses, rammers, and prolly side hammers. outside of hses and crawlers jugglers will usually beat pretty much everything a popup and any other gut ripper can beat, and are a lot more likely to win a tourney than a hammer (has a hammer ever won a tourney?). you might as well put wedgeless vses above rammers because wedgeless vses trash popups.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 31, 2014, 01:39:13 PM
Agreeing with VB, will edit that section
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Mr. AS on July 31, 2014, 02:17:36 PM
(a_single_example_of_a_juggler_beating_a_HS.jpg)

it's silly to rank hammers above jugglers just because of one favorable match up.
...outside of hses and crawlers jugglers will usually beat pretty much everything a popup and any other gut ripper can beat
I don't think you understand. Being at top tier and being a widely built type of bot, being able to beat HS is *VERY* important. A juggler is almost certainly going to get trashed by the first HS it sees, where as hammers could put up a fight. Relying on RNG not to match your juggler against a HS is rather silly.

...and are a lot more likely to win a tourney than a hammer (has a hammer ever won a tourney?)
Jugglers have won literally one more tourney than hammers according to this thread (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=5289.0), but it needs a serious update.

you might as well put wedgeless vses above rammers because wedgeless vses trash popups.
I can agree with moving wedgeless VS up a bit, yeah. I might have been too harsh on them.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on July 31, 2014, 02:47:29 PM
List altered again for stock, not changing it again until we finish this little debate ;)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Virus Bomb on July 31, 2014, 03:29:51 PM
I don't think you understand. Being at top tier and being a widely built type of bot, being able to beat HS is *VERY* important. A juggler is almost certainly going to get trashed by the first HS it sees, where as hammers could put up a fight. Relying on RNG not to match your juggler against a HS is rather silly.

and thats not gonna mean alot if a hammer beats a hs and then goes up against a vs, a popup (popups usually have the best wedges from what i seen), or a juggler (jugglers also usually have better wedges than hammers, and hammers usually have to get lucky to disarm jugglers; most of the time they lose their weapons). yeah hammers are good/great for taking out hses, but i would much rather enter something that can succeed at fighting a variety of bot types instead of just being good at fighting one or two.

also why do you have rammers so high? they are only good in lw and sub-lw classes, anything higher and they get owned by a bunch of stuff (anything with a wedge, most if not all vses, etc.)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Sage on July 31, 2014, 06:58:54 PM
I mean how many hammer designs can actually take out a good HS? Final destination can, and that's only because of caster armor. Even then, it has to be so wide and spend so much weight on defense that it becomes less effective against other bot types.

Jugglers are over all way better. NWB is a legend. Jabberwock is not.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Wacky Bob on July 31, 2014, 07:04:05 PM
Jugglers are over all way better. RPB is a legend. Jabberwock is not.
NWB?
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: NeighImACarrot on July 31, 2014, 07:14:10 PM
****erwolf good HW destroyer
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Shield on July 31, 2014, 07:41:58 PM
I personally think flippers are too low for both Standard and IRL.
They tend to not have very good damage output (obviously) and are often de-weaponed. Also, their setup often depends on multiple external bursts which get hit too easily. I'd argue that they may be better in IRL but in Standard they are extremely average.

Smashbox begs to differ. But then again, im no expert on standard.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Sage on July 31, 2014, 09:26:12 PM
Jugglers are over all way better. RPB is a legend. Jabberwock is not.
NWB?

Yes. I did the wrong acronym lol. Been 7 years since I played SCv3. Although RPB is similar to a juggler.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Virus Bomb on August 01, 2014, 09:23:55 AM
I mean how many hammer designs can actually take out a good HS? Final destination can, and that's only because of caster armor.

you're underestimating fatal encounter imo
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: KOS on August 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
And the LW Godhammer called TURN DOWN FOR WHAT, that thing wrecks every LW spinner
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Naryar on August 01, 2014, 10:49:44 AM
hammers should be pretty low tier because they suck against most things.

They CAN beat hammers and rammers, especially at lighter weightclasses (maybe increase hammer tier at LW/MW ?) but it's not even sure.

Every other bot type can beat a HS (well with the possible exception of drums and VS)... beating a high tier bot isn't that important when a whole bot type suffers from overspecialization.

Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: 090901 on August 01, 2014, 10:51:50 AM
hammers should be pretty low tier because they suck against most things.

They CAN beat hammers and rammers, especially at lighter weightclasses (maybe increase hammer tier at LW/MW ?) but it's not even sure.
are you sure hammers can beat other hammers naryar????  :p
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Naryar on August 01, 2014, 11:00:48 AM
hammers should be pretty low tier because they suck against most things.

They CAN beat hammers and rammers, especially at lighter weightclasses (maybe increase hammer tier at LW/MW ?) but it's not even sure.
are you sure hammers can beat other hammers naryar????  :p

Hammer vs hammer is kinda a derpfest (and a penis length contest as well) so it just proves my point :P
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: El Chickenado on August 01, 2014, 11:08:52 AM
ohh no the fighting game tier list is being implied prepare for people complaining if you use the high tier bot types
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Naryar on August 01, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
ohh no the fighting game tier list is being implied prepare for people complaining if you use the high tier bot types


>implying that this list didn't exist implicity beforehand
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on August 02, 2014, 04:36:15 AM
ohh no the fighting game tier list is being implied prepare for people complaining if you use the high tier bot types
Because people don't already complain about people using Flail SnS or Popups or TRFBDs already...  ;)
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: El Chickenado on August 02, 2014, 12:00:00 PM
ohh no the fighting game tier list is being implied prepare for people complaining if you use the high tier bot types
Because people don't already complain about people using Flail SnS or Popups or TRFBDs already...  ;)
no but now noobs will look at this list and be like i need to build that its the best!
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: ty4er on August 02, 2014, 12:11:07 PM
ohh no the fighting game tier list is being implied prepare for people complaining if you use the high tier bot types
Because people don't already complain about people using Flail SnS or Popups or TRFBDs already...  ;)
no but now noobs will look at this list and be like i need to build that its the best!
it'll only be the best if they can build it decently, which will (hopefully) help them learn to build.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Mr. AS on August 02, 2014, 12:15:56 PM
ohh no the fighting game tier list is being implied prepare for people complaining if you use the high tier bot types
Because people don't already complain about people using Flail SnS or Popups or TRFBDs already...  ;)
no but now noobs will look at this list and be like i need to build that its the best!
I mean, its not like new members aren't already building halfassed IRL spinners right off the bat.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: cephalopod on August 02, 2014, 12:36:18 PM
^ New members aren't exactly usually jumping into Stock or DSL-S - look at yourself, Chicken.
This list existed in most people's minds already. As 09 was saying to me yesterday, not a lot of 36hs are entered in tournaments as almost a 'gentleman's agreement'.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Scrap Daddy on August 02, 2014, 12:38:56 PM
Yup, it's an unspoken rule that ur a little bitch boi if you enter HS into tournaments. Almost as bad as people still entering the same rad sns and popups, or sticking a dual perm and hammerZ on a chassis and calling it irl.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on August 02, 2014, 02:36:48 PM
Yup, it's an unspoken rule that ur a little bitch boi if you enter HS into tournaments. Almost as bad as people still entering the same rad sns and popups, or sticking a dual perm and hammerZ on a chassis and calling it irl.
Basically this.

Entering a very good bot type like a popup or HS is generally viewed as fair but uninteresting and so people avoid doing it too much unless it's a big tournament.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: System32 on September 11, 2014, 10:47:36 PM
Ugh just got linked here so here is a bump and a shut up.




Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Pwnator on September 12, 2014, 03:34:06 AM
yes yes yes s32 got it right

tier lists never work when there is a rock-paper-scissors effect going on
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: 123savethewhales on September 12, 2014, 04:37:53 AM
That looks more like a 2012 DSL tier list than a 2014 DSL tier list.

And IRL definitely DO NOT need a tier list.

tier lists never work when there is a rock-paper-scissors effect going on
Actually you can have a tier list since some bot type clearly outclass others by a huge margin, and doesn't have an effective counter outside it's own tier.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: System32 on September 12, 2014, 11:00:08 AM
123 has it right, ish.

RPS effect has no meaning when there are 50 other possible matchups and Rock beats 25 of them while Paper only beats 3.

The reason I linked the smash table was for that reason, a lot of mid to low tier fighters are counter-picks to larger ones. Same goes for pokemon.

Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Shield on September 12, 2014, 11:03:07 AM
That looks more like a 2012 DSL tier list than a 2014 DSL tier list.

And IRL definitely DO NOT need a tier list.

tier lists never work when there is a rock-paper-scissors effect going on
Actually you can have a tier list since some bot type clearly outclass others by a huge margin, and doesn't have an effective counter outside it's own tier.

123 has it right, ish.

RPS effect has no meaning when there are 50 other possible matchups and Rock beats 25 of them while Paper only beats 3.

The reason I linked the smash table was for that reason, a lot of mid to low tier fighters are counter-picks to larger ones. Same goes for pokemon.



perhaps the bot type that can beat the most bot types can be placed in the higher tiers while the bot types that can only do well against one or two other bot types could be classified as bad?
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: System32 on September 12, 2014, 12:04:56 PM
That essentially what counterpicks are.

For instance, Hammers are counterpicks to Rammers.

Rammers are more popular and get further than hammers usually, but a well made hammer is usually going to go far. Not Juggler or Popup level good, but good enough to go far.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on October 18, 2014, 05:04:17 AM
Would it be preferable if I state individual matchups for each bot type?
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: Naryar on October 18, 2014, 05:31:34 AM
Nah, both are valid. It is true that HS and Popups win tournaments, as well as the occasionnal juggler.

But yes do a table of type advantages. It'll be useful for newbs.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on October 18, 2014, 05:37:34 AM
I've partially done one for DSL HW, but it'll take forever XD
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: thesnowingsteak on October 18, 2014, 10:58:56 AM
Crawler's banned?
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: System32 on October 19, 2014, 09:46:33 AM
Not always, it's an old archaic rule that people still use because their precious popups get hurt and most people copy paste rules from previous tournaments.

You'll usually see something about "No controlled movement" and then "That bot doesn't count" in the next post.
Title: Re: RA2 Bot Type Tier List?
Post by: madman3 on October 20, 2014, 02:23:05 PM
Crawlers are far from unbeatable so I'd say they're okay. I'd so TRFBDs do almost all the same stuff somewhat better but eh