gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: R1885 on June 08, 2011, 09:04:55 PM
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As of late, I noticed that one wheeled bots have been getting the ax recently. My question is, why? One wheeled bots have been built for years, many melty brain spinners exist in US tournaments, I can name two right now if I wanted to. What makes them such a taboo?
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I voted No. I am not a big fan of banning bots.
However, because tournaments are AI driven in RA2... The part that irks me about 1 wheeled bots is that the opposing AI drives straight into a spinning vortex of razors. No strategy to be had usually. At least against a Melty Brain bot IRL you can use a bit of driving skill to defeat it. In RA2... the AI has limitations... so having a one wheeled bot in some cases is a cheap exploitation of the opponents bot AI.
EDIT: hahahahah... i based my vote on the question for the topic header... not the question in the poll. (which are opposite questions) Sneaky Ribbsy... you tricked me.
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My guess is that the controversy lies around the AI being able to drive one-wheeled bots with proficiency far exceeding that of a human...I could definitely not drive one of those things in a straight line.
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It's funny, this is actually quite similar to the Son of Whyachi controversy.
In the case of Son of Whyachi, they revoked its extra weight allowance, maybe we could do something similar.
How about crawlers and one-wheelers have their weight allowances cut by 1/3?
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SON OF WHYACHI BEAT BIOHAZARD SO THERE FOR CHEATED.
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If you can't drive it as good as the AI does yourself, it shouldn't be allowed.
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Once again, this hateful community lessens the fun in a dying game :/
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Once again, this hateful community lessens the fun in a dying game :/
People have been saying ra2 is dying for years.
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Hmmm true. But killing off designs won't help.
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Hmmm true. But killing off designs won't help.
I'm all for the design! Just not Melty brain
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Hmmm true. But killing off designs won't help.
Hmmm true. But killing off just the game-breaking designs will. =D
I think we should wait and see how many tourneys S_M wins :P Dark Void 2 didn't win DoD, did it?
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Banned from tournaments? Why, because there good? :P I don't see why they should be banned in tournaments. Its not like they severely unbalance the game. In DSL they just allow for a few more weapons to be put on. In stock they seem to just allow one wheel HS to more easily outweapon their two wheel counterparts.
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Was Sheer Death a meltybrain?
Didn't it just use the spinner to steer?
If 1wd bots do that, it'd be easier to beat them.
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Leave it up to the tournament host, plain and simple. At that point the community's willingness to vote for your tournament becomes the deciding factor, and eventually if enough people want them gone the tournaments that will accept them will become less prevalent and we won't have to fight about it anymore.
Simple economic principle.
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- IIRC, all BBEANS participants up until BBEANS 6 had to pass a controlled movement test in which Clickbeetle would manouever the robot himself manually through the test garage. Any robots that failed this test would not be permitted in BBEANS in order to limit bots from skimping on critical components (like drive) in favour of massive weaponry. This rule was implemented because building close-to-immobile weapon walls IS EXPLOITING THE LIMITS OF THE AI IN RA2. Because the AI is simply not smart enough to stop attacking when a robot is stuck or immobile before the immobility counter starts, there is nothing to prevent a bot from reckless suicide attacks, thus simultaneously killing itself and keeping its opponent mobile. Because of this rule, 1WD robots have been formally banned from tourneys in the past. There is a precedent in place for "killing off" this one particular design.
- I hear the "but it exists IRL" argument for questionable designs far too often, but let's accept the "existing in real life" argument as the foundation of the realistic rule for a minute. Logically then, designs that do NOT exist IRL should be outlawed because they violate the realistic rule on the grounds of not existing. If we are to follow this path, then we should ban every single type of gut-ripper ever concieved as well as the use of burst wedges, door hinge wedges, razor tips, burst-enhanced weapon motors, chained motors and all building glitches, including bursted/spinning weapons passing through any external or internal component. If we're worried about killing off designs, I really suggest we don't go here.
- For the record, one-wheeled melty brain-controlled flail shell spiners don't exist in real life anyways. So why are we using the "they exist!" argument at all? It doesn't defend them. Actually, if we follow the logic I outlined above, they should be outright banned anyways.
In conclusion, no matter how you look at it, we can't defend the existence of melty brain shell spinners in RA2. They're unrealistic on two levels: 1) the advantage that melty brain on a FSS gives is unrealistic in the sense that there would be no such advantage in real life. Human drivers are smarter, and could simply avoid until the correct time and wait for an opening to attack. Also, 1WD FSS can't be piloted by humans. I know that even today's IRL melty brains can be driven manually, so 1WD FSS are also unrealistic because they don't work! And 2) even if you take the perspective of "because melty brain exists in real life, it does not violate the realistic rule," your logic still does not justify how the controversial one-wheeled flail shell spinner is allowed since they do not exist in real life.
Unless the 1WD robot can be driven in the test garage in an identical or similar manner as it will behave under AI guidance, it should be banned.
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I voted no. even though it`s unrealistic (mostly) it limits creativity. and that`s what this game is all about
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- IIRC, all BBEANS participants up until BBEANS 6 had to pass a controlled movement test in which Clickbeetle would manouever the robot himself manually through the test garage. Any robots that failed this test would not be permitted in BBEANS in order to limit bots from skimping on critical components (like drive) in favour of massive weaponry. This rule was implemented because building close-to-immobile weapon walls IS EXPLOITING THE LIMITS OF THE AI IN RA2. Because the AI is simply not smart enough to stop attacking when a robot is stuck or immobile before the immobility counter starts, there is nothing to prevent a bot from reckless suicide attacks, thus simultaneously killing itself and keeping its opponent mobile. Because of this rule, 1WD robots have been formally banned from tourneys in the past. There is a precedent in place for "killing off" this one particular design.
- I hear the "but it exists IRL" argument for questionable designs far too often, but let's accept the "existing in real life" argument as the foundation of the realistic rule for a minute. Logically then, designs that do NOT exist IRL should be outlawed because they violate the realistic rule on the grounds of not existing. If we are to follow this path, then we should ban every single type of gut-ripper ever concieved as well as the use of burst wedges, door hinge wedges, razor tips, burst-enhanced weapon motors, chained motors and all building glitches, including bursted/spinning weapons passing through any external or internal component. If we're worried about killing off designs, I really suggest we don't go here.
- For the record, one-wheeled melty brain-controlled flail shell spiners don't exist in real life anyways. So why are we using the "they exist!" argument at all? It doesn't defend them. Actually, if we follow the logic I outlined above, they should be outright banned anyways.
In conclusion, no matter how you look at it, we can't defend the existence of melty brain shell spinners in RA2. They're unrealistic on two levels: 1) the advantage that melty brain on a FSS gives is unrealistic in the sense that there would be no such advantage in real life. Human drivers are smarter, and could simply avoid until the correct time and wait for an opening to attack. Also, 1WD FSS can't be piloted by humans. I know that even today's IRL melty brains can be driven manually, so 1WD FSS are also unrealistic because they don't work! And 2) even if you take the perspective of "because melty brain exists in real life, it does not violate the realistic rule," your logic still does not justify how the controversial one-wheeled flail shell spinner is allowed since they do not exist in real life.
Unless the 1WD robot can be driven in the test garage in an identical or similar manner as it will behave under AI guidance, it should be banned.
Who cares what BBEANS did. Also, you seem to be confusing dumb AI attacking immobile objects with Melty-brain AI driven bots, which can actively seek out and attack their opponents. Honestly your stupid-AI argument can be just as easily applied to rammers, where as a smart human driver would go for the back of the rammer, the "stupid" AI attacks head on. That is just how RA2 works, it has nothing to do with the legality of 1-wheeled bots.
Honestly, I would only use the "they exist in real life argument" when someone claims they are unrealistic because they cannot be found IRL. Your argument about how FSS are given an unfair advantage because "Human drivers are smarter, and could simply avoid until the correct time and wait for an opening to attack" is ridiculous. This could be applied to many other robot types, ranging from regular SS and SnS to rammers and popups. Obviously a human AI would try to outmaneuver and attack an opponents weak points. In RA2, AIs simply aren't as smart as humans. Deal with it.
IRL Melty Brain bots are driven by a computer that takes signals given by the humans and transforms it into small changes in the drive speed. It is just as computerized as any AI except humans can give generalized commands to said computer.
In conclusion, your use of the "stupid AI" argument is no good because it can be applied to a multitude of other bot types and simply flies in the face of how RA2 AI has always and probably will always work. Of course FSS don't exist in real life. Neither do gut rippers. When dealing with realism it is a question of "whether or not this bot could POSSIBLY be built," not whether or not it would work well.
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This is the DSL LW equivalent of the 36HS. And thesae bots are the original powerful bots like ULTIMATUM and Absolute Chaos. Building will catch up. Otherwise, R0B0 still has a point. If every bot has to pass a controlled movement test, then that is the end of this design.
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controlled movement test,
You mean a manual controlled movement test. They can function just fine, and seeing how these are AI tournaments and all I don't see why human control should even get involved.
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controlled movement test,
You mean a manual controlled movement test. They can function just fine, and seeing how these are AI tournaments and all I don't see why human control should even get involved.
Because they WOULD be human controlled if RA2 wasn't so damn laggy.
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Because they WOULD be human controlled if RA2 wasn't so damn laggy.
Irrelevant. They ARE AI tournaments. If we ever get human control tournaments then the rules can be set as fit. But right now our tournaments use AI.
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Because they WOULD be human controlled if RA2 wasn't so damn laggy.
Irrelevant. They ARE AI tournaments. If we ever get human control tournaments then the rules can be set as fit. But right now our tournaments use AI.
By that argument you can make AI codes where lightning attacks all opponents and kills them instantly. It IS AI, you are right. Could a human controlled bot do it? Not without custom components. But hey, it's not a human tournament, it's an AI tournament! SO obviously anything that gives bots advantages is fair game.
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By that argument you can make AI codes where lightning attacks all opponents and kills them instantly. It IS AI, you are right. Could a human controlled bot do it? Not without custom components. But hey, it's not a human tournament, it's an AI tournament! SO obviously anything that gives bots advantages is fair game.
But you see we don't outlaw the use of lightening because a human driver can't create it. We outlaw it because it defeats the purpose of RA2. In RA2 robots are supposed to fight. That is a principle of the game. That is why dealing damage to your opponent via an AI is disallowed.
We use AI's to drive our bots and allow for robot fighting to take place. Human control is another method of getting robots to fight each other. Both are valid ways, but AI doesn't have to be restrained to only allowing what human drivers can do.
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By that argument you can make AI codes where lightning attacks all opponents and kills them instantly. It IS AI, you are right. Could a human controlled bot do it? Not without custom components. But hey, it's not a human tournament, it's an AI tournament! SO obviously anything that gives bots advantages is fair game.
But you see we don't outlaw the use of lightening because a human driver can't create it. We outlaw it because it defeats the purpose of RA2. In RA2 robots are supposed to fight. That is a principle of the game. That is why dealing damage to your opponent via an AI is disallowed.
We use AI's to drive our bots and allow for robot fighting to take place. Human control is another method of getting robots to fight each other. Both are valid ways, but AI doesn't have to be restrained to only allowing what human drivers can do.
Alright. I'll go build a bot that has no wheels which flies around the arena (thanks to AI) that drops down on the top of other robots (this no wheeled robot has a rack of FS on the bottom) for an easy KO. The robots are fighting each other, right? I'm just using AI for advantageous movement.
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Alright. I'll go build a bot that has no wheels which flies around the arena (thanks to AI) that drops down on the top of other robots (this no wheeled robot has a rack of FS on the bottom) for an easy KO. The robots are fighting each other, right? I'm just using AI for advantageous movement.
Once again this has to do with the spirit of robot fighting. Generally we don't want AI's to do for a robot what it can't do with the components attached to it (flying thanks to Trinity glitch would thus be acceptable). In terms of 1-wheel bots, the components can easily do what the AI makes it do, it just requires the proper control pattern a human is likely incapable of doing.
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If you can't drive it as good as the AI does yourself, it shouldn't be allowed.
Well thats silly.. what if people can drive better then others..
I actually taught myself how to drive Melty Brain :P
Anyway all we are doing is picking on something that fights well.. im sure we had the debate in the past about popup's too..
Just roll with it, picky rules cause more problems then they fix..
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I actually taught myself how to drive Melty Brain :P
And with that this debate can be closed.
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Okay, that makes sense.
Next HW stock tournament I'm entering a melty brain HS.
EDIT: @joe- video please!
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Yeah, you simply power the drive when it is facing forwards and don't when it isn't. I do it all the time to test my 1WD bots. (I'm not that good but no-one can drive melty-brain perfectly in RA2 or IRL)
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Leave it up to the tournament host, plain and simple. At that point the community's willingness to vote for your tournament becomes the deciding factor, and eventually if enough people want them gone the tournaments that will accept them will become less prevalent and we won't have to fight about it anymore.
Simple economic principle.
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I voted for yes, but with the proviso that there aren't any moving parts on the machine besides the wheel. Urjak did provide an example of a 1WD melty brain machine, but everything was static. There was one tooth, one wheel, and that was pretty much it.
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I didnt vote as the poll is to vague..
Melty Brain took the spotlight but remember the old 1 wheel spinner HS robots in Stock that just kind spun on the spot and charged forward when the opponent was in front of it..
There is a difference there..
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Lets hold a tournament where you use Teamviewer to actually drive the bot. Of course, only trusted members allowed.
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Lets hold a tournament where you use Teamviewer to actually drive the bot. Of course, only trusted members allowed.
Sparkey has a cool idea??????
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Lets hold a tournament where you use Teamviewer to actually drive the bot. Of course, only trusted members allowed.
Sparkey has a cool idea??????
I had thought about that but teamviewer might be laggy
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We would need some failsafes so that the computer that is hosting can immediately unhook. And it would have to be trusted members only, like sparkey said. Along with making sure that multiple people can play at once. Sounds like a good idea. :D
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I picked "yes" but I meant "no".
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We would need some failsafes so that the computer that is hosting can immediately unhook. And it would have to be trusted members only, like sparkey said. Along with making sure that multiple people can play at once. Sounds like a good idea. :D
i dont think im willing to give anyone on this site access to my computer
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I don't have that kind of trust in humans, personally.
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Same here. Maybe someone who doesn't care can be a host, and have all the people hook to their computer to battle on it.
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I would do it, but I'm afraid someone would touch my stuff.
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I voted yes. because they are funny (https://gametechmods.com/forums/Smileys/gtm/laughing-smiley.gif) and don't you want a weird bot here and there?
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I don't like them, so yes, I think they should banned
Thats just my personal oppinion though
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I think that they are just dumb excuses to stick 18 weapons on MW. Though people claim it's original, it just seems as though they want to overload bots with weapons.
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I never claimed originality nor being "fair" but people allow crawlers and these have NO wheels. Yes you can restrict their use in tourneys but just like other bots they have exploitable weaknesses (i.e. Lack of mobility) so can be beaten by the right bots. As Kill said. It's down to the host.
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Yep, in the end this is just going to be another thing for tourney hosts to put in the rules.
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I think that they are just dumb excuses to stick 18 weapons on MW. Though people claim it's original, it just seems as though they want to overload bots with weapons.
people were putting 18 weapons on mws way before the one wheeled stuff.
Heres my bot for Unkowns tournament. You might want to join it Naryar. It hasnt started yet.
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/40679macer.jpg)
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I think that they are just dumb excuses to stick 18 weapons on MW. Though people claim it's original, it just seems as though they want to overload bots with weapons.
people were putting 18 weapons on mws way before the one wheeled stuff.
Sage managed it with his rebuild of Tornado, but it was lacking in defense a little bit.
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I just realised I voted No instead of yes on the poll, as I didn't read the poll q, assuming it would be the same as the title. (http://www.chimpout.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)
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I think that they are just dumb excuses to stick 18 weapons on MW. Though people claim it's original, it just seems as though they want to overload bots with weapons.
people were putting 18 weapons on mws way before the one wheeled stuff.
Sage managed it with his rebuild of Tornado, but it was lacking in defense a little bit.
Ehh, I never really build HS so I know very little about them.
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While one wheel can be noted IRL as immobile (as someone said)
Dont forget RA2's immobile handler attempts (and unless you have sucky drive, succeeds) in keeping a one wheel robot mobile.
It also means that theoretically a 1 wheel robot is at a disadvantage from the start.
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And now here we are trying to ban something that isn't causing problems.
Look at tournaments and tell me how often WEDGES win because pretty much every tournament is hosted in open arenas. 1 wheel drive SnS is just asking to get OOTAed. Only S benefit from it because the torque counteracts the drive so it can move forward consistently.
Seen in close arena it's a whole other story.
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And now here we are trying to ban something that isn't causing problems.
The wedge guys are running scared :P
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Here, how about this: If we can adjust the AI.py of every other robot so that it drives fine once it loses a wheel (i.e. switches to melty brain) then I have no problem with one-wheeled robots.
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nothing is stopping you doing that Sage
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Except my un-knowledge.
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Like I said, only shell has the "counter torque" to make that happen. One wheel flail SnS must spin to move forward and are horrible at getting to target. They get themselves stuck to corners half the time.
So why should "wedge" be able to drive fine when single wheel SnS don't drive fine to begin with?
For shell, the only one that actually drives fine with one wheel, they can also be driven manually. You move forward by driving against the weapon, and turn by driving with the weapon. Determining which way is forward is the only hard part, but you can solve that too by using first person view.
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For shell, the only one that actually drives fine with one wheel, they can also be driven manually. You move forward by driving against the weapon, and turn by driving with the weapon. Determining which way is forward is the only hard part, but you can solve that too by using first person view.
Thats what I do..
Though I mark the chassis or have a half sheet poking out, etc to work out the front as I dont like FP view..
Its a fun challenge to drive..
I have idea's about driving the static ones too.. but the Spinner ones are easy..
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Even if Static single wheel can be driven manually in theory, it will probably be significantly worst then AI. Single wheel shell by contrast are actually not that hard to drive manually if you can get used to FP view. In fact I find them easier to drive than dual wheel ones because they can move forward far more consistently. So this whole "AI exploit" argument just doesn't hold.
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The biggest thing is you can set analog values in the PY..
If you got a Joystick or controller you could drive one no problem with some practice...
So this whole "AI exploit" argument just doesn't hold.
Yep, case closed thanks for reading everyone :mrgreen:
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One wheel bots can be driven, you can download ATOM ANT (https://gametechmods.com/Robot_Exchange/AW/ACAMS_ATOM%20ANT.bot) from the BotExchange and test drive for yourself. (Use the weapons to steer) I am against 1 wheel bots in tournaments, and especially any bot above AW