gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Sage on August 11, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
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(This whole discussion originally started at page 48 of Urjak's showcase, but it has now a new thread for discussing and keeping offtopic out of the showcase)
In real life, the wheel could be made to a perfect size and there could be a hole cut in the firestorm flipper. What's unrealistic is melty brain AI <- shouldn't be allowed. Flails are not realistic because they don't work in real life but who cares they work in ra2 so they are a legitimate weapon system. This rule is enforced by tournaments, and the tournament host has the right to declare a bot "unrealistic" or not, according to his own opinion. But people can build whatever the heck they want in their showcases. Just as there's people who build "realistic" stock bots, people can build "unrealistic" DSL bots.
I agree the general DSL realism rule is broken, but to be honest that rule should never be "enforced" in the first place.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
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It's kinda because of how broken DSL Realistic is that I like building IRL Realistic so much. But I do see it happening that even that will be pushed to the edge.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Apparently Joe could...
Or so he said somewhere :P
I just like building in DSL because it's fairly realistic.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Correct. And if you say you can as well as melty brain does, you're kidding yourself.
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I see your point, but as a counter argument the fact remains that melty brain technology actually exists IRL.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Correct. And if you say you can as well as melty brain does, you're kidding yourself.
Can a human fire weapons when the enemy gets on a certain zone ? Not as precisely as a smartzone can do.
Can a human drive straight ? Not as precisely as a finely tuned AI can do.
Can a human turn a certain angle to face it's opponent ? Not as precisely as a finely tuned AI can do.
Can a human try and emulate Melty Brain ? And again, not as precisely as an AI can do.
Therefore, your argument is invalid, wizard. And if we continue in your reasoning, we should just get rid of AI cause it's "unrealistic" and more precise than human driving, changing the game forever.
By the way AI-controlled combat robots (real robots, not just remotes) have been entered in Battlebots. The fact that they failed is something else, but you can't say it's unrealistic.
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What's the main reason we use AI in the first place though?
Because online play is too laggy, and it's the best way to run tournaments.
AI is used because of convenience NOT to give certain kinds of bots an advantage, that, I don't agree with.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Correct. And if you say you can as well as melty brain does, you're kidding yourself.
Can a human fire weapons when the enemy gets on a certain zone ? Not as precisely as a smartzone can do. With practice, easily.
Can a human drive straight ? Not as precisely as a finely tuned AI can do. That depends on the bot not the driver.
Can a human turn a certain angle to face it's opponent ? Not as precisely as a finely tuned AI can do. With practice, you can get good at turning your robot.
Can a human try and emulate Melty Brain ? And again, not as precisely as an AI can do. EXACTLY. But a human can't even get CLOSE to melty brain.
Therefore, your argument is invalid, wizard. And if we continue in your reasoning, we should just get rid of AI cause it's "unrealistic" and more precise than human driving, changing the game forever. Even if it's more "precise" it's still within the realm of possibility for a human to do it. Melty brain is impossible.
By the way AI-controlled combat robots (real robots, not just remotes) have been entered in Battlebots. The fact that they failed is something else, but you can't say it's unrealistic. I'm not saying ANYTHING about realism here, nary. I'm saying that melty brain is crap and shouldn't be allowed.
I see your point, but as a counter argument the fact remains that melty brain technology actually exists IRL.
Vids please. Also, I don't care about IRL or not. I'm talking about in game.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Correct. And if you say you can as well as melty brain does, you're kidding yourself.
Not if you are talking about shell spinner. Driving forward with counter torque means you just have to hold foward!!! Surprise surprise. The only thing you have to get used to is the first person view. After that it's fine. Driving a Melty Brain Sheck is actually easier than a 2 wheel Sheck.
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Vids please. Also, I don't care about IRL or not. I'm talking about in game.
Vids of Meltybrain IRL, do you mean?
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It is possible to imitate Melty Brain under human control, you just need some very, very good timing. I can post a vid of myself giving it a try if you're interested.
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I don't see why people are all disproving of one wheel designs. Its not like they offer a massive advantage, they just allow for SS to have a few more weapons and some better bottom protection to give them a better chance at beating popups, which are more "cheap" than any shell spinner.
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I don't see why people are all disproving of one wheel designs. Its not like they offer a massive advantage, they just allow for SS to have a few more weapons and some better bottom protection to give them a better chance at beating popups, which are more "cheap" than any shell spinner.
This.
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Correct. And if you say you can as well as melty brain does, you're kidding yourself.
Not if you are talking about shell spinner. Driving forward with counter torque means you just have to hold foward!!! Surprise surprise. The only thing you have to get used to is the first person view. After that it's fine. Driving a Melty Brain Sheck is actually easier than a 2 wheel Sheck.
Good, now we don't have to use melty brain on one wheeled bots. So now the only thing to use it on is SnS and FBS and whatever, which would be interesting to see someone try.
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If the moderators Have the "Split" function, they could seperate this discussion into a new thread.
The fact we've gone from talking about the realistic rule to "is meltybrain realistic?" is a prime example of that.
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I will split the topic right now, 'cause it is indeed becoming off-topic.
EDIT: Done, has been moved to DSL TC discussion
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Why is Melty Brain unrealistic in your opinion Sage? Because a human couldn't do it in RA2?
Correct. And if you say you can as well as melty brain does, you're kidding yourself.
Not if you are talking about shell spinner. Driving forward with counter torque means you just have to hold foward!!! Surprise surprise. The only thing you have to get used to is the first person view. After that it's fine. Driving a Melty Brain Sheck is actually easier than a 2 wheel Sheck.
Good, now we don't have to use melty brain on one wheeled bots. So now the only thing to use it on is SnS and FBS and whatever, which would be interesting to see someone try.
No, you still need FBS set to about 0.1 spin or something. It can't really "turn" like a normal bot and can only turn at the same direction as the motor torque. This is basically telling the bot to "hold forward unless the alignment isn't correct". If you look careful you will notice that the base doesn't actually spin on a FS unless it is turning.
Again, actually pretty easy for a real person,. Just let the torque spin you til u spot enemy bot, then hold forward.
That said, I think Naryar got a good point though. Why should "I" have to drive it to be consider realistic, when it exists in real life?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2n7XEmDMCo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2n7XEmDMCo#ws)
Hell this guy drives a single wheel FBS better than the FBS.PY can.
Here's a video showing how Melty Brain works in real life, as the author mention u can do this with just 1 wheel as well. Once properly calibrated, anyone can drive it just fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy5TPhrE4Nw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy5TPhrE4Nw#)
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Wow, that's cool.
But I was never talking about "realism" guys. The only real problem I have with melty brain is that if online tournaments were lag-free, there probably would be no AI tournaments. And in RA2, you can't "properly calibrate" a bot so that melty brain works with a human controller.
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Wow, that's cool.
But I was never talking about "realism" guys. The only real problem I have with melty brain is that if online tournaments were lag-free, there probably would be no AI tournaments. And in RA2, you can't "properly calibrate" a bot so that melty brain works with a human controller.
With serge's RA2 haxxorz, perhaps he could look at the RA2's online component?
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That'd be the best thing to happen to RA2 since it was made.
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since we are talking about so many things, I've put all my subjective opinions on AI, arenas and the comminity in this thread here:
https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php/topic,7976.new.html (https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php/topic,7976.new.html)
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Nothing is stopping someone from making controllers that will automatically press forward at the right times. There are plenty of programs out there that can use timers for key presses or look up data inside of a text file (for turn speed or even the heading). Its just that the AI already has everything coded.
When we use AI vs AI, it doesn't matter how precise things are because both bots have the same capabilities (you could always make a smarter AI).
When we do human vs AI, its only fair that the AI has some advantages over the human player (since we generally have an advantage when it comes to flanking, targeting specific components, or waiting for the right times to attack).
The issue here is not that Melty Brain is unrealistic (as the topic name suggests) but that it is unfair/unbalanced (as Sage has repeatedly pointed out). Then again, the same could be said about a majority of RA2's more optimized designs (flails, popups, crawlers, etc.). Melty Brain just happens to strengthen an already powerful AI type. Though if this was the issue, you could just as easily make a smarter AI for some other AI type.
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I say: don`t let you limit by some stupid rules. Post in your showcase whatever you want. I used cheatparts on my latest bots and noone cared. Some people will not like it an may start crying but limiting building could prevent the discovery of different things.
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This makes no sence.. I cant even follow this topic..
What's unrealistic is melty brain AI <- shouldn't be allowed.
But I was never talking about "realism" guys. The only real problem I have with melty brain is that if online tournaments were lag-free, there probably would be no AI tournaments. And in RA2, you can't "properly calibrate" a bot so that melty brain works with a human controller.
Are you just trying whatever you can to get rid or it or what?
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IMO, Melty Brain works ALOT better IRL than in RA2 form from what I can tell from the guy's videos. Also, you can't end a severe tactic in RA2 called Strategy, this thread should be locked.
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This makes no sence.. I cant even follow this topic..
What's unrealistic is melty brain AI <- shouldn't be allowed.
But I was never talking about "realism" guys. The only real problem I have with melty brain is that if online tournaments were lag-free, there probably would be no AI tournaments. And in RA2, you can't "properly calibrate" a bot so that melty brain works with a human controller.
Are you just trying whatever you can to get rid or it or what?
Sorry, that was my mishap in words. I was talking about realism in the other parts of the paragraph that I didn't notice it was out of context with melty brain.