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Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: russian roulette on December 02, 2011, 08:45:44 PM

Title: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: russian roulette on December 02, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
I believe we should have strict guidelines just like in real world bot building but for the IRL building style of DSL.
For now this would be for suggestions and I'll edit it once I am satisfied.


Building Rule Ideas:
Be my guest to request change in the rules or even add rules.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on December 03, 2011, 06:42:32 AM
Face Spinners exist IRL
Door Hinge wedges are fine in certain places.
Sponsors are not part of Combat Robotics much anymore.
SnSs can act like a whipper rather than melty-brain
Burst motors are in n way connected to pistons, the are 100% electronic, Co2 is only valid in pistons.
Shuffler/walker must be defined. Along with "crawlers" (e.g. Saw Point IRL).
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Clickbeetle on December 03, 2011, 01:30:34 PM
I saw this thread and I immediately thought "Uh-oh, 20-page controversy bordering on flamewar ahead".
 
I'd comment on your rules but I don't see the point as everyone is just going to start arguing and posting their own rule ideas shortly.
 
Basically I think IRL building rules should be as "loose" as possible... you look at a bot and it's either IRL or it's not.  You can't objectify that with rules.  As soon as you start relying on standard IRL building codes, you'll get bots that meet the rules but still don't really look IRL, and bots that miss one or two rules but are clearly realistic.
 
If we did develop more objective IRL rules, I think they should focus more on limiting competitiveness than on ensuring realism.  For example, caps on total weapon weight and restrictions on wedge use.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: russian roulette on December 03, 2011, 03:02:11 PM
I saw this thread and I immediately thought "Uh-oh, 20-page controversy bordering on flamewar ahead".
 
I'd comment on your rules but I don't see the point as everyone is just going to start arguing and posting their own rule ideas shortly.
 
Basically I think IRL building rules should be as "loose" as possible... you look at a bot and it's either IRL or it's not.  You can't objectify that with rules.  As soon as you start relying on standard IRL building codes, you'll get bots that meet the rules but still don't really look IRL, and bots that miss one or two rules but are clearly realistic.
 
If we did develop more objective IRL rules, I think they should focus more on limiting competitiveness than on ensuring realism.  For example, caps on total weapon weight and restrictions on wedge use.
That seems fair enough, just suggesting the idea.

Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: smashysmashy on December 03, 2011, 03:06:38 PM
Quote
Robots cannot start with their weapons on the ground (flippers are an exception)

Why this rule, by the way? Curiosity, mainly.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Jack Daniels on December 03, 2011, 04:03:55 PM
Rules suck with this game because the community is too damn savvy and smart.   :gawe:

But really, if you set defined rules... then some people will still exploit them to the max in the name of winning.  (as usual)

The voting system is really the only way that could push people in the right direction for IRL building.

Example:
Host starts an IRL tourney and offers to accept a max of 24 bots.
A nice high quality splash is posted with all bots showing outside and insides. Actual Builders are kept secret.
Community (or just people that entered the tourney) vote for the 16 bots that are the most IRL suitable.
New splash is produced with the 16 competitors and their builders listed with them.
Tourney starts.

I'm pretty sure that the voting system would result in a lot of defensive Bawwwwwing, but it sure would weed out a lot of the bots that exploit the spirit of the IRL style.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Thyrus on December 03, 2011, 04:07:20 PM
I prefer what jd said
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: NFX on December 03, 2011, 04:21:13 PM
I think a community vote is probably the best solution we could come up with, short of the tournament host being able to reject bots that they deem unrealistic. The problem with that is that people have differing views on what's realistic and what isn't, and what is deemed perfectly IRL by some might be rejected by the host, and vice versa. We can't really put hard and fast guidelines on what makes IRL building, because people will just exploit them for the sake of victory, as has already been mentioned. If you're building in IRL style, then my view is that you should place aesthetics before efficiency and combat effectiveness, and not the other way around.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: smashysmashy on December 03, 2011, 05:24:39 PM
If you're building in IRL style, then my view is that you should place aesthetics before efficiency and combat effectiveness, and not the other way around.
This.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Pwnator on December 04, 2011, 12:07:56 AM
Dude, it's just common sense. Anyone can differentiate between this:

(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/93230peanut.PNG)

and this:

(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/73811darkstriker.PNG)
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: nicsan2009 on December 04, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
There is no real guidelines but it is just like common sense like pwnator said
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: 123savethewhales on December 05, 2011, 08:45:38 PM
If IRL tournament is 50% vote/50% combat, then ppl won't spend all their time trying to make it combat effective.

Encourage realism by making realism pay.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Dexterhunter on December 05, 2011, 09:13:18 PM
Its all common sense. I now suggest we all lock this thread before 123svethewhales begins politicking all over the place.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Jack Daniels on December 06, 2011, 04:24:20 AM
I am afraid the "common sense" argument is invalid.

1: A good portion of GTM members do not have any common sense.

2: New members are not going to know any better unless they are guided or educated.  The "common sense" in relation to IRL bot building will be completely foreign to them.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: MikeNCR on December 06, 2011, 01:05:27 PM
I think an easy "rule" would be that you should be able to find a similar weapon/drive/chassis/etc... setup on a real combat bot with picture or video evidence. The robot wouldn't need to match entirely, simply proof that any particular mechanism is at least probable, independent of the other mechanisms.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Unreal on February 27, 2012, 04:48:28 AM
I think if bots had to have the correct amps for the motors they use then that will do alot for realism. If you have to consider the weight of the batteries you will realistically need it makes the bots tend to come out more realistic.

Maybe an overall upper weight limit of about 800kg would be good?
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: NFX on February 27, 2012, 04:54:49 AM
That's a heavyweight in the game anyway. If you've come from a realistic robotics background, the physics in RA2 is hideously counter-intuitive. But once you understand it, you can make some pretty cool designs. Personally, I've never been too bothered about battery power, but I always make a point of overpowering my bots slightly to make them last, like Valid Query 2 did. Although the internals of some IRL bots are forced to be unrealistic by vitrue of the game mechanics, i.e. Ring Spinners, and the newer motor-on-top designs like Frequency and the one MikeNCR made.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Unreal on February 27, 2012, 05:25:22 AM
Yeah, but despite all of its many many faults RA2 is probably one of the most addictive games I've ever played, on the addictivometer its right up with RDR and [Open] Transport Tycoon :D I think I have to try to think from inside the game rather than outside. All things are equal if its the same for all in the game aren't they.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Tweedy on February 27, 2012, 11:23:47 AM
i think that restricting irl to a certain set of rules apart from it being realistic would make it alot harder to build and would restrict the ammount of designs that you could build irl, and whether a bot is irl enough to enter an irl tournament should be up to the organizer
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Scorpion on February 27, 2012, 11:29:47 AM
Really? You guys need rules for something completely subjective?
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Naryar on February 28, 2012, 04:27:05 AM
Really? You guys need rules for something completely subjective?

we're trying to make it objective.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Scorpion on February 28, 2012, 11:06:10 AM
Really? You guys need rules for something completely subjective?

we're trying to make it objective.
Is aesthetics not the main goal of making an IRL bot?
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: NFX on February 28, 2012, 12:16:00 PM
In my view, yes it is. However, there are still a few who will enter a substandard DSL bot in an effort to chalk up a free tournament win to their name. Plus, giving the tournament host the ability to decide which bots fit the realistic rule will cause problems with members whose views on IRL don't match, similar to Pretyor in Jonzu's recent Stock Tournament. Personally, Metal Hinges and Halfsheets on the underside aren't IRL, and neither are exposed motors or axles without sufficient extender "supports" around them.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: LiNcK on February 29, 2012, 01:45:26 PM
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/73811darkstriker.PNG)


The thing is, I can add 2 hammers on each side & Maybe it will still be considered realistic.
The bot with 2 hammers will probz murder that bot up there...


There should be IRL rules so you actually build the best IRL bot you can & Not the worst DSL bot you can :P


Really? You guys need rules for something completely subjective?

we're trying to make it objective.
Is aesthetics not the main goal of making an IRL bot?
 


Maybe it is, But tournaments are still fighting tournaments so technically it isnt. If the most aesthetically pleasing bot looses against another bot, That other bot is the better IRL bot :P
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Unreal on March 01, 2012, 03:18:42 PM
Well I have been told I make 'IRL' bots. When I started playing Robot Arena and downloaded the DSL I just built bots I thought would be good on Robot Wars etc. Its not an intentional thing its just a preference. I don't see the creativity in building something with 19 hammers and 75 ant batteries stacked on top of each other in a case 2.5 inches square, with 200kg Perm motors on 100 cm extenders. For me the real challenge is building a bot as realistically as you can, and trying to make the best bot you can, as realistically as you can.


Everyone can do what they like, I just think there is room for truely realistic (as much as the game allows) robot building as well as DSL realism and other styles. I just wish there were more realistic bots in the game that's my only gripe.


I am seriously considering only building MW/LW robots as they seem to me to be the closest to what a heavyweight bot would be capable of in robot wars.


In any case, I now hold myself to the following realism rules when building a bot:


1. All motors must be either inside or directly connected to the chassis or case of the robot.
2. No stacking or cheat building.
3. I also think sticking to MW maximum weight is a good idea, as it makes people build around a primary weapon which is usually what happens in real life. So for example if you want a REALLY powerful axe, or speed, you have to have only one, and might have to sacrifice performance in other areas so I think I will stick to that.


Rant over :)
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: LiNcK on March 04, 2012, 12:02:25 PM
1. All motors must be either inside or directly connected to the chassis or case of the robot.
2. No stacking or cheat building.
3. I also think sticking to MW maximum weight is a good idea, as it makes people build around a primary weapon which is usually what happens in real life. So for example if you want a REALLY powerful axe, or speed, you have to have only one, and might have to sacrifice performance in other areas so I think I will stick to that.


Arent those DSL rules really? I mean,
1. Most people already put their drive inside the chassis, There are a few exceptions but most bots have the drives on the chassis :P
2. Stacking is not allowed in DSL, And IDK what you mean by cheat building, But in DSL cheatbot2 parts arent allowed & Stuff.
3. You mean that the max weight should be MW? Seems good, But then there would be no HW fights :P


I personally think it would be better if we rebalanced the weapons for IRL building. Something like DSL3 is doing right now, Boost the heavy weapons' stats so they are more used.
Nerf down razor tips & Other small weapons, They should be used as backup weapons (In the back/side orso) & Not the main weapon.
The main weapon should be 1/2 axes, 1/2 maces & Such things... A DSL bar equivalent (It should do damage though) and THEN you have a few spikes on the chassis as backup.


Just make the heavy weapons very powerful & The smaller ones very weak. What happens when a hammer hits a small spike? The spike breaks.
It would be better to put 1 hammer than 20 spikes on your bot then :3
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Jack Daniels on March 04, 2012, 01:14:30 PM
Winning is also subjective to some as well.

I feel like a winner when I build a bot that fails at a tournament but people compliment how awesome it looks.   ;D

Different strokes for different folks.

"Here the cheat... have a trophy."
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Unreal on March 04, 2012, 01:23:25 PM
1. All motors must be either inside or directly connected to the chassis or case of the robot.
2. No stacking or cheat building.
3. I also think sticking to MW maximum weight is a good idea, as it makes people build around a primary weapon which is usually what happens in real life. So for example if you want a REALLY powerful axe, or speed, you have to have only one, and might have to sacrifice performance in other areas so I think I will stick to that.


Arent those DSL rules really? I mean,
1. Most people already put their drive inside the chassis, There are a few exceptions but most bots have the drives on the chassis :P
2. Stacking is not allowed in DSL, And IDK what you mean by cheat building, But in DSL cheatbot2 parts arent allowed & Stuff.
3. You mean that the max weight should be MW? Seems good, But then there would be no HW fights :P


I personally think it would be better if we rebalanced the weapons for IRL building. Something like DSL3 is doing right now, Boost the heavy weapons' stats so they are more used.
Nerf down razor tips & Other small weapons, They should be used as backup weapons (In the back/side orso) & Not the main weapon.
The main weapon should be 1/2 axes, 1/2 maces & Such things... A DSL bar equivalent (It should do damage though) and THEN you have a few spikes on the chassis as backup.


Just make the heavy weapons very powerful & The smaller ones very weak. What happens when a hammer hits a small spike? The spike breaks.
It would be better to put 1 hammer than 20 spikes on your bot then :3


I just think the overall balance of combat in the game isn't quite right, and I think it stems A from the combat mechanics and B from how the bots are built. I agree that some weapons cause more damage than they should, for example the panic attack lifting arms don't really apply much force at all, yet if they just glance your bot slightly they cause alot of damage, same goes for iron spikes such as critical emergency. There are also some bots that just do not take damage. For example I put Firestorm in the crushers in the compressor arena, was in there for a good two minutes but suffered no damage, and its shell wasn't even bent at all. That sort of thing needs to be addressed. Most of the replica bots actually seem to be the most balanced though. If the rest were modified to behave more like the replicas then we may be on to a winner.


Also the spinner bots are probably the RA equivalent of people who spend all game camping in UT. If everyone built them this game would be dead. Probably should ban them or have only a couple and no more. I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to build them and showcase them, but probably not good as AI bots.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Tweedy on March 04, 2012, 01:25:28 PM
it didn't bend because the whole of firestorms shell is made of components and they don't bend they simply fall off
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Unreal on March 04, 2012, 01:26:07 PM
They didn't fall off either. Which is same bad.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: MikeNCR on May 16, 2012, 05:05:39 PM
I've been seeing a fair bit of discussion about whether or not a particular battery setup is IRL and thought this would be the place to weigh in on it-

In Nyx, I use a 1lb battery to power 3 fairly powerful motors in a 30lb robot, though one is intermittent use.

that works out to 3.333% of the weight of the robot being battery. In the case of a RA2 LW, that means roughly 8.33lbs should be battery for an equivalent drive/weapon system, which in the case of Nyx, has enough battery for two full matches before needing a recharge while using the equivalent of 1.3 ants for the whole system.

In the case of Moros, I use ~2lbs of batteries, so 16.5lbs for two drive motors and 1 weapon motor, however in this case as well, I have far more battery than I need in Moros, but even then, it would still only use the equivalent of 2.5 ants for three motors.

Real world battery technology has blown right by the "capacity" ratings in DSL, and I think if you  really want to set hard "capacity" rules, it should be more weight percentage based than number of cell based. If a real world robot is using more than about 5% of their weight for batteries most of the time they've either got an insane weapon system or old battery technology.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: 123savethewhales on May 16, 2012, 06:06:55 PM
What about the size?  Does batteries in a modern HW bot takes the battery space of about 4 ants in DSL?

I think chassis size, not weight, is the biggest problem between a real bot and a dsl 1x1.5 chassis bot.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: SKBT on May 16, 2012, 06:10:16 PM
Adding to this... In Phoenix, I'm running a battery about 1/2 the capability and weight of Nyx's, and I get about 2 fights out of it, and it's roughly the size of a deck of cards.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: 123savethewhales on May 16, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Tweedy on May 16, 2012, 06:35:24 PM
I would love a mod like this so it would give a more IRL feel to the game and also I think mike and skbt are right because the weight of batteries in modern roboreams quite low now because of new technologies and better mechanics
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: NFX on May 16, 2012, 06:43:28 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?

Sounds pretty good to me. If it were possible to do something about the "lots of weapons at the same time do more damage than one" thing that RA2 does, that would also be fantastic, but since it's part of the .exe, it's just a pipedream for now.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: 123savethewhales on May 16, 2012, 07:07:30 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?

Sounds pretty good to me. If it were possible to do something about the "lots of weapons at the same time do more damage than one" thing that RA2 does, that would also be fantastic, but since it's part of the .exe, it's just a pipedream for now.
Should just ban weapon stacking.....  You can still line them accross sure, but you are not going to have 7 razor tips in a tiny stack.  Not like popups or flail SnS would work to begin with when all damage are concussion.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Mr. AS on May 16, 2012, 07:09:02 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?

Sounds pretty good to me. If it were possible to do something about the "lots of weapons at the same time do more damage than one" thing that RA2 does, that would also be fantastic, but since it's part of the .exe, it's just a pipedream for now.
Should just ban weapon stacking.....
but thatll just bring up the "olol weld rule" excuse
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: 123savethewhales on May 16, 2012, 07:12:46 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?

Sounds pretty good to me. If it were possible to do something about the "lots of weapons at the same time do more damage than one" thing that RA2 does, that would also be fantastic, but since it's part of the .exe, it's just a pipedream for now.
Should just ban weapon stacking.....
but thatll just bring up the "olol weld rule" excuse
DSL enforce no stacking in alot of things (ex batteries, motors).  What part of no weapons stack is harder to understand than the rest?
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: Mr. AS on May 16, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?

Sounds pretty good to me. If it were possible to do something about the "lots of weapons at the same time do more damage than one" thing that RA2 does, that would also be fantastic, but since it's part of the .exe, it's just a pipedream for now.
Should just ban weapon stacking.....
but thatll just bring up the "olol weld rule" excuse
DSL enforce no stacking in alot of things (ex batteries, motors).  What part of no weapons can share the same collision box with another weapon is hard to understand?
the part that made everyone start making stacked flippers popups and hs apparently
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: NFX on May 16, 2012, 07:18:27 PM
Humm maybe the solution is to significantly increase the hitpoints for chassis armor while decreasing the HP of motors, so ppl have incentive to actually keep them inside the chassis.

Also maybe converting all weapons into concussion, which will block off bot types like "SnS" and "Popups".  Damage will be much more momentum based like in real robot combats, not thousands of little spikes scrapping the target.

What do you guys think?  Would you guys like a mod like that?

Sounds pretty good to me. If it were possible to do something about the "lots of weapons at the same time do more damage than one" thing that RA2 does, that would also be fantastic, but since it's part of the .exe, it's just a pipedream for now.
Should just ban weapon stacking.....
but thatll just bring up the "olol weld rule" excuse
DSL enforce no stacking in alot of things (ex batteries, motors).  What part of no weapons can share the same collision box with another weapon is hard to understand?

I was thinking more along the lines of the rammers you see with a bunch of razors on the front and not much else. The weapons are still going to do amplified damage, even if they comply to the DSL no stacking rule.
Title: Re: DSL IRL Building Guideline Suggestions
Post by: 123savethewhales on May 16, 2012, 07:23:46 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of the rammers you see with a bunch of razors on the front and not much else. The weapons are still going to do amplified damage, even if they comply to the DSL no stacking rule.
Easy fix, make heavy weapon more efficient than light weapons.

A lot of the abuse now comes from Razor Tips and DS Light being Razor Tips and DS Light, while sledge hammer has crappy 300 dp and no additional efficiency.  You make the hammer have 500 dp while retaining it's HP, and all of a sudden heavy weapon becomes a lot more appealing.