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Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: FOTEPX on March 28, 2018, 06:47:28 PM

Title: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: FOTEPX on March 28, 2018, 06:47:28 PM
It occurred to me last night that the weight and hitpoints of hollowed out DSL Discs doesn't correlate with the amount of mass the metal actually takes up, so what with DSL 2.2 being very picky about it's weight/HP distribution (:vista:), I figured I'd crunch the numbers and produce a table of what the results should be. Here they are:


Assuming that the blue armour in DSL armoured discs is 50% the thickness/strength, as is implied with their current stats, to work them out, what you'd need to do is calculate the difference between full and hollowed disc, divide that by 2, and add that to the pixel density of the hollowed disc and re-do the maths to get the correct calculations. If every disc had 0.5X the mass of their full disc counterparts, then there would be no need for this, but as you can see... it isn't.

A few thoughts on this, personally:

If this does get implemented in DSL 2.3, or another mod pack, it shifts the meta quite considerably. Not only does it make your common 150CM shell spinner a lot more vulnerable, it also - in some cases - would greatly highlight the need for armoured or full discs. Also the weight drop would make 200cm and 250cm DSL discs a lot more viable, seeing as they very rarely get used in modern DSL.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: FOTEPX on June 20, 2018, 12:06:54 PM
Bumping & DP'ing to ask if this should be implemented in CE:

https://www.strawpoll.me/15933626
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: Badger on June 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Faulty logic. Mass doesn't scale 1:1 with strength.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: FOTEPX on June 20, 2018, 12:10:39 PM
Quote from: Badger on June 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Faulty logic. Mass doesn't scale linearly with strength.

On the contrary, when's the last time anybody used the 200cm or 250cm discs? This edit would make them at least viable.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: Philippa on June 20, 2018, 12:14:09 PM
Quote from: FOTEPX on June 20, 2018, 12:10:39 PM
Quote from: Badger on June 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Faulty logic. Mass doesn't scale linearly with strength.

On the contrary, when's the last time anybody used the 200cm or 250cm discs? This edit would make them at least viable.
Shell spinners, probably. Also, Ejector used one in MOD2.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: FOTEPX on June 20, 2018, 12:34:30 PM
Quote from: Philippa on June 20, 2018, 12:14:09 PM
Quote from: FOTEPX on June 20, 2018, 12:10:39 PM
Quote from: Badger on June 20, 2018, 12:09:18 PM
Faulty logic. Mass doesn't scale linearly with strength.

On the contrary, when's the last time anybody used the 200cm or 250cm discs? This edit would make them at least viable.
Shell spinners, probably. Also, Ejector used one in MOD2.

Shell spinners only use 100 or 150cm - very, VERY rarely 200cm, and I've actually never seen a 250CM disc be used, like, ever.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
I was aware of this while working on DSL 2.2, but I didn't know any easy way to calculate how much the hollow discs should actually weigh.  I think I did pretty well with my estimates though, at least for the smaller ones.  (75 vs. 90 kg for the 250cm is a pretty big deal, I will admit.)

The thing your calculation overlooks however, is how much the solid discs should actually weigh.  Compared to the weight of the other DSL discs (the silver ones), they should be far, far heavier than they are.  It's more like the solid discs are underweight, not the hollow discs that are overweight.  But I wisely decided to ignore this because giving the large discs realistic weights would make them completely unusable.  We'll just have to let Physics go cry in a corner in this area for game balance purposes.

The fact that the 200-250cm discs are rarely used probably has more to do with the relative size of the other components than any balance issues.  Bots can be made so compact that there is no need for such large discs.  If was re-designing DSL from scratch, I would make all the motors slightly bigger to force less compact designs.

Side note: This makes me appreciate just how crazy Nightmare's design is, and why Jim had to cut out large sections of the disc for the 2015 BB season.  That disc has to weigh a LOT.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: TheRoboteer on July 01, 2018, 05:31:44 PM
Quote from: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
If was re-designing DSL from scratch, I would make all the motors slightly bigger to force less compact designs.
Hmm. Just out of interest why don't you want people making compact designs? I know a fair few people ATM wish most of the motors were actually SMALLER from conversations that have been going on in the discord lately. I'm not in that camp personally but I think I'm in the minority in that area, and I'm interested to hear your take on it.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: FOTEPX on July 01, 2018, 05:33:58 PM
Quote from: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
I was aware of this while working on DSL 2.2, but I didn't know any easy way to calculate how much the hollow discs should actually weigh.  I think I did pretty well with my estimates though, at least for the smaller ones.  (75 vs. 90 kg for the 250cm is a pretty big deal, I will admit.)

Yeah, the weight for the 100cm disc is pretty much spot-on, I'd say. It's the higher-up weights where we start running into question marks.

Quote from: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
The thing your calculation overlooks however, is how much the solid discs should actually weigh.  Compared to the weight of the other DSL discs (the silver ones), they should be far, far heavier than they are.  It's more like the solid discs are underweight, not the hollow discs that are overweight.  But I wisely decided to ignore this because giving the large discs realistic weights would make them completely unusable.  We'll just have to let Physics go cry in a corner in this area for game balance purposes.

Mm. Yeah, it was a pretty hairbrained idea - I came up with it late at night when I couldn't sleep once, so it's not the most scientifically accurate of things. xD Even with that being said, 200 and 250cm's are very rarely used. Okay, there's exceptions, but they're definitely not meta, and I think that's a shame. Where are my crazy Nightmare-style VS' at? Nowhere, 'cuz the discs weigh too much. Go on, show 'em some love!

Quote from: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:24:23 PM
The fact that the 200-250cm discs are rarely used probably has more to do with the relative size of the other components than any balance issues.  Bots can be made so compact that there is no need for such large discs.  If was re-designing DSL from scratch, I would make all the motors slightly bigger to force less compact designs.

That's true, actually. Hell, it's the main reason why HW shell spinners stick to 150 - it's a size thing. Still, even with -that- in mind, I think you could try to push the pendulum a bit. the 200cm and 250cm discs in DSL are like the PP-Bizon in CS:GO; viable, but only in very rare circumstances. I'm wanting to increase those amount of circumstances. Heck, maybe even keep the current balance of 100cm and 150cm. But, no doubt, 200 and 250 could be shown some love.
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:58:33 PM
Quote from: FOTEPX on July 01, 2018, 05:33:58 PM
Where are my crazy Nightmare-style VS' at? Nowhere, 'cuz the discs weigh too much. Go on, show 'em some love!

Did I ever post this thing?  It's not skinned and it's still 50kg underweight, so I don't think I did.

(http://beetlebros.gametechmods.com/images/ra2bots/ephialtes.png)
Title: Re: DSL Disc Weight/Hitpoint Discrepancies
Post by: FOTEPX on July 01, 2018, 06:10:31 PM
Quote from: Clickbeetle on July 01, 2018, 05:58:33 PM
Quote from: FOTEPX on July 01, 2018, 05:33:58 PM
Where are my crazy Nightmare-style VS' at? Nowhere, 'cuz the discs weigh too much. Go on, show 'em some love!

Did I ever post this thing?  It's not skinned and it's still 50kg underweight, so I don't think I did.

(http://beetlebros.gametechmods.com/images/ra2bots/ephialtes.png)

It's new to me, and I bloody love it.
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