DEBATE: Crawlers in Tournaments.

[System32]

Judge: Urjak
 
For: Sage
 
Against: Naryar
 
May the discussion begin.
 
NO COMMENTS ON THIS DISCUSSION THREAD. TALK IN THE MAIN ONE ONLY!.

[Naryar]

First, crawlers use wheels as weapons so they can dedicate most of their weight into weapons, so they basically outweapon nearly all other robot types excepted if you build a Dark July type rammer, and it's not even sure DJ would win against Bumble Bee - and that means, if well built, they are practically near-invulnerable to most types of bots in a closed arena.

[Sage]

First, crawlers use wheels as weapons so they can dedicate most of their weight into weapons, so they basically outweapon nearly all other robot types excepted if you build a Dark July type rammer, and it's not even sure DJ would win against Bumble Bee - and that means, if well built, they are practically near-invulnerable to most types of bots          

First things first, this debate is about crawlers. Bumble Bee is only one example. A normal crawler (such as the ACME Brick) is much less deadly. They are slow and usually have an open stomach for popups to eat. The spinning crawler design (Bumble Bee), is, yes, almost invincible in a closed arena. But that's almost. Roboshark does have a screenshot of his bot R4 beating his Bumble Bee clone (which is an exact replica).

But that's just in a closed arena. We all know how low walls are a huge bane to crawlers, and we've seen it time and time again in BBEANS5.

You said "... so they basically outweapon nearly all other robot types ..."
This is true. But why is this relevant? A well built popup with only 6 razors can take down a well built HS with 36 maces. Thats a 30 weapon difference, but the popup still won.

To answer the question, there is nothing illegal about them, they are not invincible, and spinning crawlers require special AI for controlled movement.

Crawlers should be allowed in tournaments. Theres no rule that says the good bot types can't enter. When the 36HS first came out, nothing could stand against it. That doesn't mean it couldn't be entered in tournaments does it?

Using spikes as wheels sacrifices speed and control. A spinning crawler is much like an SnS. SnS use their wheels to spin their weapon, and just wait for the other bot to come to them. What makes crawlers so different? If the only reason that crawlers should not be in tournaments is because they are too good, then your argument is invalid.

[Naryar]

Well if crawlers are legal and will be entered into tournaments... most people would want their bot to be able to beat a crawler.

What other robot type is specifically designed to beat crawlers? Not a HS neither a rammer, for sure. A popup is able to beat an average crawler like the SCv3 ones, but has low chances against a killer one. I am not taking hazards into account here.

The only real robot type i can see beating a crawler is a VS, but only in an arena with walls. In a closed arena, a good crawler would most likely own everything, and there will be probably a few crawlers in the tournament, so it'll end with crawlers as finalists.

So what are builders going to build against a crawler ? Another crawler ? Do you want a tournament with half of the entries crawlers ?

And about the out-weaponing, yes it is relevant. HS make most of their damage in a circle but horizontally, they do much less damage to an opponent under them.that is why they get beaten by popups if the popup can get under. However, crawlers can do damage to every single direction.

[Sage]

Well if crawlers are legal and will be entered into tournaments... most people would want their bot to be able to beat a crawler.

Yes. Just like any other type of bot.

What other robot type is specifically designed to beat crawlers? Not a HS neither a rammer, for sure. A popup is able to beat an average crawler like the SCv3 ones, but has low chances against a killer one. I am not taking hazards into account here.

Why MUST there be a specific bot to beat crawlers? Are you mad at crawlers because they don't fit into your perfect little RA2 rock-paper-scissors triangle? "Because an HS always beats a VS, something must always beat a crawler." No.

The only real robot type i can see beating a crawler is a VS, but only in an arena with walls. In a closed arena, a good crawler would most likely own everything, and there will be probably a few crawlers in the tournament, so it'll end with crawlers as finalists.

So...?

So what are builders going to build against a crawler ? Another crawler ? Do you want a tournament with half of the entries crawlers ?

What's so bad about crawler vs crawler? If they both have controlled movement it could actually be a very interesting match. There will be many different crawler designs just like there are HS designs.

And about the out-weaponing, yes it is relevant. HS make most of their damage in a circle but horizontally, they do much less damage to an opponent under them. that is why they get beaten by popups if the popup can get under. However, crawlers can do damage to every single direction.

Crawlers can do damage in every single direction. But that means one direction will be weaker than it would be if you focused all the firepower on that direction. If that happens, then a single direction focused HS will be able to take out that part of the crawler. Its all about how the weapons are spread out.


It seems your focus of this particular argument was the personal opinion that matches will be boring with crawlers in them. You base your whole argument on that without any real proof. "Do you want a tourney where half the entries are crawlers?" Why not, I ask? Half the tourneys already have HS, but no one complains.


Last thing. "A popup is able to beat an average crawler like the SCv3 ones, but has low chances against a killer one."

This rule applies to EVERY bot type in tournaments, not just crawlers. Not everyone can build a killer crawler, just like not everyone can build a superb HS or popup. There would only be may be 1 or 2 KILLER crawlers in a average tourney. And they might end up facing eachother. Who built the better crawler? Who built the best HS? Which popup has the better wedge? Are these questions that different? Crawlers would just join the ranks of the power types, along with HS and popup.

So far your two arguments are that crawlers are too good to be entered and that having crawlers in a tourney would make it less entertaining. Am I wrong?
IMO, SnS have way more boring matches than crawlers. Crawlers move towards each other.

[Naryar]

So...?

So... crawler spam. Crawler win, crawler win, and again crawler win. People will get BORED after 5 crawler victories, especially that crawlers aren't very popular and WILL stay like this. Where will be originality and creativity apart from building another crawler?

What's so bad about crawler vs crawler? If they both have controlled movement it could actually be a very interesting match

SO SLOW. First they take 10 seconds to reach each other, then they keep bumping into each other for the rest of the match, barely moving, wearing down their weapons and getting a KO if lucky, but more like 3-minute WBP matches. No massive hits that send both bots flying, no one-hit-kills, no high speed action, no flips... YAWN.

Half the tourneys already have HS, but no one complains.

I did in BBEANS5... and i'm pretty sure i was not the only one who said "a lot of HS in the bracket".

Not everyone can build a killer crawler, just like not everyone can build a superb HS or popup.

Building a good crawler is nothing like optimizing a caster armored popup.

IMO, SnS have way more boring matches than crawlers. Crawlers move towards each other.

SnS can deliver massive hits, unlike crawlers. And Apanx's FBS.py might change this.

And DSL crawlers... DSL is made to be realistic, and no crawler would every fight decently in real life.

[ACAMS]

I sure hope nobody enters one in RAW!
Of course a MW crawler would be hard to build and not be very effective!

[Sage]

So... crawler spam. Crawler win, crawler win, and again crawler win. People will get BORED after 5 crawler victories, especially that crawlers aren't very popular and WILL stay like this. Where will be originality and creativity apart from building another crawler?

By your reasoning, no one will build them anyways, because they are unpopular.



SO SLOW. First they take 10 seconds to reach each other, then they keep bumping into each other for the rest of the match, barely moving, wearing down their weapons and getting a KO if lucky, but more like 3-minute WBP matches. No massive hits that send both bots flying, no one-hit-kills, no high speed action, no flips... YAWN.

Do you have proof of this, or is it just speculation? Because Bumble Bee moves pretty fast, and I have a video to prove that. And again, is entertainment value really your strongest argument against having crawlers in tourneys? A bot shouldn't be allowed to enter because it will cause boring matches? That's not a good reason at all.



I did in BBEANS5... and i'm pretty sure i was not the only one who said "a lot of HS in the bracket".

I don't remember seeing a debate about whether or not to ban HS from tourneys however.



Building a good crawler is nothing like optimizing a caster armored popup.

How many have you built?



SnS can deliver massive hits, unlike crawlers. And Apanx's FBS.py might change this.


^^^ DSL ONLY. In stock, SnS are more like HS in the fact that they shred the opponent. The part about the FBS AI is true however. There's also a AI for spinning crawlers that stops them from spinning and moves towards the other bot.

And DSL crawlers... DSL is made to be realistic, and no crawler would ever
fight decently in real life.

Neither would most DSL bots. Using real components and enforcing the realistic rule does not mean the matches are anything like in real life.

[Naryar]

By your reasoning, no one will build them anyways, because they are unpopular.

Oh really ? I perfectly know some builders will build and most likely use crawlers in the future if they are not banned. I said "not very popular" that is, only a few builders really like/use them, not "unpopular". Obviously they will be built... simply not as much as HS or popups, excepted if they are accepted by the community as not ghey anymore.


Do you have proof of this, or is it just speculation? Because Bumble Bee moves pretty fast, and I have a video to prove that.

Didn't you said that this debate was about crawlers and Bumble Bee was just an example ?

 And again, is entertainment value really your strongest argument against having crawlers in tourneys? A bot shouldn't be allowed to enter because it will cause boring matches? That's not a good reason at all.

My strongest argument is that crawlers are unbalanced. If entered into tournaments, they will destroy HS and popups (both types usually dominate tournaments) and will dominate tournaments, and we'll see crawlers everywhere. I will agree with the idea of crawler-only tournaments, but i just dont want crawler spam.


I don't remember seeing a debate about whether or not to ban HS from tourneys however.

Obviously because HS are commonly built...

How many have you built?

Maybe 2 or 3... but i never spent 5+ building hours on one like i spent on PitA 7.

There's also a AI for spinning crawlers that stops them from spinning and moves towards the other bot.

I can see this working with a simple SnS AI. Hell, even Whipper could work...

Neither would most DSL bots. Using real components and enforcing the realistic rule does not mean the matches are anything like in real life.

That's not true for most of the HS and VS. Some of the gut-rippers would be much less efficient IRL for sure... but a crawler would be nearly worthless and barely work.

ALL HAIL WHITE TEXT

[ACAMS]

Well this debate (as you call it) can stop right here as it is up to the tournament host as to what kind of bots are allowed, as long as it is stated in the rules at the announcement of signup rules.
I personally don't mind ANY type bot!

[System32]

I have a quote saying you dislike Multibots.

Urjak, Make a conclusion if you must...

[ACAMS]

I have a quote saying you dislike Multibots.

I has been kawt!
 
I don't like Multibots in tournaments because it is hard to keep your own (or your team mates bot) from destroying each other......besides...Multibots are not a type of bot.

[Sage]

Because Naryar started, I am allowed one last response.


Oh really ? I perfectly know some builders will build and most likely use crawlers in the future if they are not banned. I said "not very popular" that is, only a few builders really like/use them, not "unpopular". Obviously they will be built... simply not as much as HS or popups, excepted if they are accepted by the community as not ghey anymore.

"Only a few will build them." Hardly half a tournament...


Didn't you said that this debate was about crawlers and Bumble Bee was just an example ?

Yes, showing that crawlers have the ability to move fast. When you used the example you focused on Bumble Bee being invincible, and I pointed out that not all crawlers were like BB. I will confess that not all crawlers are fast, but they do have the ability to be so.



My strongest argument is that crawlers are unbalanced. If entered into tournaments, they will destroy HS and popups (both types usually dominate tournaments) and will dominate tournaments, and we'll see crawlers everywhere. I will agree with the idea of crawler-only tournaments, but i just dont want crawler spam.

Like I said, R4 can beat Bumble Bee, and I'll bet there are other popups that can do so as well. "...and we'll see crawlers everywhere." You just contradicted yourself. Earlier in the post you said only a few people will like/use them. There will be no crawler spam.

Obviously because HS are commonly built...

So if crawlers were commonly built, that means no one would want them banned from tourneys?

Maybe 2 or 3... but i never spent 5+ building hours on one like i spent on PitA 7.

Some bots take longer to make than others. That's never been an issue before.


That's not true for most of the HS and VS. Some of the gut-rippers would be much less efficient IRL for sure... but a crawler would be nearly worthless and barely work.

Yep, Mako is totally realistic. And most of the DSL VS are Mako clones.


Now Urjak, you may commence judging.

[Urjak]

This is a very interesting debate. I will evaluate all the arguments, and come to a conclusion soon.

[Urjak]

Okay, after a thorough review of the debate, I hereby rule in favor of Sage.

My Reasoning:

It would appear that Naryar's basis for banning Crawlers is not that they violate any rules, but because he seems to view them almost as lesser robots. He claimed that "Building a good crawler is nothing like optimizing a caster armored popup." Regardless of whether this is true, it is still no grounds for them to be banned.

He also seems to think that should a tournament have a large number of Crawlers, the matches would be borring, and that everyone would get tired of seeing Crawler Vs Crawler battles. This may or may not be true, but the point is that what he claims is speculation, as not many Crawler Vs Crawler battles have been filmed. This is thus not a valid reason for the banning of Crawlers.

Naryar does bring up a strong point as far as DSL Crawlers. Regardless of whether other designs in DSL would be ineffiecient IRL, Crawlers would simply not function at all, and thus not be very realistic.

As for Sage's defense of Crawlers, he clearly states that Crawlers do not violate any of the standard tournament rules. He also clearly addresses that Cralwers are not invulnerable, and that popups can defeat even very well built ones like Bumble Bee. And I have to agree with him that even though a robot is good, it should not be banned purely for that reason.

All in all, even if Crawlers are deadly opponents and make for borring, WBP matches, in my mind this is still not a good enough reason for them to be banned from tournaments.

I hope you guys all enjoyed this debate, and hopefully there will be more to come.

-Urjak

[infiniteinertia]

Crawlers are ghey and should be used in special tourneys only

[Sage]

Good debate Naryar.

[ACAMS]

Crawlers are not ghey and should be used in all tourneys.

[RedSawn]

These Crawler arguments are ghey and shouldn't be on the forums.

[philetbabe]

i do not see any real problem with crawler   as long as  they are able to "move to"
and kill and immobile ennemy in a 'sensible time'.


the problem with crawler is that they seems very chaotic in their motion and we have the feeling that
a winning crawler relies much on luck than on its AI : Even with no AI they should be dreadfull as long as their ennemy
goes havock.

against that, here are few point to take into account :
- today, because of our feeble AI skills, most bots rely on their weapons more than their AI :  this is also the case
for crawler.
- no much kind of bots, but HS, may give the point against a crawler : this is the game of Rock-Paper-Scissors
 : A beats B that beats C that beat A : what will you consider ? making another crawler may not always
 be the winning strategy.
- if you look at a VS that had lost some of its weapons, it is worse a crawler : very instable, jumpin and flying, and
it still makes damage. Forbidden VS ?
- if we forbidden crawler, what about half-crawler as some have been show in showcase ? Indeed, i think that if we allow  crawler,
we will soon have  1/2 crawlers too. This last kind of bot, not much explored yet, may bring new building technics, new AI.
1/2 crawler are not 'the future of RA2' but they are a path of progress while other path seems to ceil yet.


other point :
it is always possible  to choose an arena that handicaps some kind of bots :
if you don't want wedge, take arena with no 'fully flat' floor.
if your don't want crawler,use low barrier or 'many' hazards they should have problem to avoid.