gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Zog on October 28, 2010, 06:09:09 AM
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I, like many other people on this forum, was on the official RA2 forums (I was only on for 2 weeks though). I still remember the old ways of stock, in which we built "realistic" bots. The bots in stock which we now classify as "realistic" would fall apart after 2 seconds IRL.
Now, earlier today I read something that Sage said whilst browsing the forums. He wrote it about a year ago, but it intrigued me. He stated to RFS that bots built in stock are no longer realistic, and that he should know that by now (for those interested, he wrote it in MAD's topic "AceUpLink Survivors").
This is why I think that we should revert to our old ways with building in stock, and actually try and focus more on realism, rather than defences.
I regularly check "A blast from the past... Checking 'da archives", and I'm astounded at how people build bots in stock now compared to back then.
So who feels the same way?
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You can't just force people into making all of their robots realistic. It's just like forcing vegetarians to eat meat.
If you want to build realistic stock bots, go ahead. Thyrus is doing roughly the same thing in DSL and he's doing fine. :P
Bot building evolves. You can't help it. Someday even our bots will be phased out.
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^ yup ^
honestly you miss it now because its not the norm but IMO the unrestricted aspect is what kept this alive for so long, the less restrictions allowed designs to compete with the flexibility of DSL.
I in my free time build robots that you would find IRL in a copy of stock myself (with a few custom parts), it actually is the birth father of Backlash, I find it fun myself but as soon as you jump into a AI tournament situation.... well.... you saw Pow...
like Pwnator said, by all means do it and try and get people interested but you cant just straight tell everyone to not build in a particular way (believe me, I tried :P)
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^You have both hit the nail on the head.
No one is saying that you can't build like that. If you want to, do it but don't expect to win in a tournament. RA2, like every other game, evolves. New techniques, new glitches, new information surfaces and we use it to our advantage.
With RA2's physics engine, it will never ever be able to be fully realistic. You can try to build realistic bots but that won't stop other people from making their unrealistic machines.
If you want to build realistic bots, go for it. If not, then don't complain about the unrealistic-ness of everyone else's bots.
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Perfect realism in such an unrealistic game is something that is near impossible. Even back in the day when "everybody built realistic" as you are saying, there were folks like ACAMS and Starcore that were building bots far more advanced and not so realistic. The game changed then, and I sincerely doubt it is ever going back.
RA2 is the best robot-combat simulation game in existence. However, it was developed a very long time ago and the result was a game that still did not quite match up to real building. That's what DSL was made for, a step in that direction. Building effective realistic bots in stock is nay-impossible.
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I know next to nothing about the Old World forums, but I do agree that building style naturally evolves over time. The game's has seven years (?) to be played, and its glitches and secrets discovered, so the bots would gradually incorporate these more and more, until it's all seen as acceptable, really. If you want to build realistic stock bots, go ahead, Jonzu managed a pretty good realistic Stock tournament. I don't think we should suddenly impose the restrictions on everybody, though.
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@Kill - Yes, I respect that, and I completely agree with Pwn's comment. The only problem is though, is that whilst I build in stock like Thyrus builds in DSL, no one else does.
And I understand that I probably won't be able to convince the whole community to change their building ways, especially people like JD, but like you said, bot building evolves and changes, and it still is. All that I am trying to do is to force it to turn right instead of left. I always will build realistic in stock, and all I hope for is that a small amount of the community will follow. Some of the Vets might, too, depending if they prefer the old ways or the new ways.
As for me, well, I definitely prefer the old ways.
@NFX - The old forums (my memory won't be too good) were absolutely brilliant. You will not believe how much happened in them, mods and ideas wise. I'm definitely not trying to make everyone have these restrictions, but I just hope for a small portion of the community to agree.
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I do build some more realistic Stock bots, but they're really just for kicks, and taking on the Stock AI. Like I said, Jonzu had the realistic Stock tournament not too long ago, and there was N00B Wars courtesy of Reier. I reckon realistic Stock tourneys are quite a good idea, personally.
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I do try to build some realistic (well, DSL realistic) stock bots when I build stock. I don't personally like UBER STACKED HS. They just are ugly and make no sense.
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I agree with NFX and Zog.
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One of the main resasons I never build in stock is because I feel the need to build something using a f@~#-load of glitches.
I know it isn't the case, but for whatever reason that's what goes through my mind when I think about stock.
You know...maybe if I did try to build properly realistic bots for stock, I might actually start to like it in the same league as DSL, so you may have won one person over atleast zog ;).
But yeah, people aren't going to suddenly start building in stock like they do in DSL, and if they did, stock would probably end up dead.
Still, you could definately get people interested in realistic stock, it would be cool to see for sure.
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We can't change a community this far in so easily.
However, we can promote realistic stock designs with tournies and the like ^^
*Probably going over what somebody else said*
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i have always been building realistic, but for tournaments, it's not possible in stock. get wiped out in seconds. i just made myself a DSL only builder. more parts, more options and all realistic. well, RA2 realistic. it wouldn't be bad to have more things where you build a bot as you would build it IRL.
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I don't build, but if I would, it'd probably be realistic.
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for me on the old RA2 forum, it was already unrealistic building in stock. i didn't like it and was still building realistic in stock. Inf didn't agree with me on that, but i didn't care... and i still don't.
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Meh, I personally don't care, but because it took me about a year to make an effective Stock HW in this game, I totally agree with Zog here.
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Build a realistic bot that hasn't been done before and is semi-effective and I'll see your point as valid.
Otherwise, stock's about having fun building whatever the heck you want to build, with most "restrictions" already broken by glitches and such. Almost everyone who pushes for "realistic" stock are those who are too lazy to put in the effort and learn the glitches and techniques and patience required to build a good bot, so they're looking for a way to bring other people down. At least my opinion.
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@sage I know HOW to do the glitches, and im sure if I tried and spent some time in my stock showcase I could build decently in it. I just don't like stock for many reasons.
If I, or somebody else for that matter, can make cool looking, or at the very least unique bots in stock, but without effectiveness and loads of glitches, would you call them lazy?
I'm not saying that they should try and make everybody else do the same, but i'm saying if somebody was to do that (like thyrus in DSL) they shouldn't be looked down on for it (although, not saying that you think that, i just want to know your opinion on that).
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to me, all those unrealistic stock bots looks the same. can't see the fun in that. it's all DSL for me, there everyone builds realistic bots.
and Sage, want to see a realistic and good stock bot? search for my Micro Vulcan.
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to me, all those unrealistic stock bots looks the same.
Reason I don't like stock #17
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to me, all those unrealistic stock bots looks the same.
thats where the skill comes into it
there are some good points but I dont see the need to change a community ? just do whatever with stock and have what you build be effected by what tournaments you enter.
nobody tells you in the stock showcase "build unrealistically"
DSL is different because it was a mod intended for building realistically, same as Backlash, it feels like a massive middle finger when someone tells you how you should build with your own mod (been there, felt that, not fun) so we stay respective with the intentions for day to day stuff (doesn't mean you cant do what you want though)
Stock really became stronger with non realism after DSL, otherwise there is no need for it, its what sets the 2 apart. before jumping into Backlash I did a lot of research, I figured in order for Backlash to become a "3rd choice" and not just something extra it needed to set robot building apart from the other 2, otherwise it would loose in favor of DSL.
however... that said, a few people were going to re-balance all the stock parts at some points in time, if someone ever succeeds, makes new UI, AI and all that jazz, writes it off as a realistic stock mod then bingo, realistic stock building against other realistic robots. I admit im interested myself (though obviously I barely have time to finish my own mod let alone starting another)
its a little known fact the Backlash involves stock parts that DSL doesn't, including new variants. not just to add variety but to bring original elements into the game..
just some stuff to think about...
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@sage I know HOW to do the glitches, and im sure if I tried and spent some time in my stock showcase I could build decently in it. I just don't like stock for many reasons.
If I, or somebody else for that matter, can make cool looking, or at the very least unique bots in stock, but without effectiveness and loads of glitches, would you call them lazy?
Yep.
Take this example. A fat man tries to look cooler by wearing expensive clothing that looks cool, along with his trademark hat that makes him unique. It wasn't a very effective way to make himself look better. Now, if he had gotten off his lazy ass and did a strict routine of diet and exercise, he would have lost his fat and would look 10x better than he did before. Diet and exercise is effective. He can put those expensive clothes and trademark hat on after for icing on the cake.
I hope that metaphor makes sense, cause it does to me xD
and Sage, want to see a realistic and good stock bot? search for my Micro Vulcan.
Build a realistic bot that hasn't been done before and is semi-effective and I'll see your point as valid.
Flippers have been made since the beginning of RA2. And they suck. Except in DSL.
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:rotflmao:
Sage, did you seriously just compare inneficient builders to rich fat people?
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You know, I think he did. =D
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:rotflmao:
Sage, did you seriously just compare inneficient builders to rich fat people?
What better way to say lazy? :P
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DSL can make much better looking replicas than Stock anyway.
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DSL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stock anyway
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and Sage, want to see a realistic and good stock bot? search for my Micro Vulcan.
Build a realistic bot that hasn't been done before and is semi-effective and I'll see your point as valid.
Flippers have been made since the beginning of RA2. And they suck. Except in DSL.
my @5$ that flippers suck... in Stock.
but yeah, massively QFT what Nary said.
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DSL2 is broken. If I could win BBEANS 6 when I really don't play DSL there's something wrong :) Which is why I like stock, cause only the best built bots win tournaments.
DSL3, however, will be really good.
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DSL2 is broken. If I could win BBEANS 6 when I really don't play DSL there's something wrong :)
:O you chose that instead of saying your great?
its not broken, your robot was good, wedges are the wild card factor between how successful a robot is, you can spend days making a perfect one or luck out and have a good one from the start...
they mean more in DSL then stock because of the increase of components to make them
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DSL2 is broken. If I could win BBEANS 6 when I really don't play DSL there's something wrong :) Which is why I like stock, cause only the best built bots win tournaments.
DSL 2 is broken, but LESS SO than stock. And you won because you built something good, but out of copying.
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Personally, I love watching the stock tournaments more. There is so much more variety, and there is also much more action. In DSL there are many set best designs because of the limits of realism and balancing *glances towards Naryar*. The parts give options to new bot types, but only certain ones are still the best.
In stock, we know what works, we know what doesn't, and the unrealisticism has allowed us to build completely new and unrealistic things, 7 YEARS after RA2 came out. If you don't like stock, then don't play it.
Many of you are forgetting that stock RA2 is what you ALL played first, and I doubt you bitched about it before joining GTM. Stock is much simpler to learn on the outside, with only a few parts used because of good and bad parts. The learning curve for glitches is steep yet rewarding. It should really be respected more that with so few parts that we really use, and glitches like AGOD and the Rule of 7, that so many intricate and unique designs are made.
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DSL2 is broken. If I could win BBEANS 6 when I really don't play DSL there's something wrong :) Which is why I like stock, cause only the best built bots win tournaments.
DSL 2 is broken, but LESS SO than stock. And you won because you built something good, but out of copying.
If I'm able to copy someone's bot (not saying I did, but for arguments sake) and then win, DSL is broken. The thing about stock is you have to be GOOD AT BUILDING to copy a GOOD BOT.
Also, stock isn't broken. Wedges don't rule. And honestly there aren't that many more parts to use in DSL, it just took us a lot longer to find the good ones.
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Erm, I just find DSL more fun...
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I'll just say this: I got bored of the stock game after literally 3 days because it was too easy. If it wasn't for the DSL I'd be playing UT3 right now.
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Both are fun in different ways.
For me, DSL is fun by seeing robots torn to bits because they are covered in external extenders/armor/etc.
For me, Stock is fun by the satisfaction of building a good bot, and by epic moments like OOTAs and OHKOs.
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I'll just say this: I got bored of the stock game after literally 3 days because it was too easy. If it wasn't for the DSL I'd be playing UT3 right now.
Well TBH the AI packs are made because of the easyness of the stock AI.
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I'll just say this: I got bored of the stock game after literally 3 days because it was too easy. If it wasn't for the DSL I'd be playing UT3 right now.
Me. You. AI battle.
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I'll just say this: I got bored of the stock game after literally 3 days because it was too easy. If it wasn't for the DSL I'd be playing UT3 right now.
Me. You. AI battle.
Don't do it Deadmetal
(http://friendsoftheprogram.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/its-a-trap.jpg)
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Lols now we are talking about how good stock is, thought zogs original question was about realism rules? :mrgreen:
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Popups in dsl are pretty cooll
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Nary is going to hate me for this comment, but DSL is now 90% wedges 10% actual bot building skill.
THERE, I SAID IT. This is why I don't want to play DSL. Calling stock "broken" depends on who you ask, really. But I'm with Sage here. Stock is more of a natural selection as far as tournaments go.
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Nary is going to hate me for this comment, but DSL is now 90% wedges 10% actual bot building skill.
The last 2 dsl tournaments I won was with wedgless robots, I must be all skill by that reasoning :mrgreen:
But again, why are we discussing this and not the zogs proposal :P
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Nary is going to hate me for this comment, but DSL is now 90% wedges 10% actual bot building skill.
No way, surely Flail SnS need to make up some of those percentages.
DSL has more types, hence more counters, and ultimately more chance of luck occurring in a tournament. So take RIP2 a VS won because it didn't have to face any SnS.
Probably why I more or less stop participating in tournaments.
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Nary is going to hate me for this comment, but DSL is now 90% wedges 10% actual bot building skill.
No way, surely Flail SnS need to make up some of those percentages.
DSL has more types, hence more counters, and ultimately more chance of luck occurring in a tournament. So take RIP2 a VS won because it didn't have to face any SnS.
Probably why I more or less stop participating in tournaments.
You're part of the 10% that make up skillful builders.
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Perfect realism in such an unrealistic game is something that is near impossible. Even back in the day when "everybody built realistic" as you are saying, there were folks like ACAMS and Starcore that were building bots far more advanced and not so realistic. The game changed then, and I sincerely doubt it is ever going back.
RA2 is the best robot-combat simulation game in existence. However, it was developed a very long time ago and the result was a game that still did not quite match up to real building. That's what DSL was made for, a step in that direction. Building effective realistic bots in stock is nay-impossible.
And it was Starcore and ACAMS that lead the designs and concepts of DSL.
Even in real life robot combat, as year by year went by new parts and technologies came available.
ACAMS and I both tried to support and promote the concept of year by year carefully tested and reviewed parts added to the Stock portfolio but that was shut down quite harshly by flames and complaints when ACAMS made available the simpliest of improvements that fixed some missing symmetry and a simple attach point variation.
Consider the types of bots made in the earliest years of Battlebots and Robot Wars compared to what is built today. New efficiences, armors, weapons, battery and power systems. Double stacking an RA2 battery to represent a Li-ION battery (for example) doesn't seem that far fetched at that point does it?
Starcore
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the zogs proposal :P
Ooh am I called "The Zog" now? :P
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I do try to build some realistic (well, DSL realistic) stock bots when I build stock. I don't personally like UBER STACKED HS. They just are ugly and make no sense.
So consider arenas with different criteria.
Like an arena with poles staggered (would inhibit but not prevent HS designs)
Or an arena with pits (would inhibit bots that could not drive well enough to avoid hazards) even if they were just shallow pits.
Or no side walls (would give more value to well designed rammer/pushers).
Or different type of arena at each round of the match (so bots needed to be well rounded capable not one-sided designs).
Starcore
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Nary is going to hate me for this comment, but DSL is now 90% wedges 10% actual bot building skill.
THERE, I SAID IT. This is why I don't want to play DSL. Calling stock "broken" depends on who you ask, really. But I'm with Sage here. Stock is more of a natural selection as far as tournaments go.
Why would I hate you for just giving your opinion ?
Anyways, I think you don't play and build DSL enough to have an accurate representation. DSL isn't 90% about wedges. There also is correct AI-ing, drivetrain, weapon setup, and LUCK.
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If you put magically brilliant wedges that could get under everything on a bot that was built by an average noob who hasn't posted a showcase or lurked, they would be easily beaten by ANY design the top rung builders in dsl built.
So how can it be all about the wedges?
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If you put magically brilliant wedges that could get under everything on a bot that was built by an average noob who hasn't posted a showcase or lurked, they would be easily beaten by ANY design the top rung builders in dsl built.
So how can it be all about the wedges?
My point exactly. If magically brilliant wedges that can get under everything even exist in this game...
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My point exactly. If magically brilliant wedges that can get under everything even exist in this game...
T- Minus Arm Wedge.
Putting that on a n00b bot does not prevent it from getting killed by VS/Flail SnS.
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My point exactly. If magically brilliant wedges that can get under everything even exist in this game...
T- Minus Arm Wedge.
Putting that on a n00b bot does not prevent it from getting killed by VS/Flail SnS.
Pretty much any well built bot type would beat the n00b.
There's so many mistakes to be made that would leave the n00b bot even with the wedge easy to beat.
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in the tounaments i entered where i was free to build anything i wanted (so not counting BTTB in as i was stuck to a certain design) i never entered a bot with a wedge. i wasn't into building those in DSL back then. now i do build them, but i also still build other bot type's that don't use a wedge. even with the upcoming tournament from from jonzu, i'm planning to enter a wedgeless bot while i do have wedged BW bots (looking at Nightbox3 for now).
whichever way you look at it, DSL does require some actual building skill.
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Both of them take skill
Stock's more about glitching skills and DSl's more about creativity, ofcourse they are both massively influenced by other things aswell though.
Another reason I prefer DSL is because I find it easier to think up bots in the DSL way of thinking.
I can't imagine bot ideas aswell in stock as DSL because I don't think like that (ATM atleast) but others will find thinking up stock style bots easier.
All in all, stock or DSL, is all about opinion.
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New question: which is harder?
Stock.
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Both are hard for different reasons, but I agree for stock.
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yep, mentioned this already when I said people pushing for realism in stock were too lazy to get better at it. and then went to DSL.
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I play DSL because I suck at stock, and I perfer to build realistic bots.
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Yay a debate.
Anyways,
Both of them take skill
Stock's more about glitching skills and DSl's more about creativity, ofcourse they are both massively influenced by other things aswell though.
While I agree with you on your first point, I have to point out that being successful in Stock takes much, much more creativity than being successful in DSL. Think about it like this: components are like letters of the alphabet. Stock gives us lets say 5, while DSL gives us 20. Using DSL's 20 letters, it's fairly easy to spell a wide range of vastly different words, although you will also get many that mean basically the same thing. With Stock, however, we've been able to use the same 5 letters to 'spell' horizontal spinner, rammer, popup, drum, hammer, poker, etc. All of these words still exist in the DSL vocabulary, but for the most part, if 'spelling' popup in DSL takes five letters, you'll be able to use seven new ones to spell HS.
I hope that makes as much sense to you guys as it does in my head :P
DSL is more about variety. You have a wide array of available components, and this tends to give the illusion of creativity. While it is creative to a certain extent, using different components to construct the same things is not nearly as creative as using the same components to construct different things.
Also,
If you put magically brilliant wedges that could get under everything on a bot that was built by an average noob who hasn't posted a showcase or lurked, they would be easily beaten by ANY design the top rung builders in dsl built.
So how can it be all about the wedges?
This hypothetical bot would defeat 4 of the 6 BBEANS champions, regardless of weight class or game version. It's a bit too much about wedges. At least in Stock, it's a little more fairly balanced, but wedges play a bit too large of a role there too. Ideally, I'd like to see a rammers and VS be a bit more effective, but they really won't be just because of how both Stock and DSL work.
Of course, I've been a Stock guy my whole time here, and I like to think that I've been one of the guys who's continuously pushed the limits of what we thought possible, so "returning to the old ways" kinda seems like it's undermining all of the steps forward that Sage and Pwn and Scrap and myself, and Inf and Pys before us, and eFFe and Luigica and FB and CB before them, and way back to Starcore and ACAMS and co. back at the beginning have been working on making. "The old ways" weren't necessarily the best ways - just like I think the old forums weren't as absolutely spectacular as many of us have made them out to be.
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For combat bots, DSL haven't move much. It's been stuck in the same optimum strategy for quite a while now. I agree not much creativity is going on there.
However, I disagree that DSL is necessary less creative, at least for BOTM. The larger pallet of DSL really is needed to create some of the visual effects. Stocks just can't do it.
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you know I dont understand some of your people sometimes :P
Opinion on the original topic..
DSL was built for what you are wanting... realistic building.
DSL has a good percentage of stock parts already.
Play DSL if you want to build realistic, stock if you want no limit except parts amount (in comparison to DSL)
Self Promotion Opinion on the original topic...
Backlash has realistic building.
and a larger percentage of stock parts then DSL (I think?...)
new variants of your old favorites.
(now I just need to get off my lazy ass and finish the damn thing)