gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: RpJk on October 16, 2011, 04:07:33 AM
-
Ok This is an idea to help people understand what bot types are normally good and what they are weak against.
I've got an idea where it is like Pokemon types, Fire> Grass> Water> Fire
This is kinda like this when it comes to Robot Combat.
VS > Rammer > HS >VS
So I thought this would help alot for people who are new to competitive building in RA2.
However I will need suggestions when it comes to hybrids.
Is this a good idea?
-
Would be useful if you actually knew what types are good against others.
HS isn't always better than VS
-
Would be useful if you actually knew what types are good against others.
HS isn't always better than VS
And Scizor can still take on Flareon with the right moveset. Specializing something will always be an exception.
So yeah, that's pretty much it.
-
What they said.
-
Ok so give me suggestions.
-
That's pretty much it, really. List down the other types you would want to include to make this easier.
-
The only clear one is Popup > Rammer. Other than that...
-
pfft my rammer beat a popup [/brag]
Hows about hammer > SS then?
-
The only clear one is Popup > Rammer. Other than that...
Warmachine
-
Warmachine
Specializing something will always be an exception.
:P
-
Longbow would be a specialized rammer. Warmachine is pretty typical.
Anyway RA2 isn't exactly comparable to Pokemon in that there are concrete matchups of certain types beating other types, so I'll say good luck with making this idea work.
-
SnS > VS
SnS > Popups
SnS < Rammers
SnS = HS
HS > Rammers
HS < VS
HS = SnS
HS = Popups
VS > HS
VS < Popups
VS > Rammers
VS < SnS
Popups > Rammers
Popups > VS
Popups = HS
Popups < SnS
-
Stock or DSL?
Because saw-bots are a lot better in DSL than stock...
-
The only clear one is Popup > Rammer. Other than that...
Warmachine
That's because the popup had no defense. 90% of popups, at the HW level, have defense.
And one rammer win on a popup doesn't count, cause 95% of the time when a classic rammer faces a classic popup the popup wins anyway. One expection doesn't makes the statement "most of the time popups destroy rammers" false.
Edit : And yes, stock or DSL changes the odds. So we can't really make a simple table for bot efficiency ala Pokémon. Besides, RA2 is more complicated. Bot type isn't the same thing as a type in Pokémon.
-
The only clear one is Popup > Rammer. Other than that...
Warmachine
Can I see a pic of Warmachine?
-
It depends on the freaking skill level of the bot builder. Generally HS rape everything and Popups rape everything else.
-
Can I see a pic of Warmachine?
Here you go.
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/67149war machine.png)
he's the guy in the sky.
-
funny thing about that pic is that the rammer actually isn't warmachine, but just a pretty damn accurate replica of it that i made.
-
how about we make a table. Like for a round-robin tourney or PKMN type matchups.
We pit a REALLY GOOD example of two different bot classes against each other (like Seism 13 vs AC for popup vs HS) and do it 10 times.
The robot that wins more times is better than the other. If they both win 5 times, then they are equal in terms of strength.
I'll volunteer to do this over Christmas break if this is a cool idea. (of course we'd have to do both stock and DSL ones)
also we need good examples of each bot type for each weight class (AW, BW, LW, MW, HW, and SHW). Might need some people to send some examples IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE
-
how about we make a table. Like for a round-robin tourney or PKMN type matchups.
We pit a REALLY GOOD example of two different bot classes against each other (like Seism 13 vs AC for popup vs HS) and do it 10 times.
The robot that wins more times is better than the other. If they both win 5 times, then they are equal in terms of strength.
I'll volunteer to do this over Christmas break if this is a cool idea. (of course we'd have to do both stock and DSL ones)
also we need good examples of each bot type for each weight class (AW, BW, LW, MW, HW, and SHW). Might need some people to send some examples IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE
No, one example of a bot is not enough. To be precise, we should just go and amuse ourselves to take stats from every single non-SFTW (cause a SFTW pretty much loses to any bot type) entry into every single tournament and challenge that has ever been done on Gametechmods, see how it won or lost against what bot type, and calculate probabilities out of this.
It'll take a heck of a long time, but it will be much more accurate than just one example of a tournament.
-
Or we could just get 10 of each bot type, each slightly different and pit them against each other, that would take less time.
All would have to be good though.
-
Actually I think my idea would take less time... we just have to observe old tournaments rather than making a new tournament just for stats.
And if we are a sufficient number and we're doing our job well, it will take less time.
-
FG>Everything
-
FG>Everything
Most certainly, my dear sir. Hammer ? VS ? Yes, of course.
-
FG>Everything
Most certainly, my dear sir. Hammer ? VS ? Yes, of course.
If build stable enough. I reckon one could be made at HW level.
-
What's FG?
-
^Thought the same until I remembered...
Flying Guillotine.
-
what about a TRFBD?
-
FG>Everything
Except well built SnS and VS.
-
I could see this working for amount of wheels on a certain bot type but other than that there are way to many variables for this to be completely accurate, good idea though.
-
agreed but I like Nary's idea.
-
If we're making analogies to Pokemon, then popups are the Psychic type in gen 1. Nothing resists them except other popups and there are no supereffective attacks against them.
HS are the Fighting type (gen 2 onwards). Good coverage, supereffective against a lot of stuff, but weak to Psychic (popups).
Flying Guillotines and TRFBD's would be Dark and Steel types, respectively, since they resist popups and are more recent developments. Also they are weak to HS (or at least weaker than they are to popups).
-
FG>Everything
Except well built SnS and VS.
Yeah, the problem with this discussion is the "well built" clause.
-
Actually I think my idea would take less time... we just have to observe old tournaments rather than making a new tournament just for stats.
And if we are a sufficient number and we're doing our job well, it will take less time.
Like the idea
-
I'm surprised no one mentioned crawlers yet
-
I'm surprised no one mentioned crawlers yet
I don't think there's a Pokemon relatable to that. :P
-
Unlike Pokemon, the types in RA2 are not set in stone. The finite number of types in Pokemon are hard coded into the games and there are no exceptions to the strengths/weaknesses chart (unless looking at some glitches).
RA2 has nothing like this built-in. There are also going to be problems when sub-dividing bot's into specific types. We can't be too vague because of things like spinners (FS, HS, VS, FBS, drills, etc.) but we also can't be too specific (due to sheer numbers and a disproportionate scale).
Builders usually judge bots by several different and varying factors including but not limited to type, efficiency, quality, and weight class. This combines both categorical and numerical sets of data that people weigh differently on a case-by-case. We would need to quantify the categorical data in order to even consider comparing the bots.
I usually look at these four points:
Offense (based on speed, type of force (linear or angular), direction (vertical or horizontal), concussion, and pierce)
Defense (based on HP and Fracture)
Mobility (based on number of wheels, motors, weight, and invertibility)
Design (based on wedge, combat style, opponent, and build quality) (highly opinionated)
Indiscriminately judging bots in a chart or even a formula would undoubtedly provide faulty information. I've attempted numerous times to do this but, without the human element, the results are never accurate.
-
Lol this whole post makes no sense.
First of all, what arena are we even talking about? Open? Close? Or one of those Joeblo ones? Obviously in close arena Crawler is King.
Next it is weight class. The balance changes greatly from LW MW to HW SHW, especially in DSL.
Third, histories of past tournaments bear little relevance. Whatever any specific bot type used to be weak again in the long past doesn't matter if the design has since change to deal with the weakness. So to say Flail Sheck is weak vs popup, or popup is weak vs Flail SnS, is utterly pointless by today's standard. Historically they are true, but shell nowadays has way more than enough bottom armor to tank popups, and wide popup more or less render Flail SnS obsolete HW and up.