The Big Questions of the Universe

[Pyromaniac605]

You have to believe, and trust your senses. Something you can't see, smell, hear, touch, taste... is it really there? That's where faith comes in. Something you can't perceive with your senses

But that's the thing! Even something you CAN see, hear touch, or taste may not be real. The senses are easily fooled, and it could all be an illusion, so it's really no less logical to believe in something you can't see than to believe in what you can see.

This is ridiculous, sure your senses can be fooled from time to time, but the chance that every single one of your senses, and those of other people can all be fooled into experiencing the same thing is so infinitesimally small the only logical conclusion is that what is being experienced is real.

It's real to us, perhaps, but it may not be real in the absolute sense.

Please explain how something that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person (Minus those who lack certain senses) could not be real.

[Meganerdbomb]

I'm glad you asked! 

Now, imagine that you're a prisoner in a cave, facing the back wall, and tied up in such a way that you cannot move or turn your head. Now imagine that you have no memory of ever being anywhere but this cave; it's as if you have always been there. As you are facing the wall of this cave, the guards make shadow pictures on the walls, and make sounds that echo off the wall of the cave so it as if they are coming from the shadows. For you and the other prisoners, these pictures are all you know that exist in the world. You make observations about the shadows, categorize them, name them, and those who can name the most details about these shadows, or discover new things about them are thought to be especially clever. Now, imagine that you are supposed to be released. The guards untie you and begin to lead you to the surface. As you walk towards the surface, the sunlight begins to reach you, and to your unaccustomed eyes, it is so unbearably bright that you try to return to the cave, but the guards force you out into the sunlight, and fist, you cannot even open your eyes because the sun is so bright, but eventually your eyes adjust, and you see the wold in it's full glory and finally realize that the tings you saw in the cave were merely poor imitations of what is on the surface. Now imagine, after spending some time on the surface, you wish to share the wonders you have seen with your old friends in the cave. When you return however, they they claim you are a madman and continue to gaze at the shadows.

[Pyromaniac605]

I'm glad you asked! 

Now, imagine that you're a prisoner in a cave, facing the back wall, and tied up in such a way that you cannot move or turn your head. Now imagine that you have no memory of ever being anywhere but this cave; it's as if you have always been there. As you are facing the wall of this cave, the guards make shadow pictures on the walls, and make sounds that echo off the wall of the cave so it as if they are coming from the shadows. For you and the other prisoners, these pictures are all you know that exist in the world. You make observations about the shadows, categorize them, name them, and those who can name the most details about these shadows, or discover new things about them are thought to be especially clever. Now, imagine that you are supposed to be released. The guards untie you and begin to lead you to the surface. As you walk towards the surface, the sunlight begins to reach you, and to your unaccustomed eyes, it is so unbearably bright that you try to return to the cave, but the guards force you out into the sunlight, and fist, you cannot even open your eyes because the sun is so bright, but eventually your eyes adjust, and you see the wold in it's full glory and finally realize that the tings you saw in the cave were merely poor imitations of what is on the surface. Now imagine, after spending some time on the surface, you wish to share the wonders you have seen with your old friends in the cave. When you return however, they they claim you are a madman and continue to gaze at the shadows.

Wat.

I have no idea how this relates at all, the other people inside the cave have never seen the outside world, so of course they would not believe it to be true, if you were to free them and take them outside, they'd see that you were right all along. 

[Fracture]

I think if that situation actually ever occurred the person who saw the outside world probably would think that he/she himself/herself would be crazy, had died and gone to heaven, etc..

If the people were in there so long then that world is reality. Perhaps not for the guards, but it's certainly the prisoners' reality.

[Pyromaniac605]

I think if that situation actually ever occurred the person who saw the outside world probably would think that he/she himself/herself would be crazy, had died and gone to heaven, etc..

If the people were in there so long then that world is reality. Perhaps not for the guards, but it's certainly the prisoners' reality.

I don't see how it has anything to do with what I asked though.

[Fracture]

He changed

how something that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person (Minus those who lack certain senses) could not be real.

to

how shadow pictures that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person in the cave could not be real.

[Pyromaniac605]

He changed

how something that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person (Minus those who lack certain senses) could not be real.

to

how shadow pictures that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person in the cave could not be real.

Except for the fact that the shadows are real.

[Meganerdbomb]

He changed

how something that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person (Minus those who lack certain senses) could not be real.

to

how shadow pictures that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person in the cave could not be real.

Except for the fact that the shadows are real.

But they aren't REAL. They're simply images what is real.

[HurricaneAndrew]

He changed

how something that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person (Minus those who lack certain senses) could not be real.

to

how shadow pictures that can be felt, seen, heard, tasted and smelt by every living person in the cave could not be real.

Except for the fact that the shadows are real.

But they aren't REAL. They're simply images what is real.

Seriously... You both sound like you're high right now.

[Meganerdbomb]

That's philosophy for you.

[Pyromaniac605]

That's philosophy for you.

Congratulations on wasting everyone's time with your "you need faith in your senses" nonsense that you have no supporting arguments for.

[Meganerdbomb]

That's philosophy for you.

Congratulations on wasting everyone's time with your "you need faith in your senses" nonsense that you have no supporting arguments for.

It's only nonsense because you cannot even grasp the concept of what I am saying. Instead, you blindly cling to your own narrow perceptions. You are like the men still in the cave, who do not want to come out and see the light.

[Enigm@]

dead people don't exist. They're not living therefore they do not exist.

[Pyromaniac605]

That's philosophy for you.

Congratulations on wasting everyone's time with your "you need faith in your senses" nonsense that you have no supporting arguments for.

It's only nonsense because you cannot even grasp the concept of what I am saying. Instead, you blindly cling to your own narrow perceptions. You are like the men still in the cave, who do not want to come out and see the light.

What at all in that little story of yours had to do with somebody being fooled by their senses into believing something was real when it wasn't?

[Meganerdbomb]

That's philosophy for you.

Congratulations on wasting everyone's time with your "you need faith in your senses" nonsense that you have no supporting arguments for.

It's only nonsense because you cannot even grasp the concept of what I am saying. Instead, you blindly cling to your own narrow perceptions. You are like the men still in the cave, who do not want to come out and see the light.

What at all in that little story of yours had to do with somebody being fooled by their senses into believing something was real when it wasn't?

Do you really need me to spell it out for you? The shadows aren't real in the truest sense because they are merely a poor copy of what truly is. YOU ARE STUCK IN THAT CAVE!

[Pyromaniac605]

That's philosophy for you.

Congratulations on wasting everyone's time with your "you need faith in your senses" nonsense that you have no supporting arguments for.

It's only nonsense because you cannot even grasp the concept of what I am saying. Instead, you blindly cling to your own narrow perceptions. You are like the men still in the cave, who do not want to come out and see the light.

What at all in that little story of yours had to do with somebody being fooled by their senses into believing something was real when it wasn't?

Do you really need me to spell it out for you? The shadows aren't real in the truest sense because they are merely a poor copy of what truly is. YOU ARE STUCK IN THAT CAVE!

In real life we aren't stuck in a cave watching shadows on a wall, we can walk around to get a better view of things, we can feel things, we can use precise equipment to look at things on a microscopic scale, this kind of interaction with the world is far more advanced than looking at shadows on a cave wall.

[Meganerdbomb]

That's philosophy for you.

Congratulations on wasting everyone's time with your "you need faith in your senses" nonsense that you have no supporting arguments for.

It's only nonsense because you cannot even grasp the concept of what I am saying. Instead, you blindly cling to your own narrow perceptions. You are like the men still in the cave, who do not want to come out and see the light.

What at all in that little story of yours had to do with somebody being fooled by their senses into believing something was real when it wasn't?

Do you really need me to spell it out for you? The shadows aren't real in the truest sense because they are merely a poor copy of what truly is. YOU ARE STUCK IN THAT CAVE!

In real life we aren't stuck in a cave watching shadows on a wall, we can walk around to get a better view of things, we can feel things, we can use precise equipment to look at things on a microscopic scale, this kind of interaction with the world is far more advanced than looking at shadows on a cave wall.

But, that doesn't change the fact that your only proof that you're seeing the world as it really is is your own belief that you are doing so.

[Pyromaniac605]

Remind me again how this isn't a brain-in-a-vat argument?

[Meganerdbomb]

Remind me again how this isn't a brain-in-a-vat argument?

Because it's a brain in a cave argument. It's more than 2,000 years older than the brain in a vat argument.

[Enigm@]

Remind me again how this isn't a brain-in-a-vat argument?

Because it's a brain in a cave argument. It's more than 2,000 years older than the brain in a vat argument.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH SNAP.