religious debate thread

[NFX]

I haven't studied the original original of life for some time, so I don't remember all the details so well. 

The point still stands - life didn't come about because some deity came about and said "ORGANISMS GET!"

More like, life didn't start because a bunch of random chemicals sprang to life of their own accord. Do you know the mathematical odds of a chain of amino acids randomly combining to form DNA? Well, I'll tell you. They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

But there is still a chance. It's similar to drawing all four aces out of a pack of cards (1 in 6.5 million), or even winning the lottery. The odds are one in ten billion, but people still walk away with the jackpot. And just as the chances of amino acids randomly combining in the oceans of the young Earth, when you think about all the billions and billions of collisions between the amino acids there must have been, it was probably inevitable that sooner or later, a combination would form that was capable of reproducing. It was a very slim chance, but the point is, there was still a chance.

[Urjak]

They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

Can I have the exact source of those odds please.

[Incredirobotwars]

While I note the use of the term 'practically'...there is still a chance, though. Many things are improbable, but can still happen.

[Noodle]

They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

Well no crap the odds were against it, but it happened anyway.  It's a pretty rare occurrence, we're (and by that I mean the human race) the only documented case.  Just because the odds were against it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It's kinda like this story I head about a woman who's parked car got hit by a meteor about the size of a baseball.  Now the surface of the earth is roughly 510,072,000km², and lets say the car was about 2 meters wide and 5 meters long (an area of 10m²).  That means that there was about a one in five hundred billion chance that the meteor could have hit anywhere on that car, and there's a much lower chance for hitting the particular area that it did.  Despite the ¹/_{500,000,000,000} chance of it happening, the car got hit by the meteor anyway.

[Incredirobotwars]

Hear, hear!

[frezal]

I haven't studied the original original of life for some time, so I don't remember all the details so well. 

The point still stands - life didn't come about because some deity came about and said "ORGANISMS GET!"

More like, life didn't start because a bunch of random chemicals sprang to life of their own accord. Do you know the mathematical odds of a chain of amino acids randomly combining to form DNA? Well, I'll tell you. They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

Which is why completely new forms of life don't spring up too often.

[NFX]

I haven't studied the original original of life for some time, so I don't remember all the details so well. 

The point still stands - life didn't come about because some deity came about and said "ORGANISMS GET!"

More like, life didn't start because a bunch of random chemicals sprang to life of their own accord. Do you know the mathematical odds of a chain of amino acids randomly combining to form DNA? Well, I'll tell you. They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

Which is why completely new forms of life don't spring up too often.

And even if they did, they'd probably be killed off by superior predators. Like Naryar, for instance. =P

[Naryar]

I haven't studied the original original of life for some time, so I don't remember all the details so well. 

The point still stands - life didn't come about because some deity came about and said "ORGANISMS GET!"

More like, life didn't start because a bunch of random chemicals sprang to life of their own accord. Do you know the mathematical odds of a chain of amino acids randomly combining to form DNA? Well, I'll tell you. They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

Which is why completely new forms of life don't spring up too often.

And even if they did, they'd probably be killed off by superior predators. Like Naryar, for instance. =P

rawr ?

[Incredirobotwars]

Guys, in terms of this thread, Quantum theory, and the words of Supertramp:

'We have no reason to fight,
'cos we both know that we're right.'

[Noodle]

Guys, in terms of this thread, Quantum theory, and the words of Supertramp:

'We have no reason to fight,
'cos we both know that we're right.'

If only it was that simple.

[Meganerdbomb]

They're 1 over 10 to the 67th, or practically zero.

Well no crap the odds were against it, but it happened anyway.  It's a pretty rare occurrence, we're (and by that I mean the human race) the only documented case.  Just because the odds were against it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It's kinda like this story I head about a woman who's parked car got hit by a meteor about the size of a baseball.  Now the surface of the earth is roughly 510,072,000km², and lets say the car was about 2 meters wide and 5 meters long (an area of 10m²).  That means that there was about a one in five hundred billion chance that the meteor could have hit anywhere on that car, and there's a much lower chance for hitting the particular area that it did.  Despite the ¹/_{500,000,000,000} chance of it happening, the car got hit by the meteor anyway.

Alright, but ¹/_{500,000,000,000} are much better odds than¹/_{10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000}
Which is greater than the age of the universe.
I won't even say that this means abiogenesis couldn't have happened, I'll just say that you can't say that your beliefs make any more sense than mine.
Abiogenesis is really just a variation of spontaneous generation, which was disproved  by Lois Pasteur. The only real difference is abiogenesis uses the convenient explanation that anything can happen if you wait long enough, ****ing miracles.

[Incredirobotwars]

Guys, in terms of this thread, Quantum theory, and the words of Supertramp:

'We have no reason to fight,
'cos we both know that we're right.'

If only it was that simple.

Oh, but it is. According to the uncertainty principal, unless a physical measurement is done, we don't know - and all probabilities therefore exist. We can both determine that we're right, as the probabilities that there is and isn't both exist. It's much like if two horses finish neck-and-neck...until someone checks the finish photograph, both have won, because either may have.

[Noodle]

Alright, but ¹/_{500,000,000,000} are much better odds than¹/_{10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000}
Which is greater than the age of the universe.

First of all, it was just an example.  Second of all, I want to know where you're getting this number.

I won't even say that this means abiogenesis couldn't have happened, I'll just say that you can't say that your beliefs make any more sense than mine.
Abiogenesis is really just a variation of spontaneous generation, which was disproved  by Lois Pasteur. The only real difference is abiogenesis uses the convenient explanation that anything can happen if you wait long enough, ****ing miracles.

You're right about Pasteur disproving spontaneous generation, but aside from that you couldn't be more wrong.

There's a significant difference between abiogenesis and spontaneous generation.  Spontaneous generation states that organisms can simply come into existence for no reason whatsoever.  According to spontaneous generation, complex microorganisms can simply create themselves from nothing as if it was an everyday occurrence.  Abiogenesis states that life can be created from inanimate matter only if a certain set of rare criteria are met.

Put simply...
...according to spontaneous generation, a streptococcus can appear for almost no reason at all and infect your throat. 

...according to abiogenesis, that streptococcus cell can only come about after a precise set of circumstances are met and a simple organism is created which reproduces and over millions of years of evolution it becomes streptococcus. 


The main difference between the two is circumstances.  It's not just a matter of how long you wait.

[123savethewhales]

I won't even say that this means abiogenesis couldn't have happened, I'll just say that you can't say that your beliefs make any more sense than mine.

I agree.  People draw way too much conclusions out of the obvious lack of information.

Arguing for "Random chance" is really no better than "God".  They are both philosophically unfalsifiable and indistinguishable.

[Noodle]

I won't even say that this means abiogenesis couldn't have happened, I'll just say that you can't say that your beliefs make any more sense than mine.

I agree.  People draw way too much conclusions out of the obvious lack of information.

Arguing for "Random chance" is really no better than "God".  They are both philosophically unfalsifiable and indistinguishable.

That's a load of crap.

Yes, the scientific community isn't 100% sure about abiogensis yet, but it's held up well to testing so far.  The big difference between the two is that abiogenesis can be tested.  As our knowledge and equipment improves, we will continue to perform more and more experiments and discover more and more facts.  If our observations contradict the current theory of abiogensis and prove it wrong, we can modify it or replace it with another theory to suit our observations.

The concept of a god is, by nature, not testable.  You can't prove if it is real or unreal, and it ends there.  If you choose to believe in a god, you can't do it based on factual evidence.

[Naryar]

And how is abiogenesis right ? It's just a wacky theory.

When I learned about it last year I was already thinking "WTF is this ? even creationism is more believable !"

This coming up from an empirical agnostic.

[NFX]

And how is abiogenesis right ? It's just a wacky theory.

When I learned about it last year I was already thinking "WTF is this ? even creationism is more believable !"

This coming up from an empirical agnostic.

It's monkeys and typewriters, basically. Eventually they'll write Shakespeare through random chance. And eventually abiogenesis will bring about a replicating combination of amino acids through random chance. There's more chance of abiogenesis than some kind of all-powerful deity, in my view.

[Scorpion]

Well for all you guys know an all-powerful deity could be on this earth right now.

Maybe even on this forum *brushes hair out of eyes in dramatic fashion*

[NFX]

......nah. Nah, I don't think that there's anyone on the planet that is truly as selfless and all-powerful than The Almighty Jeff apparently was.

[Scorpion]

What?!?
Who is this jeff fellow?