gametechmods
Off-Topic => Chatterbox => Topic started by: Sage on December 21, 2009, 04:54:22 PM
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Swear words should not be censored or banned regardless of who the audience is.
AFFIRMATIVE- Frezal
NEGATIVE- Sage, Reier, anyone else (as long as it's on topic).
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AFF-
Who is actually hurt by "swear" words? Besides, why is "sh**" worse than "poop"? Why is "****" worse than "copulate"? If you can't come up with an answer as to why one is offensive and not the other, your stance is irrational.
NEG-
In a standard American society, there are many parents who feel the use of such "cuss" words to be impolite, wrong, or derogatory. One reason this may be is because of religious backgrounds. Anyone using God's name (or Jesus) in vain is looked down upon and is insulting all of the Biblical faith. It's basically taboo in our culture. That goes for all swear words. It's not the meaning of the word that is bad (unless it is a synonym of copulate, which many parents feel is not something they want their kids to learn about at a young age) but it's usually the word itself. Through generations of society, certain words become taboo for reasons such as impoliteness of obscenity. It can be considered "not proper" and in using such forms of these words you can make yourself look less professional, less educated, and much less of a nice person. While in an adult society these things are up to the person's choice of how they want to present themselves to the world, in the topic of a Lego forum there will undoubtedly be kids and young adults who may not grasp the social consequences of using said words. By inserting a filter into what is said, we can ensure that these harmful uses of the English language won't enter the minds of young adults until they are old enough to fully understand what the words mean.
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im only 12 and there are people younger than me who's parents might not allow them on the site if there are "rude" words posted about.
me personally am not bothered in the slightest if there are swear words because im used to it as i hear them all the time but i think they should be limited so that there isnt swearing all the time.
thats all im mentioning the now as i cant think of anything else.
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I'm leaning towards affirmative - in today's.. uhh.. "
poopy" society, these words are heard so much anyway, it becomes hard to control it at all. There is no censor on spoken word, atleast when you're in proximity.
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(Hehe. Sorry, Red... couldn't resist. Mad.)
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I am on 'affirmative'. Little kids should know they shouldn't be on the internet, with people who swear. Also, why is 'sh**' worse than 'poop' or 'crap'? It's just a synonym!
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Now, get out the popcorn...
Oh 'XXXX!' .... (= 'DoDo!').
You must be LRA2, since you're so nosey.
Ever heard of 'flypaper'? I have Your IP address now.....
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I am on 'affirmative'. Little kids should know they shouldn't be on the internet, with people who swear...
While I'm kinda on your side, that first point is kinda flawed.. you make it sound like it's the kid's fault for stumbling upon swear words. I don't know many places which have a competent ultra-safe swear filter.
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Little kids should know they shouldn't be on the internet
I will agree with this.
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Madiaba wins again.
Anyway, Sage has got that basis of it down correct, but let's look at two examples not related,
One which isn't a swear word, and one a racial slur.
First: at the end of WW1 there was a phrase, "Shell shocked." simple, and to the point.
However, over time and our society's apparent need to avoid offence, it became battle fatigue, then PTSD. Our society, and vocabulary tries to avoid offence, and look more mature at the same time.
Second: in the 1800's, British explorers found a strange and new man. Enslaved for god's will and greed, By the end of the century they were given a name, "Negro". After the abolition, racists adopted the name into "Nigger" as a racial slur. As an out of sight out of mind policy, (See: German censorship over WWII) we branded both as swear words.
I personally don't give a sh**.
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Good points everyone, just keep the 'personal attacks' out. Let logic dictate over emotions... Nice start.
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ummm everyone remember LRA2? He swore a lot, everyone hated him and now he's banned. That's why I don't swear on this forum. I don't want to get banned from the only forum that actually discusses what I love. Even kids at my school think robot combat is lame.
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I don't want to get banned from the only forum that actually discusses what I love. Even kids at my school think robot combat is lame.
same here other than kids at my school think that anything i do is lame and stupid.
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Yes, anything kids at my school they don't like, they label 'gay', or in Nary's case, 'ghey'. :P
Nobody in my school knows what RA2 is. They mostly play Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Halo 3. Nobody plays game that are older than the X-box or PSP. When I tell people I play RA2 or anything related to robotic combat, they think it's gay and for 4-year olds.
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ON TOPIC GUYS!
Times like these I wish I had mod powers...
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Anyway, this was said before, but what is the difference between 'sh**' and poop'? Or 'ass' and 'butt. What makes 'sh**' and 'ass' more offensive? It baffles me.
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Nothing, only that sh** is also used as an expletive. For example, OH sh**! has nothing to do with poop. It has been turned taboo by our society, and we cannot change that. Ass is used as an insult (YOU ASSHOLE) and is mainly meant as an insult, so even when you use it in a benevolent setting (My ass is cold) it is viewed as improper because we use it for other means. Unfortunate, but that's just how today's society works. Because we can not change that, we should not assist in teaching younger kids these words even if they may learn them in other ways. Especially if they have parents that are very proper, they might have to have their mouths cleaned with soap. Which I can imagine isn't very pleasant.
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The irony is almost everyone I know learned a swear word from their parents.
You just can't kep stubbing toes for 5 years and not say anything.
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Kids will learn swear words some day or another, what's the point of not letting them learn them at all (not at a young age)?
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I'm negative, but some swear words have alternative meanings like *itch means a female canine, --ck means well....wiki it, everybody knows --it means poop, so on, most are still offensive.
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Nothing, only that sh** is also used as an expletive. For example, OH sh**! has nothing to do with poop.
So are "shoot", "crap", "darn", "drat", etc. Does that make those words unacceptable as well?
It has been turned taboo by our society, and we cannot change that.
We could if people like you would stop perpetuating the arbitrary rules against using them.
Ass is used as an insult (YOU ASSHOLE) and is mainly meant as an insult, so even when you use it in a benevolent setting (My ass is cold) it is viewed as improper because we use it for other means.
"Jerk", "idiot", "moron", "dummy", and "weirdo" were all used as insults as well, yet you're not advocating that they be banned.
Unfortunate, but that's just how today's society works. Because we can not change that, we should not assist in teaching younger kids these words even if they may learn them in other ways.
But we can change how society views things! If everybody taught their kids that those arbitrary rules are bullsh**, they would be gone in no time. While these problems still exist, we didn't make significant strides in reducing racism and sexism by continuing to teach kids that women and non-white people are arbitrarily inferior. To make change occur, you gotta institute it.
Especially if they have parents that are very proper, they might have to have their mouths cleaned with soap. Which I can imagine isn't very pleasant.
We shouldn't base policy on the off chance that a kid has abusive parents from the 1950s.
What many people don't seem to recognize is that to join the forum in question (or most forums), you must be 13 years old. In movies rated PG-13, "sh**" is allowed an unlimited amount of times, and you get one "****". So if kids can go see a movie with this language, why wouldn't they be able to handle it on the web, where they are most likely illegally watching porn anyway?
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Speech, just like every other form of communication is all dependent on the audience. There are ways to offend people with words, music, visuals, gestures, etc etc. It all depends on who you are communicating with. Who is your audience?
As a courtesy, refraining from swearing in public is a good idea because your audience will vary and, thus, their opinions will vary. But, alas, we also run into the argument that it is a "Free World" and we have "the Freedom of Speech". Some people will take that freedom and run with it, disregarding the feelings of others in the process. But if you don't care about the level of respect your peers have for you based on their opinions of what you say, then why not?
The internet f*cks it all up though... Is it a private area? Is it a public area? If a messageboard is considered public then people should have the freedom to operate and communicate however they see fit. The respect given from the other members of the forum will ultimately decide whether those actions are favorable. If a messageboard is considered private then, by all means, the owner of the private board has just as much right to kick you out just like you were cussing up a storm in his/her own home.
I think cussing is totally fine as long as you are aware of the fact that there will be an audience that will find it permissible and an audience that does not. Also, in specific reference to the internet... it is not as public as it may seem. Think of your presence as being in someones house, if they don't like your conduct, they will simply ask you to leave or move you out by force. That is their right as well.
Paint a picture of a beautiful nude woman and you will find that there are places you can hang it that will bring you enemies by the boatloads... and there are places you can hang it and receive adoration and respect. Swearing is like a beautiful nude woman... :D
Just like art... just like music... just like any other form of human expression.
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Swearing is looked upon by almost all society as a vulgar, course, and dirty way to express one's feelings. In normal conditions, it is a person's right to be able to express themselves in any way they choose, even if it means coming across as an idiotic buffoon who can't control their emotions. Swear words are the extremes of the others. sh** is an extreme form of poop, or as an expletive in place of shoot, darn, drat, uncle, so on. Like all words, there are different shades of meaning for each. They might technically mean the same thing, but the shade of the word comes across as much rougher and darker, and angrier. You can't say they are the same word. If they were, why do we have two of them? To trip and to stumble. To run and to sprint. Basically the same thing, but one if a bit different than the other.
On the topic of a forum, someone who can control their emotions and not use the extremes of the expletives or the insults looks much more poised and in control. If the admin of the forum wants to have his forum be more clean, professional, and without vulgarity that is his choice. Just like there is a dress code in school, a word filter is absolutely something that can be used on forums for a more controlled, poised, and professional environment for its members.
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Precisely Sage!
So when we look at the arguement:
"Swear words should not be censored or banned regardless of who the audience is."
It ultimately does not matter... because the censorship is going to stem from where the audience is. And who controls the area/rules that the audience is located.
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a word filter is absolutely something that can be used on forums for a more controlled, poised, and professional environment for its members.
Read up on the Alpha X forum rules. Even though a word filter is there, the censored words will also be deleted because kids know what the writer was intended. That's tantamount to deleting "crap", "shoot", "darn", etc.
I'll address the rest of your post later.
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a word filter is absolutely something that can be used on forums for a more controlled, poised, and professional environment for its members.
Read up on the Alpha X forum rules. Even though a word filter is there, the censored words will also be deleted because kids know what the writer was intended. That's tantamount to deleting "crap", "shoot", "darn", etc.
I'll address the rest of your post later.
No, it's not tantamount. Like I said before, the words have different levels of meaning, and under the views of the forum Admin (and much of today's society) these words demonstrate a lack of emotional control and poise that he does not want on his forum. It's the same thing as if we ended this debate right now and got into a fist fight over the issue.
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No, it's not tantamount.
If I say, "Shoot!" is it not understood that I'm substituting one interjection for another? How is using "Shoot!" any different than using "Sh*t!" or any other censored form of "sh**"?
Like I said before, the words have different levels of meaning, and under the views of the forum Admin (and much of today's society) these words demonstrate a lack of emotional control and poise that he does not want on his forum.
Showing different levels of emotion is sort of why we have a large vocabulary, and have the ability to control our inflection. Forcing people to reduce their vocabulary for strictly arbitrary reasons does nothing but remove emotion from our communication. Speaking of removing emotion, if you want to remove the power of, "**** off!" say it more often. The more these words are used and become part of the popular parlance, the less power they hold. Look at the word "ass". It can be said on network television at non-obscure hours these days. Within a few years, the same will be able to be said of "sh**".
It's the same thing as if we ended this debate right now and got into a fist fight over the issue.
So when I shout out, "sh**!" when I stub my toe, that's the same as punching somebody in the face? What sort of fragile environment did you grow up in?
More to come later.
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We can always increase the power of swear word by following it with either a race, gender, religious believe, political stance, etc. Then again I might not need the swear word if I am going at that direction. Common words like "dirty" or "stupid" might be enough in those context.
I am sure even a child is capable of finding ways to use existing non censored words, even invent new words, just to insult others. To think censoring a certain sound or pattern of letters will somehow reduce the level of verbal violence is just nonsense.
The main focus then, isn't to teach children what words not to say, but the attitude in dealing with other people.
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It should be allowed,once people don't abuse it,e.g.:Your a ****ing ****er with a *****coated****.And your mom is a ****.
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It should be allowed,once people don't abuse it,e.g.:Your a ****ing ****er with a *****coated****.And your mom is a ****.
But that's so absurd that it falls into the realm of comedy.
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This all started because Jeff had a hissy fit about not being able to swear on a forum. Come on...
I mean if it doesn't matter, then what's the big deal? Just say the non-offensive one and we'll all be happy.
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Yea, but debating is fun.
So, lemme start off by saying you contradict yourself. First you say there is absolutely no difference between shoot and sh**, and then you say we limit our emotion and vocabulary by censoring words. As I stated before, sh**, **** and ass are all the words to express whatever emotion to the extreme, and it's these extreme emotions that can take away from the context of a forum, take way the professionalism of the forum, take away the poise, and provide a much more heated and vulgar arena.
When I related this to a fist-fight, I meant the level of emotion. We are having a clam, controlled debate about a topic at the moment. If one of us started swearing, we both know that person would look like they are getting worked up and frustrated, which is something that can't happen in a debate or you know the opponent is getting to you. Using swear words in this debate is like moving from a calm conversation to a heated argument, or from a heated argument to a bare-knuckled fist fight. It's not the exact same thing, but the emotions it represents are the same.
Swearing DOES show a lack of poise and control, and censoring these extremes of expletives is just if the admin of the forum views it as disruptive, troublesome, and stupid. This has nothing to do with free speech.
It seems like your only and last argument is that if we use swear words more often then the effect of them wears off and they become more accepted into society. If that happens, what makes them any different from the accepted expletives we use today, such as shoot, darn, drat, etcetera? If that is what you want the swear words of today to become, why not just use the less extreme versions now and save yourself the trouble of waiting?
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swearing can be a way to tell if a person has no control over their keyboard.
In my opinion, swearing should be a thing you can control. Why would it make a difference if somebody read your post as "**ck you", or "f*** you" either way, the same message is being passed. (I think Frezal mentioned something similar) So why not just take out the post until the person is ready to repost it in a tame way.
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It should be allowed,once people don't abuse it,e.g.:Your a ****ing ****er with a *****coated****.And your mom is a ****.
But that's so absurd that it falls into the realm of comedy.
I meant that's what it would be if someone DID abuse it.
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Leave the ****ing swear words alone. If somebody goes all "**** you", then ban the idiot.
Let's not kid ourselves - most of th "kids" on here know more curse words than the rest of us.
Or you can stop ****'ing them, just do some creative filtering:
f uck -> gently caress
s hit -> love
Et caetera.
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In my oppinion i agree with that they should not be around people who swear,beacuse we should not get our sentinces censord just for words like sh** or damn because of the parents who freak out over that, and on some sites where there is a warning for swear words then thats obvious but parents of 5 year old little girls should not ruin it just beacuse of hell or sh**, they should just leave
so serge you're saying to say "gently corres you mother gently corresin piece of love get the heck of the forums gently corres youlife robot arena 2"?
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YA SRSLY
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/73022owl6_ya-srsly.jpg)
I like owls.......and turtls
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WTF @ this guy
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swearing can be a way to tell if a person has no control over their keyboard.
In my opinion, swearing should be a thing you can control. Why would it make a difference if somebody read your post as "**ck you", or "f*** you" either way, the same message is being passed. (I think Frezal mentioned something similar) So why not just take out the post until the person is ready to repost it in a tame way.
I can tell you that everything you believe is a joke, and that is perfectly acceptable. I can say really mean and hateful things while exploiting your weaknesses, and that too would be acceptable. But if I were to say, "F.UCK YOU IN THE NECK!", that would show a lack of control? Why? Nobody has told me a legitimate reason why these words are offensive. All I've received is, "They're offensive because they are."
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That is correct. They just are offensive. Why is showing a middle finger offensive? Because we have made it, as a society, that way. Same with swear words. There doesn't NEED to be reason if the reality of it is that there are people who think of them as offensive, and nearly everyone looks at people differently depending on if they swear or not. Would people have voted for Obama if all of his speeches were full of cussing, swearing, and religious or sexual references? Probably not. He has a controlled manner about him, and that is why he is such a good speaker.
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I can tell you that everything you believe is a joke, and that is perfectly acceptable.
How can you tell this? Because he does not agree with you?
I can say really mean and hateful things while exploiting your weaknesses, and that too would be acceptable.
Why? I could be mean and vulgar and stoop to your level with personal insults, but I haven't. I think you wouldn't like it if someone else insulted you, why should you insult someone else?
But if I were to say, "F.UCK YOU IN THE NECK!", that would show a lack of control? Why? Nobody has told me a legitimate reason why these words are offensive. All I've received is, "They're offensive because they are."
Ok, then how about why do you use swear words? If in your opinion they're all the same, why don't you just be nice to the guy who thinks one is worse than the other and say the "non-offensive" one? In addition, if you really did think they were the same, you would use them interchangeably. I have not seen you do that. To be honest, I do not think you really believe this. This is just an excuse to swear.
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Good point, Reier.
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That is correct. They just are offensive. Why is showing a middle finger offensive? Because we have made it, as a society, that way.
From what I hear, it has to do with the archery days. Nevertheless, I couldn't care less about somebody flipping me off. I'm not an archer from the past, so it really doesn't mean anything to me.
Same with swear words. There doesn't NEED to be reason if the reality of it is that there are people who think of them as offensive, and nearly everyone looks at people differently depending on if they swear or not.
I would wager that nearly everybody uses these words. The next time you stub your toe, jot down what it is that you shout.
Would people have voted for Obama if all of his speeches were full of cussing, swearing, and religious or sexual references?
I would have actually been excited to vote for him if that had been the case. Instead, my vote was reluctantly given to him. With Sarah Palin appearing on the ballot, I couldn't take any chances.
Probably not. He has a controlled manner about him, and that is why he is such a good speaker.
I will counter with Samuel L. Jackson. Everybody loves Samuel L. Jackson. What is he most famous for? His use of language that you disapprove of.
As for Reier, I think you misinterpreted my post. I'll try to remember to clarify it later. For now, I have some foods to consume.
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Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.
Yes, because I can stub my toe on an internet forum.
You say that now, but he wouldn't even have been up for election if there was swearing in his posts. Swearing makes you a strong, passionate, hot-headed speaker who shows that they will fight for what they believe in and don't care at all what other people think, which is fine. However, that is not the kind of person that people want for the president. We need a cool-headed person, that keeps his emotions at bay and has poise and control.
Yea, everybody loves movies. And Samuel Jackson is a very good actor. However, it is the directors choice whether or not to have swearing in his/her movie, just as it is the choice of the forum administrator to ban swearing.
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Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.
If somebody were to flip you off, would you actually care? Why or why not?
Yes, because I can stub my toe on an internet forum.
I think it was fairly obvious I was speaking in IRL terms.
You say that now, but he wouldn't even have been up for election if there was swearing in his posts. Swearing makes you a strong, passionate, hot-headed speaker who shows that they will fight for what they believe in and don't care at all what other people think, which is fine. However, that is not the kind of person that people want for the president. We need a cool-headed person, that keeps his emotions at bay and has poise and control.
George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Twice elected. Both known for their use of "bad words" and hot headedness. I've got plenty more examples if you're interested.
Yea, everybody loves movies. And Samuel Jackson is a very good actor. However, it is the directors choice whether or not to have swearing in his/her movie, just as it is the choice of the forum administrator to ban swearing.
By all means does an administrator have the right and choice to ban swearing. On The Electric Playground forum, I could ban references to puppies. The show's hosts may not like it, but I certainly could.
What we're debating (or at least what I thought we were debating) is the merits of certain words. I am genuinely curious as to why people are offended by the words in question. Being offended by racial/ethnic slurs makes sense to me as the definitions are indeed hateful. But being offended by certain words and not their synonyms is baffling. Why does it matter what society arbitrarily decides? Society gets so much sh** wrong. (Segregation, anyone?)
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That is correct. They just are offensive. Why is showing a middle finger offensive? Because we have made it, as a society, that way. Same with swear words. There doesn't NEED to be reason if the reality of it is that there are people who think of them as offensive, and nearly everyone looks at people differently depending on if they swear or not. Would people have voted for Obama if all of his speeches were full of cussing, swearing, and religious or sexual references? Probably not. He has a controlled manner about him, and that is why he is such a good speaker.
I can offend people without using a single profane word, conversely I can use profanity (such as in holy "sh**") without necessarily being offensive. So offending people is not exclusive to profanity and thus a non unique harm.
Therefore, what you are advocating is the monitoring of people's intent, not a specific sound or a specific combination of alphabets.
As for Obama, I did not vote for him, his speeches are too full of filler words and too little in substance. That aside, George W Bush got elected twice, surely you are not telling people to imitate his way of speech just because "people have voted for" him.
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As for Reier, I think you misinterpreted my post. I'll try to remember to clarify it later. For now, I have some foods to consume.
Even if I did misinterpret the statement, by question is still legit. You seem to have misunderstood my post aswell, please answer it.
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OK, so we're moving off the internet forum thing and actually into a legit debate about why swear words are harmful, bad, or offensive? Fine.
If I were to flip of either my mother or the principal of my school, there would be severe consequences for showing disrespect. If I got flipped off by a little kid, I would punch him in the face for being an annoying brat. But, if he say, waved to me, then that would not happen. So you tell me, why is that?
OK, I still thought we we're talking about the forum. In real life, sure I'll yelp out a cuss word if I stub my toe really hard. Unless there are people around that would care (like my parents, teachers, etc. ) then I just let out guttural sounds of pain and such.
Yea, and Bush ruined the country. Like I said, swearing makes a strong speaker and people follow strong speakers. But strong speakers don't always make the right choices. Because they are hot-headed. However, many people in our country don't realize this as much, and this is why he was elected.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/300417 (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/300417)
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i cant take all this arguing
YOU WILL ALL BE HYPNOTISED BY THE MIGHT OF THE BANANA SMILEY!!!!
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/14972Banana smiley.jpg)
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Why the hell are you posting such an enormous off-topic picture in this thread exactly ?
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because this debate is meaning less
people like LRA2 (i call him Lame RA2) wont listen to this and no ones agreeing to anything
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So? The entire chatterbox is meaningless. What's the meaning of life? To continue the existence of our species? So what's the point of that? What does that do? Is life meaningless?
Haha I'm kidding. But seriously, what's the big deal? Why do you have you go ruin our debate for us? You look like a douche now.
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If I were to flip of either my mother or the principal of my school, there would be severe consequences for showing disrespect. If I got flipped off by a little kid, I would punch him in the face for being an annoying brat. But, if he say, waved to me, then that would not happen. So you tell me, why is that?
Because you, your mother, and your principal are pricks? You tell me why you guys are offended by it.
OK, I still thought we we're talking about the forum. In real life, sure I'll yelp out a cuss word if I stub my toe really hard. Unless there are people around that would care (like my parents, teachers, etc. ) then I just let out guttural sounds of pain and such.
Why change what sound you let out based on who's around if just about everyone yells out a "bad" word?
Yea, and Bush ruined the country. Like I said, swearing makes a strong speaker and people follow strong speakers. But strong speakers don't always make the right choices. Because they are hot-headed. However, many people in our country don't realize this as much, and this is why he was elected.
Swearing didn't make Bush a strong speaker. In fact, he was a terrible speaker who didn't seem to grasp the rules of grammar. Anyways, you asserted that no presidential candidate would get elected if they used "bad" words. He was elected twice. Thus, your assertion doesn't appear to be true.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/300417 (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/300417)
I'd rather not read the opinions expressed on that blag until after this discussion has run its course. I don't want to inadvertently steal any of their ideas. You may feel free to take some of their material, however. Just keep in mind that it's far from a scholarly source.
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Now that American t.v. doesn't blur the middle finger anymore, I take it as a thumbs up to swear all we want to. :mrgreen:
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Swearing is offensive because of the church a long time ago. Back then, the church had influence over almost every aspect of society. And they believe that some words were not acceptable because they were sinful. Anything sexual was sinful (ever heard of nuns?), and anything that went against the religion or used the lords name in vain (God damn, Jesus christ, etc...).
The other category of swearing lies in the slang words of society. Slang, in it's definition, is an extremely informal way of speaking. This is why my principal and my mother and a ton of other people think that swearing is offensive and disrespectful. Do you think formality is a complete joke? Should everyone go around wearing tattered clothing, drunk, and swearing like a sailor? That is the kind of thing formality prevents. Slang terms are just informal synonyms of other things.
If I were to sub my toe in front of my friend's parents and yell F_UCCCKKKKKKK!!! what do you think they would think of me? DO you think they would invite me back into their house? Just the other day I was at a friends house and another kid came over. After a while, my friend's mom sent him home because he was being too course and swearing, as well as using sexual terms repetitively and obscenely. I don't want that to happen, which is why I try to refrain from swearing in front of other people as much as I can.
I have never seen a public speech by Bush where he swore. That's what I was talking about, public speeches. I could care less what they said in casual conversation, cause that's not broadcasted over the entire country. I said a president would not be elected if he swore in public speeches. I stand by that. Unless you can provide a good, legit speech of Bush or someone else swearing their head off in a public speech. I can't find one.
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Jeff still hasn't answered my query.
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Swearing is offensive because of the church a long time ago. Back then, the church had influence over almost every aspect of society. And they believe that some words were not acceptable because they were sinful. Anything sexual was sinful (ever heard of nuns?), and anything that went against the religion or used the lords name in vain (God damn, Jesus christ, etc...).
The church also prevented people of different races from dating, but you don't see the bulk of society keeping that one alive.
The other category of swearing lies in the slang words of society. Slang, in it's definition, is an extremely informal way of speaking. This is why my principal and my mother and a ton of other people think that swearing is offensive and disrespectful. Do you think formality is a complete joke? Should everyone go around wearing tattered clothing, drunk, and swearing like a sailor? That is the kind of thing formality prevents. Slang terms are just informal synonyms of other things.
Calling things you like "cool" is also slang. If it's formality that bugs your mother and "a ton of other people", do they smack you when you say, "That's cool!"?
If I were to sub my toe in front of my friend's parents and yell F_UCCCKKKKKKK!!! what do you think they would think of me?
I don't know your friend's parents, so how could I possibly know the answer to that question?
DO you think they would invite me back into their house?
My friends' parents allow me in their house all the time and I don't censor myself. So if your friends' parents aren't complete prudes, they should have no problem with you exercising your vocabulary.
Just the other day I was at a friends house and another kid came over. After a while, my friend's mom sent him home because he was being too course and swearing, as well as using sexual terms repetitively and obscenely. I don't want that to happen, which is why I try to refrain from swearing in front of other people as much as I can.
People should be able to talk about sex all they want (so long as they're not sexually harassing anybody). Whether or not your friend's mom agrees is her problem.
I have never seen a public speech by Bush where he swore. That's what I was talking about, public speeches. I could care less what they said in casual conversation, cause that's not broadcasted over the entire country. I said a president would not be elected if he swore in public speeches. I stand by that. Unless you can provide a good, legit speech of Bush or someone else swearing their head off in a public speech. I can't find one.
Off the top of my head, this video comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0IJkD0znCQ There's also this Dick Cheney gem:http://politicalhumor.about.com/b/2004/06/25/cheney-to-leahy-go-fk-yourself.htm If you would like me to actually do some research, I'm sure I could find the time.
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Yea, and Bush ruined the country.
Bush DID NOT ruin the country....it was/is all those damn democrats like that damn Polosi bitch in congress and the senate. They are the ones allowing all this happen, and now they have a monkey on a string in their corner that don't know sh** from shinola so it will only get worse.
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ACAMS, your posts always make me laugh...
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My apologies for the delay. In real life, I'm planning a New Year's party, so I'm a bit scatterbrained at the moment. (More so than usual.)
How can you tell this? Because he does not agree with you?
I wasn't telling the kid that everything he believed was a joke. I don't know enough about the guy to know what he believes. What I was doing was making a hypothetical example. Nobody does a wholesale ban on attacking one's personal beliefs, but many do so with an arbitrary set of words.
Why? I could be mean and vulgar and stoop to your level with personal insults, but I haven't. I think you wouldn't like it if someone else insulted you, why should you insult someone else?
Yet you don't have a wholesale ban on insults, which, by definition, are actually offensive.
Ok, then how about why do you use swear words?
Why do you use the words you use? I use words, in general, for effect, for accuracy, and because I like the way they sound.
If in your opinion they're all the same, why don't you just be nice to the guy who thinks one is worse than the other and say the "non-offensive" one?
If I'm expected to change my vocabulary in an attempt to not use words you don't like, you must do the same for me. I can assure you, my list of words would be much longer and as equally arbitrary.
In addition, if you really did think they were the same, you would use them interchangeably. I have not seen you do that. To be honest, I do not think you really believe this. This is just an excuse to swear.
I do use the words interchangeably. For instance, I don't usually say, "Ah, sh**!" I much prefer, "Ah, crap!" To me, it sounds better that way. Maybe it's because I grew up with The Simpsons.
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Yes, but that wasn't integrated into society. That was the church exercising its power. Swearing will become less offensive as time goes on, but it will be a slow process, and for now the thoughts of the old days still ring true in our society.
Yes, but that isn't obscene slang. The synonyms are not vulgar. Awesome, a synonym, is OK. The synonym for sh**, however, is a horribly disgusting pile of feces that brings a bad image to ones head.
That's true, you don't know them. The answer is no.
You, being 21, have a completely different relationship with your friends' parents than me, being 15. Therefore, you can't compare.
It becomes my friend's problem when he gets kicked out of the house.
Was this before or after he was elected? Was this broadcasted nationally on TV? Also, does anyone have any respect for Dick Cheney?
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Just wanted to let you know I received my stimulus package Yesterday....
It contained watermelon seeds, Cornbread mix, and Ten coupons to KFC.
Directions were in Spanish.
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Yes, but that wasn't integrated into society. That was the church exercising its power. Swearing will become less offensive as time goes on, but it will be a slow process, and for now the thoughts of the old days still ring true in our society.
Mixed race couples was very much integrated into society. There are even isolated cases of mixed race couples being denied a marriage licenses now. How do we combat pointless societal rules? Stop enforcing them. Change doesn't just happen; it requires action.
Yes, but that isn't obscene slang. The synonyms are not vulgar. Awesome, a synonym, is OK. The synonym for sh**, however, is a horribly disgusting pile of feces that brings a bad image to ones head.
But one can say, "Poop," "Crap," and, "Feces," without people like you objecting. So what makes a word obscene? (I'm talking on more of a philosophical level here.)
That's true, you don't know them. The answer is no.
Sad.
You, being 21, have a completely different relationship with your friends' parents than me, being 15. Therefore, you can't compare.
That is true.
It becomes my friend's problem when he gets kicked out of the house.
If your friend wasn't sexually harassing anybody, it might be best for him to avoid households containing prudes.
Was this before or after he was elected? Was this broadcasted nationally on TV? Also, does anyone have any respect for Dick Cheney?
Based off his appearance, I believe the Bush thing happened while he was still Gov. Bush. As for Cheney, that was during the first term, if memory serves correct. As for respect, Cheney still has credibility amongst the neo-cons.
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What I mean was swearing was just taboo, and everyone came to accept that. Marriage laws actually brought down the hammer and said people couldn't do things. People all over followed the church, and if it believed some words were sinful, then that's what the people came to accept. Over time they were just taboo without thinking that it had a connection to the church, which is where we are now.
Well, again we get into the synonym debate. It gets back into levels of meaning. Saying "Oh crap" is like saying "darn", while saying "oh sh**" is like saying "damn". Both are expletives, but one has more emotion in it than the other. It is an "obscene" amount of anger, surprise, or pain. That's my thinking, at least.
Well unfortunately for him, most teenage parents are like that nowadays.
See, he wasn't running for presidency.
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What I mean was swearing was just taboo, and everyone came to accept that. Marriage laws actually brought down the hammer and said people couldn't do things. People all over followed the church, and if it believed some words were sinful, then that's what the people came to accept. Over time they were just taboo without thinking that it had a connection to the church, which is where we are now.
Which brings us back to the "why". Why continue to consider these words taboo if the reasons are no longer relevant?
Well, again we get into the synonym debate. It gets back into levels of meaning. Saying "Oh crap" is like saying "darn", while saying "oh sh**" is like saying "damn". Both are expletives, but one has more emotion in it than the other. It is an "obscene" amount of anger, surprise, or pain. That's my thinking, at least.
Is "damn" considered obscene? One of the most famous lines in movie history contains the word "damn"! ("Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."--Gone with the Wind.) In any case, if obscenity is directly proportional to intensity, why aren't the more intense forms of other words considered taboo?
Well unfortunately for him, most teenage parents are like that nowadays.
Just because the bulk of parents are hypocrites, that doesn't make their position right.
See, he wasn't running for presidency.
I didn't say that. I'm thinking it was during the 2000 primaries. Of course, I was only 12 back then.
When I was your age, I held the same position on "bad" words. I absolutely didn't say them, and got upset at those who did. As I got older, I started to think about things more; I started to question why things are the way they are. The more I thought about life, the more I realized just how much of society is based on completely arbitrary rules. There is no practical reason that I know of to not use the words in question. The objections to them are completely arbitrary, and as pointed out by you, were created by the church in an attempt to control primitive people.
So I ask, why continue to perpetuate this archaic nonsense? Even if the churches still maintained that these words were cursed, how does that affect me? Why should I be required to obey by the rules of bronze age myths that I don't believe in?
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It's like a bad habit. Swearing is definitely becoming more and more commonplace, but it will take a very long time for it to be accepted as normal, formal, and casual conversation by everyone. Because, of course, there are still many people who belong to a church.
The reason you swear is because you see no reason against it, and because you like the words better. However, there ARE still some people who find it offensive, and I think you should respect that. Their reason: because that's the way they were taught by their parents, who were taught by their parents, go back like 10 generations, who were taught by the church. Until that way of thinking dies down completely, respect those who still think like that, even if they are wrong in your opinion. Eventually someone in their family will have the same thoughts as you, with or without your help.
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Change doesn't just happen; it requires action.
When I was your age, I held the same position on "bad" words. I absolutely didn't say them, and got upset at those who did. As I got older, I started to think about things more; I started to question why things are the way they are. The more I thought about life, the more I realized just how much of society is based on completely arbitrary rules. There is no practical reason that I know of to not use the words in question. The objections to them are completely arbitrary, and as pointed out by you, were created by the church in an attempt to control primitive people.
By the way, isn't this a contradiction?
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It's like a bad habit. Swearing is definitely becoming more and more commonplace, but it will take a very long time for it to be accepted as normal, formal, and casual conversation by everyone. Because, of course, there are still many people who belong to a church.
Formal and casual conversation languages are completely different. For instance, describing something as "cool" when not referring to temperature is not at all formal. It is, however, in the casual parlance. Due to your age, I assume that you haven't spent much time, if any, on a college campus. Casual conversations are flooded with "****"s, "sh**"s, "bitch"es, "ass"es, "damn"s, etc. Even professors use these words in their lectures. So while authority figures may still be trying to keep kids down, in the real world, nobody really cares (aside from fundamentalists).
The reason you swear is because you see no reason against it, and because you like the words better. However, there ARE still some people who find it offensive, and I think you should respect that.
I will alter my speech patterns if one of two conditions are met: 1) Convincingly tell me why the words shouldn't be said. Included in this condition should be why they are offensive. 2) Agree to not use an arbitrary list of words of my choosing. While I do not wish to censor anyone, this option would, at the very list, level the playing field.
Their reason: because that's the way they were taught by their parents, who were taught by their parents, go back like 10 generations, who were taught by the church.
I wouldn't accept that excuse for other things such as why somebody is racist, so why should I accept that excuse here? If you don't break the pattern of stupidity, you are just as guilty as those before you.
Until that way of thinking dies down completely, respect those who still think like that, even if they are wrong in your opinion.
If they meet one of two conditions, I will gladly censor myself.
Eventually someone in their family will have the same thoughts as you, with or without your help.
That's not good enough. That is why slavery wasn't outlawed until Lincoln. They felt as though it was dying out, and that eventually it would just go away. Well, that didn't happen. It took action (albeit from a bit of a tyrant) to bring it to an end.
I don't see the contradiction, by the way. Changing my views after a considerable amount of thinking is consistent for me.
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I feel as though Frezal has brought up the better points in this debate. :gawe:
fixed?
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Frezal is winning :gawe:
While that is certainly flattering to hear...er..read, it sort of detracts from an otherwise intelligent conversation. It can cause the affirmative side to get riled up and make logical or other mistakes.
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Well he is arguing the easier side...
I'm not quite sure what we are arguing anymore. Is it that you, frezal, should refrain from swearing, why swearing is offensive, or what?
What it comes down to is how you want people to look at you. If a hardcore church-goer see's you swearing, they think of you as sinful. If you were to start swearing your head off in this debate, people would see you as not in control and easily angered. If a parent or elder sees you they think of you as impudent with little respect.
However, I agree with your point that you can swear if you want. It just comes down to how you want to present yourself.
So, technically, you win this debate, even though the conclusion is a subjective one. Gratz, and thanks for the debate.
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I'm not quite sure what we are arguing anymore. Is it that you, frezal, should refrain from swearing, why swearing is offensive, or what?
I was really hoping to read why these words offend you on a personal level. Unfortunately, it seems as though you oppose these words simply because the authority figures in your life say that they're forbidden.
What it comes down to is how you want people to look at you. If a hardcore church-goer see's you swearing, they think of you as sinful.
The opinions of hardcore church-goers don't matter to me. I view them as primitive people, but that's another debate.
If you were to start swearing your head off in this debate, people would see you as not in control and easily angered.
It doesn't take swear words to appear as though you're not in control. You may have been to young to remember this, but in the 2004 democratic primaries, Howard Dean was favored to win. Then he made the mistake doing what is now known as the "Dean Scream". No, he didn't "curse". He let out a noise that is not in any known language. After that, people viewed him as hot-headed. So I contend that it's not necessarily the word choice, but how the words are used. (Or non-words, in Howard Dean's case.)
If a parent or elder sees you they think of you as impudent with little respect.
And I would view them as a hypocrite as they most likely "swear" as well.
However, I agree with your point that you can swear if you want. It just comes down to how you want to present yourself.
Those who wish to judge me based entirely on arbitrary rules are not the kind of people I care about.
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Me personally? I have never brought my personal opinion into this. I really don't care if people around me swear, but I do care what people think of me when I swear. People can swear all they want around me. No offense taken at all.
I was just debating because I love debating. And to see if I could win one against you, lol.
See, you don't care about the views of the church-goers. So it's fine for you to swear. Again, subjective to what you want people to think of you.
Sure, there ARE other ways to show hotheadedness, but that doesn't mean swearing isn't one of them.
Well you wouldn't get a chance to debate them about their views because they will keep them to theirselves. Unless they call you an impudent disrespectful brat, but I doubt that would happen.
(See line about church-goers, it's the same point)
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Frezel is good at this
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Who's Frezel?
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Who's Frezel?
He's my cousin, Frezel McFrezalton.
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I don't get why swears and curses are bad anyway, cause it's just a word. If I told everyone to tell everyone that "carf" is a bad word that means F U and burn in hell, then it would be a curse, right? so since it's just a word, it should mean nothing, thats just the meaning society gave the words