Author Topic: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial  (Read 1710 times)

Offline Naryar

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Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« on: November 18, 2013, 09:26:52 PM »
WEAPON TUTORIAL: HOW TO PROPERLY SET UP YOUR WEAPONS


First I will state a few necessary, basic rules that all make a good weapon setup. Read them, understand them and draw your conclusions about them.

-The LESS COMPLEX the weapon system, the MORE EFFICIENT it is. In game terms, this translates to "when you are improving a weapon, make sure it does not have unneccessary elements".
Note on this: you probably are building complex weapon setups because it's original and cool-looking. There is nothing wrong with this building style, just know that you will probably lose your fights if you use complex weapon systems against simpler weapon systems. Simpler weapon systems tend to work better.

-The LESS EXTENDER WORK a weapon system uses, THE BETTER. Not only it makes it simpler, but it uses less weight for extenders, and therefore more weight for motors or weapons or drive = better weapon system.

-Hybrid weakness rule: The LESS WEAPON SYSTEMS a bot uses, the MORE EFFICIENT the bot is in each of these weapon systems. This seems obvious due to more weapon systems = less weight used on each weapon system, but it needs to be said.

As much as I love hybrids, hybrids aren't done to be stronger overall. Because they aren't. Hybrids (bots with more than one weapon system) are done to take advantage of the bot type rock-paper-scissors system by using several bot types. Or simply to look cool.

-Unless you are building a SnS, a horizontal spinner or a shell spinner, do NOT PUT WEAPON SYSTEMS AT THE SIDES OR BACK of your bot. Why ? Because you need to turn your bot to do it, therefore making it vulnerable while it turns. And because only 1 weapon system can be effective at the same time if you do not build them all on the front. And also because you need to add lots of armor everywhere if you want decent armor when using your rear/sides weapon systems, which eats up A LOT of weight.

-NOT ALL WEAPONS ARE GOOD. Several weapons are completely useless while a few others are far superior to 95% of weapons you have. I will go into more detail later on this.

There, now to go into detail in each category.

1-HOW TO BUILD A SIMPLE WEAPON SETUP:

Bad weapon setup:

(image to come)

That same weapon setup, improved:

(image to come)

What can you deduce out of these ?

-Avoid unnecessary extenders, as said before. These extenders between the disc and the weapons are useless, because they just provide weak points for the enemy to hit and remove your weapons. Also, you can use the weight to add more weapons or a stronger motor.
-Get the lightest extender work possible, UNLESS it makes your whole extender work fragile and easier to remove, along with your precious weapon weight. There is a extender strength/weight used on extender work balance, and you need to find out what balance do you want. See my extender work tutorial.

-Simple is better, as stated. Think and find the best design depending of your bot type:
-For all spinning weapons, including SnS: bigger weapon = stronger blows, tosses bots better BUT slower to get up to speed.
-For rammers : larger weapon = more pinning potential BUT easier to break through, and more weight on extenders.
-For pneumatic weapons : bigger weapon on 1 piston = less weapon power BUT less weight used on pistons and pneumatic components.

2- HOW TO BUILD PROPERLY HYBRIDS (bots with multiple weapon systems)

Badly build hybrid:

(image to come)

Well-built hybrid with roughly the same design:

(image to come)

What can you deduce out of this ?

-As said, do not build weapon systems all around: focus them on the front. It increases damage and front armor, besides you want to face your enemy with the more armored and armed part of your robot: the front in 99,9% of cases.
-Less weapon systems = more weight spent on each weapon system =  better hybrid. There is a point where the hybrid becomes completely useless because it's far too complicated and you just don't have enough weapons. Of course, the community will love it because it's a septuple hybrid, but it will fail utterly against any serious hybrid and even more against any non-hybrid.
-Focus your weapon system on ONE direction: the one which your enemy is. Simple, efficient.

3-WEAPON INBALANCE: USING THE BEST WEAPONS

Now for a short list of weapons which ARE worth it, in both Stock and DSL 2.1. To see what I am talking about on Concussion/Piercing, see next part.

Stock:
-Razors: Full Piercing. The most damaging weapon in the game. It's also the most fragile, so set them up in a position where they get minimum damage from the opponent's weapons. (See: popups)
-Irons: Middle ground. Mostly piercing, slightly concussion. Twice as durable as razors, but not as much damage. Good weapon overall.
-Maces: Mostly concussion, partly piercing. Maces are more defensive because they are larger than irons and therefore get hit first. Decent damage as well.
-Bear claws: Balanced between concussion and piercing. New Jersey approved ! These would be the best weapons of the game statwise... EXCEPT that they have normals, aka they only do damage if the claws hit the enemy. Excellent if you can use them properly, pretty bad otherwise. More specialized than other weapons & less effective as a general weapon that the rest.

DSL:
-Razors: Piercing pure. See Stock. The most damaging weapon of the game, but fragile. Piercing only. Don't try to go against a weapon rack.
-Beater bars: Concussion pure. Extenders that actually do damage... Probably the best Concussion weapon. Practical to use, small, can be used in mass. Mostly useful to wear down your opponent.
-Light/Heavy DS teeth: Balanced between concussion and piercing. Easily as good as razors damage-wise. The light one is better and unbalanced in DSL 2.1. Small, can be spammed, looks cool, very damaging. Undoubtably fragile and not to be put against tougher weapons unless you are sure to make it work.
-Sawblades: Full piercing. Sawblades are very specialized. Only to be used on spinners. Excellent to damage components that can't damage your sawblades back (including the enemy's chassis), but very poor at receiving damage. As such, best as gut-ripping shenanigans.
-Sledgehammers/DSL hammers: Full concussion. Inferior to other weapons due to heavier weapons being inferior to light weapons, but... there's one thing the different sledges do far better than the rest : punting bots for spinners, or wearing down enemies's weapons for rammers. All hammers are also excellent at ripping off razors and sawblades, unless they are on flails. If you are in an open arena or building a VS/HS, be sure to use sledgehammers if you want to throw the other bot out of the arena. However, in an elongated battle, it will lose to better weapons like the 2 former weapons (they are good against razors).

Now for the piercing/concussion thing...

Piercing: Loses to concussion, unless on flails, where it wins (depends of weapon charge). Piercing is better to damage things that don't damage you indirectly. Piercing beats piercing on flails, that said.
Concussion: Does indirect damage. Better against piercing weapons, unless you're on flails.

There, I'm pretty done, things are to be fixed soon.

Also,

To the people are are thinking "oh this is just standard it doesn't apply to me" this also applies to IRL, just not as strongly.

Why waste weight making an overly complicated weapon system with bad extender work when the weight saved by simplifying it could be used on the weapon itself or the aesthetics/functionality of the bot?

This needs to be quoted. Standard building methods apply to IRL. Building standards may be different, but building methods do not differ.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 12:19:11 PM by Naryar »

Offline Enigma

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2013, 09:39:02 PM »
well written, I'm in agreement with pretty much everything here.
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Offline MassimoV

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2013, 09:44:29 PM »
Might want to include DSL Hammers when you mention sledgehammers in DSL.

Offline Naryar

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2013, 10:09:48 PM »
Might want to include DSL Hammers when you mention sledgehammers in DSL.

they are included considering they're the exact same.

Oh wait, newfags won't realize it. Fixing that, then.

Offline cephalopod

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2013, 06:36:27 AM »
Seems like an excellent tutorial to me, can easily be added to that list of essential reads often given to most new builders :)

Offline martymidget

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2013, 06:44:46 AM »
To the people are are thinking "oh this is just standard it doesn't apply to me" this also applies to IRL, just not as strongly.

Why waste weight making an overly complicated weapon system with bad extender work when the weight saved by simplifying it could be used on the weapon itself or the aesthetics/functionality of the bot?

Offline Naryar

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2013, 07:53:28 AM »
To the people are are thinking "oh this is just standard it doesn't apply to me" this also applies to IRL, just not as strongly.

Why waste weight making an overly complicated weapon system with bad extender work when the weight saved by simplifying it could be used on the weapon itself or the aesthetics/functionality of the bot?

this, so very much this

adding it to the end of the tutorial

Offline Mr. AS

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2013, 03:00:55 PM »
i noticed that you missed a few weapons in the stock section, so i wrote up a small blurb about the less commonly used weapons, it also adds the exact stats for the other weapons. uses alphabetical order for sake of convenience.

Quote
Axe Head: 12 kg, 1000 HP, 0.9 concussion, 0.4 piercing. Does the most damage of any weapon in stock, but is also heavier than the rest of the commonly used weapons. Usually applied on rammers or pokers.
Bear Claw: 8 kg, 1000 HP, 0.8 concussion, 0.3 piercing. Balanced between concussion and piercing. New Jersey approved ! These would be the best weapons of the game statwise... EXCEPT they have normals, they only do damage if the front of the weapon hits the enemy. Decent on spinners.
Ice Pick: 8 kg, 1000 HP, 0.1 concussion, 0.8 piercing. Does less damage per KG than Bear Claws, but provide much more protection for extenders. They also primarily do piercing damage instead of concussion. Mostly used on hammers.
Iron Spike: 10 kg, 1000 HP, 0.1 concussion, 0.8 piercing. Mostly piercing, slightly concussion. Twice as durable as razors, but slightly less damage. Good weapon overall, most popular on spinners and rammers, rarely used on popups.
Mace Ball: 10 kg, 1000 HP, 0.5 concussion, 0.5 piercing. Equal balance between concussion and piercing. Maces are more defensive than Iron Spikes because they are larger and therefore get hit first, as opposed to the extenders holding them. Decent damage as well. Excellent on almost any bot type, except they cannot be attached without eFFeing in most cases.
Pole Spike: 8kg, 1000 HP, 1 piercing. The only differences between these and Razor Tips are that they are smaller, have more HP than razors, and only do damage at the very tip. As such they work well on bot types like rammers and pokers, where the tips of the weapons hit the opponent. The longer Pole Spikes do NOT do more damage.
Pointy Tip: 8 kg, 1000 HP, 1 piercing. Simply a thicker Pole Spike. Cannot be attached without eFFeing in most cases.
Razor Tip: 7 kg, 500 HP, 1 Piercing. Has the highest damage per KG in the game. It's also the lightest and most fragile, so set them up in a position where they get minimum damage from the opponent's weapons, such as popups.

feel free to edit it as you please.
Stock / DSL / Ironforge / ASAI / RA2: Retooled
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Offline Sage

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2013, 10:45:56 PM »
The amount of material new members have to read is becoming pretty damn large.

Someone should just compile everything into an RA2 bible.
You got my vote for RA2 Wizard. Always and forever.

Offline MassimoV

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Re: Naryar's Weapon Tutorial
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2013, 10:47:28 PM »
"In the beginning, there was only stock and then Darkrat said, 'Let there be DSL!'"
-Razors 1:1