Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development

[cjbruce]

The 10March2020 Bleeding Edge Builds are up:

http://www.robot-rumble.com/bleedingedgebuilds/

Bonus!  @tashic got the scaling function working!  Scaling is only possible from the "Electronics" tab in the workshop.  To scale, use the hotkey "Shift-E".  It only scales the scaleable components, like shapes.  Motors, electronics, etc. are not scaled.  If you scale down, you could end up with components inside other components.

[cjbruce]

Re-uploading.  Apparently our server was full.  I had to delete some old builds...

[min440303]

We cannot unzip the file

[cjbruce]

We cannot unzip the file

Sorry about that!

Please try re-downloading.  Filezilla only got part of the .zip file uploaded before the server filled up.  I believe that both the MacOS and Windows .zip files were corrupted as a result.

EDIT: The MacOS .zip file should be 313 MB.  The Windows .zip file should be 311 MB.

[Hobo Droo]

The Windows .zip is only 267 MB and is missing a couple files.
 

[cjbruce]

Re-uploading again.  This time I changed the filenames slightly:

RR2-Windows-10March2020-BleedingEdgeTestBuild2

My internet connection is a little slow on uploads.  It might take a few minutes before they appear on your end.

PS - kix, I just verified that the Flipper Piston System isn't working.  I have no idea why.  The script is getting the control signal, and the torque and speed numbers are insanely high.  I will have to do some poking around tomorrow.

EDIT: The re-upload is complete.  They should be ready for download.

[min440303]

The scaling stuff is awesome! It will save tons of efforts to do some resizing stuff. Really appreciate it! Also, some issues that still might need to be done:

-Flippers don't work

-Old F30s' moving downward

-Looks like spinner wobbling makes the bot drive much slower, when Aftershock's spinner took certain damage, the bot just couldn't move even when the weapon motor was off.

-Motor's starting torque are still really bad, thus lifters, crushers, saws and hammers are useless. And spinners spins up extremely slow at the start no matter how it's geared.

-Spinners easily lose all its speed before delivering a hit.

-Equator's driving issue with F30s

-Lags when placing TP100 brushless

[cjbruce]

The scaling stuff is awesome! It will save tons of efforts to do some resizing stuff. Really appreciate it! Also, some issues that still might need to be done:

Excellent!  @tashic is a genius. :)

-Flippers don't work

Caveat Emptor!  I have done precisely zero tuning of the pneumatic flippers.  This is because we don't have a pneumatic system yet.  The amount of force and speed created by the existing flippers is purely fictional. :)

-Old F30s' moving downward

-Looks like spinner wobbling makes the bot drive much slower, when Aftershock's spinner took certain damage, the bot just couldn't move even when the weapon motor was off.

This is weird.  The COM offset should not have affect the position of components, except as far as the joint is being stressed when the spinner is spinning.

-Motor's starting torque are still really bad, thus lifters, crushers, saws and hammers are useless. And spinners spins up extremely slow at the start no matter how it's geared.

Caveat Emptor!  We don't have an electrical distribution system model yet.  All motors are set to 24 volts, except for the beetleweight-sized motors.  Robogames and BattleBots both have a 48 volt limit.  Robot Wars has a 75 volt limit.  I'm not sure what our limit is going to be.  Assuming we set it the in-game limit to 48 volts, any motor that can handle voltage higher than 24 volts will suddenly have twice the top speed and significantly more torque.  Torque is limited by the amount of current running through the motor windings.  You need to gear the brushless motor WAY down to increase its torque.  This is worthwhile, however, as it has a much higher top speed than a similar brushed motor.  Here's what I have so far at 24 volts (NOTE - these numbers are subject to change!):

The brushless is incredibly powerful overall (torque x speed at a given RPM), but you have to gear it way down to take advantage of the power.  Expect to gear it down three times as much as an Ampflow.

Caveat Emptor! - We haven't started on hammers and axes yet.  They are probably going to require pneumatics.

PS - I'm still working out the numbers on some of the newer motors.  In real life, Aftershock uses an LEM170.  It is a 7" diameter motor slightly smaller than an Etek, but quite a bit larger than the 4" brushless in the Aftershock rep.  For now, the "Pancake Etek" is the closest thing in game to an LEM170.

-Spinners easily lose all its speed before delivering a hit.

I'll work on this some more today.  There needs to be some speed loss, but I think it is still too much.  When I flip aftershock, I'm see KE losses of between 1%-25% every time it hits the ground.  In real life I think the numbers should be somewhere between 0.1% - 2%.

-Equator's driving issue with F30s

I am at a loss on this one.  I will need to do some more poking around to see what is happening.  I suspect it might be because the motor is dragging on the ground, but I'm not sure.

[min440303]

PS - I'm still working out the numbers on some of the newer motors.  In real life, Aftershock uses an LEM170.  It is a 7" diameter motor slightly smaller than an Etek, but quite a bit larger than the 4" brushless in the Aftershock rep.  For now, the "Pancake Etek" is the closest thing in game to an LEM170.

You mean LEM170 is the same size as Pancake Etek? That means my Aftershock rep is incredibly small to fit this motor...

[cjbruce]

PS - I'm still working out the numbers on some of the newer motors.  In real life, Aftershock uses an LEM170.  It is a 7" diameter motor slightly smaller than an Etek, but quite a bit larger than the 4" brushless in the Aftershock rep.  For now, the "Pancake Etek" is the closest thing in game to an LEM170.

You mean LEM170 is the same size as Pancake Etek? That means my Aftershock rep is incredibly small to fit this motor...

It is funny that you say that because I believe that Team Shock had the exact same problem.  I believe they intended to use a brushless weapon initially, but then went to the brushed LEM170 when the brushless ESC kept burning up.  They had to redesign to fit the larger motor.

[cjbruce]

I have extrapolated the torque-speed curves out at 48 volts.  It looks like we are going to run into a few interesting effects/issues:

1. The AmpFlow A40-300 is only rated to 24 volts.  Unless we can figure out how to do separate batteries for drive (24 volts) and weapons (48 volts), the A40-300 won't be an option for robots wanting a higher voltage for their weapons.  We don't have any brushed drive motors in the game that can operate at 48 volts.  I believe a lot of the heavyweight robot builders are running into this problem as well.

2. The ME0708 (or any of the really big motors) will exceed the current capacity of the available ESCs at 48 volts.  This means we will need to put on-off solenoids into the game for the really big motors.  They will only be controllable by an on-off toggle switch at 48 volts, and won't be reversible.

3. At 48 volts, the brushless motor is current-limited for most of its operating range.  This means it will provide the same 8.5 Nm of torque all the way up to 20,000 RPM.  A solenoid-operated ME0708 will provide 70 Nm of torque at the start, but will really rapidly drop off.

 

[CodeSilver23]

I have extrapolated the torque-speed curves out at 48 volts.  It looks like we are going to run into a few interesting effects/issues:

1. The AmpFlow A40-300 is only rated to 24 volts.  Unless we can figure out how to do separate batteries for drive (24 volts) and weapons (48 volts), the A40-300 won't be an option for robots wanting a higher voltage for their weapons.  We don't have any brushed drive motors in the game that can operate at 48 volts.  I believe a lot of the heavyweight robot builders are running into this problem as well.

2. The ME0708 (or any of the really big motors) will exceed the current capacity of the available ESCs at 48 volts.  This means we will need to put on-off solenoids into the game for the really big motors.  They will only be controllable by an on-off toggle switch at 48 volts, and won't be reversible.

3. At 48 volts, the brushless motor is current-limited for most of its operating range.  This means it will provide the same 8.5 Nm of torque all the way up to 20,000 RPM.  A solenoid-operated ME0708 will provide 70 Nm of torque at the start, but will really rapidly drop off.

  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]

Whats an IRL example of 8.5 Nm?

[kix]

Maybe for the crude voltage system? Where you can just set the voltage in electronics section. Or differently, atm receivers have set voltage to them? Ik its not realistic at all, but again, until the real system is out it could work temporarily

I have other game related ideas for you that i could pm

[cjbruce]

I have extrapolated the torque-speed curves out at 48 volts.  It looks like we are going to run into a few interesting effects/issues:

3. At 48 volts, the brushless motor is current-limited for most of its operating range.  This means it will provide the same 8.5 Nm of torque all the way up to 20,000 RPM.  A solenoid-operated ME0708 will provide 70 Nm of torque at the start, but will really rapidly drop off.

Whats an IRL example of 8.5 Nm?

8.5 Newton-meters is equivalent to the following:

1200 ounce-inches
6.7 foot-pounds
75 inch-pounds

At a distance of 1 meter, the motor could apply a force of 8.5 Newtons (approximately 1.9 pounds).  At 10 cm, the motor could apply a force of 85 newtons (approximately 19 pounds).

In real life for most applications, you would gear the motor down to increase the torque and decrease the top speed.

If you wanted to be able to lift a 110 kg heavyweight completely off the ground with a 70 cm long lifter arm, you would need:

110 kg * 9.8 m/s^2 * 0.70 meters = 755 Nm of torque

To do this with a brushless motor capable of 8.5 Nm of torque, you would need a total gear ratio of at least 90 : 1.  In real life, this probably would mean 6-7 stages of reduction.  You would probably want to double this gear ratio just to give yourself some wiggle room.

The A28-150G speed reducer uses 3 reduction stages to achieve an 8.3 : 1 gear ratio.  We just hid all three chains inside the box so you can't see them. :)

EDIT: Changed the calculation to account for the fact that heavyweight robots are not point masses.  You would have to lift their center of mass, which is going to be about 70 cm from the axis of your motor.

[Team Lightning]

Maybe for the crude voltage system? Where you can just set the voltage in electronics section. Or differently, atm receivers have set voltage to them? Atm its not realistic at all, but again, until the real system is out it could work temporarily

I have other game related ideas for you that is game related

What you could do is add a tab for voltage. In the tab, you would select the battery, set its voltage, and then select the motors it powers.
EDIT: You could also make motors that have a higher voltage than they are rated for not work and spark like crazy.

[BATTLEMASTER]

Robogames and BattleBots both have a 48 volt limit.  Robot Wars has a 75 volt limit.  I'm not sure what our limit is going to be. 

I'm up for variable voltage limits that way different simulations can be run.

[cjbruce]

It is simple to set individual tournament limits.  I was referring to the limits on components.  We don’t currently have anything that goes over 48 volts in the game.

[min440303]

There's something weird about the fights, despite the motors being not as powerful as before, the fight itself has some problems that makes it not that satisfying.

-when a vs takes certain damage and starts wobbling hard, seems all motors become weak, and the bot drives much slower. If you turn off the weapon motor, the bot just barely move, and the weapon barely spins up if you turn on the weapon motor again.


-This is an issue on Aftershock, sometimes when the disc takes certain damage and lost some of its parts inside(looks like not all the spinners break in a whole), the spinner stops, and the bot gets drunk and starts floating like this.


-Spinner barely delivers hits, when it get to its oppoent, instead of releasing pushing power and doing damage, it always only gives out little energy or just comes to a complete stop, which turns those spinners into pushbots. On the other side, spinner does great efforts on its own bot, it's becomes accurate and powerful when hitting the floor and walls


-There's few moments that spinner is actually doing its job, moreover, sometimes it would suddently make the computer lag then come to a huge unrealistic hit that destroys everything.


-Self-damage is really high. I've set damage slider to 5%, and a spinner of 30 kg starts wobbling hard after 2 or 3 hits and totally breaks into pieces after 4 or 5 hits with its opponent remaining intact.

[cjbruce]

Just put up the 12March2020 bleeding edge builds:

http://www.robot-rumble.com/bleedingedgebuilds/

[Added] Added more conditions for sparks to occur when the spinner hits the floor. It seems to be tuned to occur very rarely though.

[Changed] Reduced the amount of energy lost when a spinner hits an immovable object to 1/10th its value that occured in the previous build. It is starting to feel a lot better now.

[Changed] Reduced stall torque and no-load RPM for the Motenergy ME0708 so that it is correctly rated for 24 volts. Added a "Max Safe Torque" of 34 Nm. This corresponds to roughly 400 Amps, which the motor can safely pull for 1 minute.

[Changed] Reduced stall torque and max RPM of Pancake Etek motor to be consistent with the real-life LEM170-D127 motor. Added a max safe torque of 50 Nm.

[cjbruce]

min440303,

Thanks for the extensive writeup!  Lots of great video to unpack here. 

I think I need to look in two main places:

1. The spinner collision handler code.  I need to make spinner hits more likely to register as a "good hit".  Right now it is too likely that a "glancing blow" will be registered when a spinner hits an opponent.  Glancing blows don't do a whole lot.  They should throw sparks, but even that isn't happening much.
2. The spinner weapon breakage code.  I need to consolidate damage so that all damage is taken by the entire spinner.  Right now it is still possible to break off a piece of the spinner and have it get lodged inside the robot.