Poll

What do you like doing most in RA2/RA3/robot combat games?

Building robots
Local single player battles with manually-controlled robots
Local multiplayer battles  with manually-controlled robots (PvP with controllers or a shared keyboard)
AI-only tournament battles
Other?  Please comment below.

Author Topic: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development  (Read 187471 times)

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #460 on: April 07, 2019, 08:43:06 AM »


Here's a screenshot showing the assignment of a left motor.

Offline kix

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #461 on: April 07, 2019, 08:47:40 AM »
Im the test bot area (after i press the controller icon

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #462 on: April 07, 2019, 09:34:21 AM »
Im the test bot area (after i press the controller icon

The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe the wheels aren’t attached to the axle correctly.  Is it possible that they are affixed to the body of the motor instead?  Maybe try mounting a motor vertically, then attaching a bar spinner to the axle, then calling the motor a drive motor?

« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 11:24:52 AM by cjbruce »

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #463 on: April 08, 2019, 08:38:24 AM »
This one goes out to all of the AI programmers in the crowd.  I need your help!  Please let me know if I am missing anything!

The following is a list of all of the inputs I think an AI would need to make decisions on which tactic to choose:

1. position and rotation of self (in 3D world space)
2. position and rotation of nearest enemy (in 3D world space)
3. position of nearest waypoint from navmesh (in 3D world space)
[Example: Distance to nearest enemy is computed using #1 and #2.]
4. list of our own motors
5. list of our own smart zones
[Example: If all of our weapon motors are gone, then switch to shoving.]
6. location of nearest edge
[Used for pushing battles.]
7. location of scoring zone
[Used for "king of the hill" arenas.]
8. time of my last good hit on enemy
[To decide if my attacks are working.]
9. self immobile time
10. self isImmobile
11. nearest enemy immobile time

If we do this right, everything that an AI needs could be derived from the above inputs. 

Am I missing anything?

« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 09:11:06 AM by cjbruce »

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #464 on: April 08, 2019, 08:42:43 AM »
Im the test bot area (after i press the controller icon

The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe the wheels aren’t attached to the axle correctly.  Is it possible that they are affixed to the body of the motor instead?  Maybe try mounting a motor vertically, then attaching a bar spinner to the axle, then calling the motor a drive motor?

(Image removed from quote.)
I did the same thing for my bot IronTail. Works great.


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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #465 on: April 08, 2019, 10:24:59 AM »
The following is a list of all of the inputs I think an AI would need to make decisions on which tactic to choose:

There should probably be a separate item between 5 & 6 that checks for the currently attainable win condition (so as to not waste processing power on edge location on closed arenas and whatnot).

But to be honest, while a list is nice and all, it's kinda hard to see the whole picture without those fitting in multiple flowcharts (immobility checker should run concurrently with the other combat functions, for example).
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #466 on: April 08, 2019, 10:58:17 AM »
The following is a list of all of the inputs I think an AI would need to make decisions on which tactic to choose:

There should probably be a separate item between 5 & 6 that checks for the currently attainable win condition (so as to not waste processing power on edge location on closed arenas and whatnot).

But to be honest, while a list is nice and all, it's kinda hard to see the whole picture without those fitting in multiple flowcharts (immobility checker should run concurrently with the other combat functions, for example).

Nice catch on currently available win conditions.  I hadn't thought of that.  To be honest, we have been putting off thinking about arenas until the beta.

The whole picture doesn't exist yet.  Right now the default AI miniscript simply drives toward the nearest enemy and presses button1 when close.  All we need at the moment are the inputs to the system.  A decision making process will come once the inputs are fairly stable. 

Of course we can always add more inputs as necessary, but I was hoping to capture as many as possible as a starting point before we start writing default code.

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #467 on: April 08, 2019, 12:03:39 PM »
The following is a list of all of the inputs I think an AI would need to make decisions on which tactic to choose:

There should probably be a separate item between 5 & 6 that checks for the currently attainable win condition (so as to not waste processing power on edge location on closed arenas and whatnot).

But to be honest, while a list is nice and all, it's kinda hard to see the whole picture without those fitting in multiple flowcharts (immobility checker should run concurrently with the other combat functions, for example).

Here's what I have so far.

Possible win conditions:
1. Last robot standing (KO)
2. Most points when time runs out
3. Out of the arena (tabletop)
4. King of the Hill (points scored per second spent in target area)

I imagine that #1 and #2 would always be active.  #3 and #4 would only be true for certain arenas.

Offline F1Krazy

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #468 on: April 08, 2019, 01:24:23 PM »
This one goes out to all of the AI programmers in the crowd.  I need your help!  Please let me know if I am missing anything!

The following is a list of all of the inputs I think an AI would need to make decisions on which tactic to choose:

1. position and rotation of self (in 3D world space)
2. position and rotation of nearest enemy (in 3D world space)
3. position of nearest waypoint from navmesh (in 3D world space)
[Example: Distance to nearest enemy is computed using #1 and #2.]
4. list of our own motors
5. list of our own smart zones
[Example: If all of our weapon motors are gone, then switch to shoving.]
6. location of nearest edge
[Used for pushing battles.]
7. location of scoring zone
[Used for "king of the hill" arenas.]
8. time of my last good hit on enemy
[To decide if my attacks are working.]
9. self immobile time
10. self isImmobile
11. nearest enemy immobile time

If we do this right, everything that an AI needs could be derived from the above inputs. 

Am I missing anything?
Maybe, for robots with CO2, how much they have left? So if they start running out, maybe they prioritise self-righting over mindlessly swinging at anything in the vicinity, and when they run out, they know to stop firing the weapon. Robots in RA2 will keep firing their pistons long after their CO2 has run out.

Also maybe a list of arena hazards (for avoidance and/or shoving opponents towards them)? Or does that come under "edges"?
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #469 on: April 08, 2019, 01:33:01 PM »
This one goes out to all of the AI programmers in the crowd.  I need your help!  Please let me know if I am missing anything!

The following is a list of all of the inputs I think an AI would need to make decisions on which tactic to choose:

1. position and rotation of self (in 3D world space)
2. position and rotation of nearest enemy (in 3D world space)
3. position of nearest waypoint from navmesh (in 3D world space)
[Example: Distance to nearest enemy is computed using #1 and #2.]
4. list of our own motors
5. list of our own smart zones
[Example: If all of our weapon motors are gone, then switch to shoving.]
6. location of nearest edge
[Used for pushing battles.]
7. location of scoring zone
[Used for "king of the hill" arenas.]
8. time of my last good hit on enemy
[To decide if my attacks are working.]
9. self immobile time
10. self isImmobile
11. nearest enemy immobile time

If we do this right, everything that an AI needs could be derived from the above inputs. 

Am I missing anything?
Maybe, for robots with CO2, how much they have left? So if they start running out, maybe they prioritise self-righting over mindlessly swinging at anything in the vicinity, and when they run out, they know to stop firing the weapon. Robots in RA2 will keep firing their pistons long after their CO2 has run out.

Also maybe a list of arena hazards (for avoidance and/or shoving opponents towards them)? Or does that come under "edges"?

Good call about prioritizing CO2 for self-righting.  The game is pretty mindless about this right now, and flippers get themselves into trouble.

I was also thinking we might do something similar with heat and battery.  They aren't an issue right now, but heat and battery management are definitely something I have thought about including.

Getting "edges" from Unity's NavMesh system is really easy to do right now -- just a single API call.  It probably does make sense to categorize them somehow.  In the Test Arena, being shoved up against the railing is annoying, but not game ending.  However, being shoved into the pit means game over.

I'm thinking something like having a "pit" trigger volume:
1. Have the NavMesh system report the location of the nearest edge.
2. Place an invisible test sphere in that location.  If the test sphere overlaps with a "pit" trigger, then prioritize staying away from it at all costs.  If not, then don't worry about avoiding it.

Offline Pwnator

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #470 on: April 08, 2019, 02:29:51 PM »
I think the best starting point is to determine:

1. The processes that are active throughout the whole match (immobility check, enemy tracking/mobility check, win condition evaluation, obstacle evaluation that modifies the shortest path between the bots).
2. A default engagement tactic that is active only while mobile, armed, & powered.
3. The processes that are triggered by mid-match conditions (new engagement tactic when new win condition is determined, such as keeping distance when enemy is stuck, shoving when disarmed, evading when crippled/stuck/low on power, etc.).


Then from those processes you can derive the necessary data to build your functions upon:
  - Positioning and mobility status for the processes in #1
  - Battery, air, drive, weapon, & armor statuses for the processes in #2
  - Control signals that are triggered from the processes in #2 maybe a bit from #1


My engineering background is in microelectronics so I might be over-complicating things. Someone who has a strong background in control systems, feel free to correct me.  :smile:
Clash Cubes 1 - Grey Matter (Runner-Up)
King of Karnage - Sideshow Freak (Runner-Up, Best Engineered)
Rust In Pieces - Paper Cut 3 (Grand Champion, Most Dangerous Bot)
Wheely Tag Tournament - Ion Thruster (Grand Champion, along with Ounces' DiSemboweLment)
UK vs USA - Dark Striker (Grand Champion)
Rust In Pieces 2 - Claymore (Runner-Up, Favourite Bot)
BBEANS 6 - Infection 4 (Runner-Up)
RA2 Team Championships - Serious Business, Skeksis (Runner-Up, along with Scrappy, S_M, and Badnik)
RA2 Team Championships 2 - The Other Stig (Runner-Up, along with Scrappy, S_M, Badnik, 090901, and R1885)
Replica Wars 3 - Abaddon (Runner-Up, Luckiest Bot)
BroBots - wheebot & yaybot (Runner-Up)
Robo Zone 2 - Dipper (4th place, Survival Champion, & Best Axle Bot)
ARBBC - The Covenant (3rd place, BW Rumble Winner, Most Feared BW)

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #471 on: April 08, 2019, 02:47:43 PM »
I think the best starting point is to determine:

1. The processes that are active throughout the whole match (immobility check, enemy tracking/mobility check, win condition evaluation, obstacle evaluation that modifies the shortest path between the bots).
2. A default engagement tactic that is active only while mobile, armed, & powered.
3. The processes that are triggered by mid-match conditions (new engagement tactic when new win condition is determined, such as keeping distance when enemy is stuck, shoving when disarmed, evading when crippled/stuck/low on power, etc.).


Then from those processes you can derive the necessary data to build your functions upon:
  - Positioning and mobility status for the processes in #1
  - Battery, air, drive, weapon, & armor statuses for the processes in #2
  - Control signals that are triggered from the processes in #2 maybe a bit from #1


My engineering background is in microelectronics so I might be over-complicating things. Someone who has a strong background in control systems, feel free to correct me.  :smile:

Not a bad approach.  The outputs are all set now (4 analog axes + 4 digital buttons), and I'm getting close to done with the list of inputs (see above).

Once outputs and inputs are set, it will be a matter of building an AI system using the given set of inputs and outputs.  That's the hard work, but it is also something that can be done over a matter of months or years because all of the code will be written in miniscript, and under the direct control of the individual player.

I fully expect that the logic will evolve over time as players come up with new ways to tackle AI.  Maybe one player will entirely ditch the existing state machine and come up with a behavior tree or utility based system that completely dominates.

All of the AI code will live in the .RR2Bot file, so when you share your robot, you are sharing all of its AI code as well.  You will be able to copy-paste code to and from www.gametechmods.com.  I can't wait to see what people post here on the forums. :)

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #472 on: April 09, 2019, 02:19:54 PM »
Thank you to everyone for providing feedback on AI.  Based on your feedback, I am rewriting all of the AI inputs from scratch, this time cribbing off of the RA2 python files.  I’m going to try to make a 1:1 match so that it should be relatively easy to transfer over the existing RA2 AI to the new game.

Please note that miniscript is an entirely different language than the python used in RA2, but it should be close enough.

Offline Badger

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #473 on: April 09, 2019, 05:41:15 PM »
I think it's important to understand why AI is important in RA2. It acts as a way to fairly battle bots in lieu of multiplayer. It's a bandage on the problem of the game's netcode being so bad as to be unfit for purpose. As player vs AI fights are unfair, the only way to have a fair fight in RA2 between 2 player created bots is to have an AI battle between both. The problem with this is that it leaves out a large component of what makes real battles interesting, which is the battle of driver vs driver as well as bot vs bot.

What I'm hinting at is that it might be worth looking into multiplayer over an AI scripting language. I don't want to come off as though I think I'm entitled to decide what you should/shouldn't prioritize in the game, but I think chasing this AI system might not be wise, looking through the lens of a player. RA2 already does this well, what we're missing as a community is multiplayer. Unfortunately I'd assume that multiplayer would be a lot more complex on the developer side than an AI system.
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Offline Billy5545

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #474 on: April 09, 2019, 05:53:34 PM »
I think it's important to understand why AI is important in RA2. It acts as a way to fairly battle bots in lieu of multiplayer. It's a bandage on the problem of the game's netcode being so bad as to be unfit for purpose. As player vs AI fights are unfair, the only way to have a fair fight in RA2 between 2 player created bots is to have an AI battle between both. The problem with this is that it leaves out a large component of what makes real battles interesting, which is the battle of driver vs driver as well as bot vs bot.

What I'm hinting at is that it might be worth looking into multiplayer over an AI scripting language. I don't want to come off as though I think I'm entitled to decide what you should/shouldn't prioritize in the game, but I think chasing this AI system might not be wise, looking through the lens of a player. RA2 already does this well, what we're missing as a community is multiplayer. Unfortunately I'd assume that multiplayer would be a lot more complex on the developer side than an AI system.
Honestly, I think that maybe Parsec can work rather than an in built multi-player system

Offline Badger

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #475 on: April 09, 2019, 06:01:01 PM »
I think it's important to understand why AI is important in RA2. It acts as a way to fairly battle bots in lieu of multiplayer. It's a bandage on the problem of the game's netcode being so bad as to be unfit for purpose. As player vs AI fights are unfair, the only way to have a fair fight in RA2 between 2 player created bots is to have an AI battle between both. The problem with this is that it leaves out a large component of what makes real battles interesting, which is the battle of driver vs driver as well as bot vs bot.

What I'm hinting at is that it might be worth looking into multiplayer over an AI scripting language. I don't want to come off as though I think I'm entitled to decide what you should/shouldn't prioritize in the game, but I think chasing this AI system might not be wise, looking through the lens of a player. RA2 already does this well, what we're missing as a community is multiplayer. Unfortunately I'd assume that multiplayer would be a lot more complex on the developer side than an AI system.
Honestly, I think that maybe Parsec can work rather than an in built multi-player system
I disagree. Again, I think Parsec is just a bandaid, and not a particularly useful one looking at its lack of adoption for RA2, which would seemingly be the ideal scenario for the service. It has several issues, such as it being inherently unfair (the host has a sizeable latency advantage), being a pain in the ass both to set up the service and to set up bots and controls and relying on very solid network speeds. These issues combine to result in it barely being used in GTM as of late.
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #476 on: April 09, 2019, 09:31:40 PM »
I think it's important to understand why AI is important in RA2. It acts as a way to fairly battle bots in lieu of multiplayer. It's a bandage on the problem of the game's netcode being so bad as to be unfit for purpose. As player vs AI fights are unfair, the only way to have a fair fight in RA2 between 2 player created bots is to have an AI battle between both. The problem with this is that it leaves out a large component of what makes real battles interesting, which is the battle of driver vs driver as well as bot vs bot.

What I'm hinting at is that it might be worth looking into multiplayer over an AI scripting language. I don't want to come off as though I think I'm entitled to decide what you should/shouldn't prioritize in the game, but I think chasing this AI system might not be wise, looking through the lens of a player. RA2 already does this well, what we're missing as a community is multiplayer. Unfortunately I'd assume that multiplayer would be a lot more complex on the developer side than an AI system.
Honestly, I think that maybe Parsec can work rather than an in built multi-player system
I disagree. Again, I think Parsec is just a bandaid, and not a particularly useful one looking at its lack of adoption for RA2, which would seemingly be the ideal scenario for the service. It has several issues, such as it being inherently unfair (the host has a sizeable latency advantage), being a pain in the ass both to set up the service and to set up bots and controls and relying on very solid network speeds. These issues combine to result in it barely being used in GTM as of late.

Badger, I really appreciate your honesty and your insight.  I know that players have wanted a good online multiplayer experience for a long time.  I think you have accurately summarized the years of frustration that many people have felt with RA2.  I hope that the following helps address some of these concerns:

First off, don't forget about local multiplayer!  A good, solid local multiplayer experience is one of our core requirements.  Heck, the game was originally conceived as a way for my students to prototype their designs and learn to drive robots against each other before we got to an actual arena.  Player vs player with game controllers is really fun.

I would love to create a great online multiplayer experience as well, but there are a number of technical and financial reasons why we have not pursued this:

1.  Because of the 400 Hz physics tick rate, doing non-buggy online multiplayer is extremely difficult without writing a deterministic physics engine.  I'm pretty good with physics, but this is well beyond what I am willing to attempt for the game. 
2.  RA2 and RA3 both attempted to do online multiplayer.  They had to scale back their physics tick rate quite a bit to make it work.  The result in both cases was a game that didn't have the physics fidelity that people wanted, and didn't have enough players to warrant investing heavily into making the experience better.  There are plenty of nonrealistic multiplayer robot fighting games out there already.  We wanted to build a realistic one, which meant sacrificing online multiplayer.

I am really excited about the new AI system, though I totally get it why I might be the only one -- You guys haven't seen it yet. ;)  We are bringing programming out from the modding shadows into the game itself.  Live coding a running robot is really frickin' cool:
1. You type some code.
2. The robot instantly responds.  It is that simple.

Just because you can use the old RA2 AI logic doesn't mean you have to.  That logic will be there as a starting point, but I expect that people will rewrite the AI to be more effective in battle.  Every player writes their own code, or they can modify something they found in a forum.  I fully expect that given the appropriate inputs and enough time, people will be able to write AI that will absolutely demolish a human player.  Remember that the computer runs at 60 Hz.  The fastest humans alive can sustain control signals only at about 5 Hz.

The bottom line is that I view RR2 as a member of a new genre of game.  It is building game AND a coding game.  You get to build and code your own version of The Terminator.

The community here proved the concept by modding RA2.  RR2 builds upon that and makes robot combat AI coding much more accessible.  I'm excited for it, and I hope that you guys are too. 

As for online multiplayer, let's get the game out and see how it goes this year.  It is quite possible that with Google Stadia, GeForce Now, and Blade Shadow all in the mix, we might well be revisiting this conversation again in 2020.

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #477 on: April 11, 2019, 03:01:19 PM »
Hi guys, quite enjoying myself so far, I must say.

Couple of questions about future plans.

- Belted motors, are they happening?
-Circular custom weapons?
-Wiring UI and process being more streamlined? (Which tbh Idk why I'm asking this, you already answered this).
-How soon can we expect creations vs AI fights?

Overall tho, cracking stuff, I've been messing around in the multilayered chassis creation section for hours alone!

Cheers, I'll be posting some creations in the other thread once I get stuff ready <3
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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #478 on: April 11, 2019, 05:19:24 PM »
Been messing around in RR2 trying to learn the ropes of the botlab and everything, and have been having some fun trying to recreate my RA2 bots.

I did Speed Demon, and a rudimentary version of Sabre first, and put them up against each other in an AI vs AI fight (pretty cool that the AI just automatically knew how to drive them with 0 messing around too )



Then this fight got me wondering if there was any way to make some kind of flipper with what's currently in the game (no pneumatics etc), so I got talking to Hoppin, and dabbling around with spin motors, and I managed to get something to work. It's super weak (kinda series 3 Firestorm levels of power) but it's enough to overturn other bots, and it should work for self righting too (though in this clip Earthquake sitting on top of me prevented that). It won't work with AI, but for player driven bots having a way to make even a super weak flipper is pretty neat I thought.

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #479 on: April 11, 2019, 05:31:37 PM »
Been messing around in RR2 trying to learn the ropes of the botlab and everything, and have been having some fun trying to recreate my RA2 bots.

I did Speed Demon, and a rudimentary version of Sabre first, and put them up against each other in an AI vs AI fight (pretty cool that the AI just automatically knew how to drive them with 0 messing around too )



Then this fight got me wondering if there was any way to make some kind of flipper with what's currently in the game (no pneumatics etc), so I got talking to Hoppin, and dabbling around with spin motors, and I managed to get something to work. It's super weak (kinda series 3 Firestorm levels of power) but it's enough to overturn other bots, and it should work for self righting too (though in this clip Earthquake sitting on top of me prevented that). It won't work with AI, but for player driven bots having a way to make even a super weak flipper is pretty neat I thought.



Dayum even on this Sabare seems to outwedge an opponent with ease. Speed Demon looks nice too.