Poll

What do you like doing most in RA2/RA3/robot combat games?

Building robots
Local single player battles with manually-controlled robots
Local multiplayer battles  with manually-controlled robots (PvP with controllers or a shared keyboard)
AI-only tournament battles
Other?  Please comment below.

Author Topic: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development  (Read 134151 times)

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2280 on: May 30, 2020, 08:50:08 AM »
Somewhere in the range of 8:1 to 12:1.

I think I'm okay with slower driving.  I'm old. :)

Also, I didn't mention it before, but temperatures will be higher in this build.  I increased the room temperature to 40 degrees. I simultaneously increased the temperature limit of the windings to 155.  You should have a lot more room before your windings overheat.
Ya it should be. As spinner bites became a thing, everytime a spinner hits the floor the temp gets much higher. Especially for verts, sometimes a vert has to hit the floor over 5 times to self-right, although those are small bites, the temp goes up pretty fast. Not sure if it's a thing but I'll just post it here.


95 degrees is 60 degrees away from the limit.  That is pretty typical for most motors nowadays.  It should be fine, unless you are seeing smoke...

Offline min440303

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2281 on: May 30, 2020, 08:57:42 AM »
Somewhere in the range of 8:1 to 12:1.

I think I'm okay with slower driving.  I'm old. :)

Also, I didn't mention it before, but temperatures will be higher in this build.  I increased the room temperature to 40 degrees. I simultaneously increased the temperature limit of the windings to 155.  You should have a lot more room before your windings overheat.
Ya it should be. As spinner bites became a thing, everytime a spinner hits the floor the temp gets much higher. Especially for verts, sometimes a vert has to hit the floor over 5 times to self-right, although those are small bites, the temp goes up pretty fast. Not sure if it's a thing but I'll just post it here.


95 degrees is 60 degrees away from the limit.  That is pretty typical for most motors nowadays.  It should be fine, unless you are seeing smoke...

Ya I mean, in a 3 minutes fight, this happens all the time. Mostly about 1 minute past there will be smokes everywhere and spinners stop.

Or...maybe spinner vs spinner just should be like this.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:51:21 AM by min440303 »
Mad but not mad.

Stuff I kinda done at

Offline CodeSilver23

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2282 on: May 30, 2020, 11:56:43 AM »
kix, I'm testing now with Green Banana and Bloodspill.  It is a really good combination of robots and has allowed me to focus on how two robots should behave when they hit each other. 

Some numbers:

A "satisfying" collision impulse for these two robots is somewhere between 50-80 Newton-seconds.  A weak impulse is around 10 Newton-seconds.  Above 120 Newton-seconds and the two robots go careening around the arena uncontrollably/unrealistically.

Our sweet spot for satisfying hits is around 60 Newton-seconds.

The problem was how to visually distinguish between "good hits" and "glancing blows".  If they both look the same, players won't know when they have really connected vs just scraping up some armor ineffectually.  I think I've hit upon a difference:

Good hit = robots get pushed away in the direction of the spin

Glancing blow = robots get pushed away from each other radially

All hits can now involve around 60 Newton-seconds of impulse, enough to be satisfying but not enough to break the game.  Glancing blows will be better for self-righting a vertical spinner.  Good hits will cause damage.
I feel like good hits happen most often when one bot gets a “running start” when going to hit its opponent.
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2283 on: May 30, 2020, 11:59:52 AM »
“Good Hits” haven’t been released yet.  They will be coming in the next build.

Offline CodeSilver23

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2284 on: May 30, 2020, 12:03:27 PM »
[Added] Added Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) to ArmourMaterial. This is a material property that can be found online for any given material. It will be used together with the spinner's current KE to determine the amount of bite required for a "good hit".  The idea is that harder armors require less bite.  You would have to bite really deeply into UHMW in order to get a good hit.
Wouldnt it be the opposite? I have a feeling that if RotatoR’s wedge was plastic, it would’ve died pretty quickly against Tombstone.
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2285 on: May 30, 2020, 01:11:58 PM »
Spinners rip right through soft materials, scraping them up but never grabbing hold.  UHMW would have fewer hit points, but you need to take a deeper bite to get a good hit.

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2286 on: May 30, 2020, 02:51:48 PM »
WhamettNuht has been busy making particle effects for everything.  The goal is to clearly communicate the distinction between a glancing blow and a good hit.  I can’t wait to show you guys!

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2287 on: June 02, 2020, 09:08:05 AM »
kix,
I have been fighting with stability for Green Banana’s 7000 RPM spinner.  I can’t get it to remain stable.  I’m at my wits end, and suspect that I might need to make some drastic changes to spinner physics to make it work.

Ugh.

Edit: min's Poison Arrow is mostly stable.  It has a lot of gyro lift, but it doesn't self-destruct like Green Banana.  As far as I can tell, the biggest difference is that Green Banana has a very small spinner.  Poison Arrow has a wide drum.  Two thoughts:

1. It takes less radial force to apply a stabilizing torque to a wider drum.

...or...

2. Things are wonky because 3000 RPM coincides with 50 revolutions per second.  At a 100 fps physics tick rate that means that the spinner rotates 180 degrees, computes physics collisions and restoring forces, rotates 180 degrees, computes physics collisions and restoring forces, etc...  At 3000 RPM, the physics forces are always one direction, then 180 degrees opposite, then back to the original direction.  This is the perfect recipe for resonance and exploding spinners.  It is even worse at 6000 RPM.  At this speed the weapon is always in exactly the same position, but with a massive speed.  This means it is always going to experience a huge force in one direction.

To permanently fix the problem I suspect that I will have to somehow keep the real speed of the spinner below 2500 RPM or so, while having a "virtual speed" that goes higher.  It is a mess conceptually.  It breaks physics.  I don't like it.  Agh.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 11:56:52 AM by cjbruce »

Offline CodeSilver23

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2288 on: June 02, 2020, 01:01:19 PM »
Maybe it would work to have the spinner itself have a rpm limit, but the game will continue to up the damage like the rpm is still increasing.
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Offline kix

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2289 on: June 02, 2020, 01:06:49 PM »
kix,
I have been fighting with stability for Green Banana’s 7000 RPM spinner.  I can’t get it to remain stable.  I’m at my wits end, and suspect that I might need to make some drastic changes to spinner physics to make it work.

Ugh.

Edit: min's Poison Arrow is mostly stable.  It has a lot of gyro lift, but it doesn't self-destruct like Green Banana.  As far as I can tell, the biggest difference is that Green Banana has a very small spinner.  Poison Arrow has a wide drum.  Two thoughts:

1. It takes less radial force to apply a stabilizing torque to a wider drum.

...or...

2. Things are wonky because 3000 RPM coincides with 50 revolutions per second.  At a 100 fps physics tick rate that means that the spinner rotates 180 degrees, computes physics collisions and restoring forces, rotates 180 degrees, computes physics collisions and restoring forces, etc...  At 3000 RPM, the physics forces are always one direction, then 180 degrees opposite, then back to the original direction.  This is the perfect recipe for resonance and exploding spinners.  It is even worse at 6000 RPM.  At this speed the weapon is always in exactly the same position, but with a massive speed.  This means it is always going to experience a huge force in one direction.

To permanently fix the problem I suspect that I will have to somehow keep the real speed of the spinner below 2500 RPM or so, while having a "virtual speed" that goes higher.  It is a mess conceptually.  It breaks physics.  I don't like it.  Agh.
I dont think i really have that issue, i will have to check it again, could be a build problem possibly?

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2290 on: June 02, 2020, 02:47:32 PM »
Eureka!  The instability occurred because Physics Tick Rate was set at 100 ticks/second.

So:

100 ticks/sec = spinners break at 3000 RPM
200 ticks/sec = spinners break at 6000 RPM
300 ticks/sec = spinners break at 9000 RPM
400 ticks/sec = spinners break at 12,000 RPM
500 ticks/sec = spinners break at 15,000 RPM

Edit:  I suppose we need to design the game so it runs well at 300 ticks/second.  The right answer is probably still to limit the actual RPM to 2500 or so, then fake it above that value.  Things that would need to be faked:

RPM
kinetic energy
angular momentum
motor back EMF / back torque
air drag

It is ironic to me that in order to run the game so that it will handle the cheapest spinner robots (beetleweight spinners at 15,000 RPM), you have to have a more expensive CPU.

Offline Somebody

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2291 on: June 02, 2020, 03:41:56 PM »
No worries!  You definitely have given me a few more things to chew on.  There is no thermal or electrical model for the battery or ESC.  I need to decide how far to go with this before it isn’t fun.

The Maytech motors are so tiny!  Wow!

Exactly why we went that direction!

And yeah, that does seem like a lot of curves and efficiencies and thermal modeling and math. Maybe if current limiting ends up modeled in, it becomes hard top-end limits for many controllers? Nobody will be having fun with their robot burning out 90 seconds into a fight due to overheating anyhow. So instead there would just be a hard upper limit. Like "Trampa VESC Mk3, Provides 60A up to 14S" or whatever the actual specs are. So then you end up just having a slow robot if you under-gear (like HUGE 2019).
I built that big robot on that TV show that time


Offline kix

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2292 on: June 02, 2020, 03:47:57 PM »
Eureka!  The instability occurred because Physics Tick Rate was set at 100 ticks/second.

So:

100 ticks/sec = spinners break at 3000 RPM
200 ticks/sec = spinners break at 6000 RPM
300 ticks/sec = spinners break at 9000 RPM
400 ticks/sec = spinners break at 12,000 RPM
500 ticks/sec = spinners break at 15,000 RPM

Edit:  I suppose we need to design the game so it runs well at 300 ticks/second.  The right answer is probably still to limit the actual RPM to 2500 or so, then fake it above that value.  Things that would need to be faked:

RPM
kinetic energy
angular momentum
motor back EMF / back torque
air drag

It is ironic to me that in order to run the game so that it will handle the cheapest spinner robots (beetleweight spinners at 15,000 RPM), you have to have a more expensive CPU.

Tbh, its 2020, and from what i have heared, either people can run it at 400+tick no problem, or they cant run it at all.
So there should not be a problem to run it at 9000 tip rpm without faking. The question is, how high can we go tickwise? 1000?

IMO faking is a good possibility, but im not a fan of it very much

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2293 on: June 02, 2020, 03:58:15 PM »
Part of our target audience is school computer labs and laptops.  With the optimizations in the newest build my Macbook Pro can handle it.  I need to test out school Windows 10 laptops.

We are putting the game on our local community college computers in a few weeks. I’ll know more then...

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2294 on: June 03, 2020, 07:07:51 AM »
The final(???) bleeding edge build is out before the next Alpha:

http://www.robot-rumble.com/bleedingedgebuilds/

This one has quite a few changes, mostly to support particles when you hit things with a spinner.  There are a few performance and stability improvements as well.

[Added] Sparks now occur for hits on Steel, Hardox, and Titanium.

[Added] Shard particles now occur for Wood, Plastic, and Metal.

[Added] Spark and shard particles vary depending on whether the hit was a glancing blow or a solid hit.

[Added] Added UTS for all materials. This is only used for bite. Hard materials are easier to bite. UHMW is very difficult to bite into.

[Added] Spinner hits discriminate between "Good Hit" and "Glancing Blow". Good hits push target in direction of spinner. Glancing blows push robots directly apart. [TODO] This will need testing and tweaking for all softer materials. Right now it is likely that small, fast drum spinners will not be able to damage UHMW at all. [TODO] Damage has not been implemented.

[Changed] Rewritten the Armour Materials List into a more logical order.

[Added] New armours: Cardboard, MDF, HDPE, Carbon Fiber, Expanded Steel, Decoration - Vinyl, Decoration - Faux Fur, Blueprint

[Tweaked] Reduced the default ambient temperature of all motors to 21 degrees. It was previous set for 40 degrees for testing purposes. 21 degrees matches the temperature of most indoor arenas. The reduction in ambient temperature will increase the heat dissipation of motors.

[Bug Fix] Titanium now has the correct density (4500 kg / m^3).  It was previously set to be denser than steel.

[Added] "Remove Plate" material now works!  If you add the "Remove Plate" material to a plate, its collider is removed.  You can now make slots in your chassis.

[Added] Colliders are automatically disabled for certain armors.  These include "Decoration", "Remove Plate", "Vinyl", "Faux Fur", and "Blueprint".  If you set objects to have these materials, everything will pass right through them.  This reduces the physics CPU load significantly for highly decorated robots.

[Changed] Small performance improvements done to the botlab highlight system.  The highlighter is now cleaner looking and more performant. 

[Changed] Check out the cool blue chassis builder!  This was a side benefit of the new shader we are using in the botlab.

[Bug Fix] Fixed a bug where not all of the child colliders in a spinner were being disabled. This was causing problems with some weapons, leading to some spinners being out of balance and not able to get up to speed.

[Tweaked] Default Physics Tick Rate is now set to 300 ticks/second instead. This is based on the game needing to support 8000+ RPM spinners.  The faster you set the tick rate, the higher speed the game will allow spinners to go.  The cost is that high physics tick rates are significantly more demanding on your CPU.  My MacBook Pro can only handle around 300 ticks/second in an AI battle.

[Bug Fix] Motor max RPM is now limited by the physics tick rate in GameSettings. The formula is max RPM = 27 x physics tick rate. This completely prevents the instability that occurs when RPM = 30 x tick rate.  NOTE - This means you need a fast computer to run a 14,000 RPM beetleweight spinner!

[Added] Added warning in spinner telemetry if spinner speed is too fast for the physics tick rate.


Offline WhamettNuht

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2295 on: June 03, 2020, 07:22:59 AM »
I also made Hubs and Tires lighter as per y'alls request :)
Damn I should probably put something fancy in this bit huh?

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2296 on: June 03, 2020, 07:25:36 AM »
This build is intended to be the summer tournament build.  CodeSilver, kix, would you mind taking a look at it with an eye for how it will play on Parsec/online?

After this build we are going back into development and adding new features and breaking things. :)

Offline min440303

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2297 on: June 03, 2020, 09:52:36 AM »
There's a thing I've noticed is the fight is even easier to get crashed.
Mad but not mad.

Stuff I kinda done at

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2298 on: June 03, 2020, 10:09:13 AM »
There's a thing I've noticed is the fight is even easier to get crashed.

Drat.  Can you show me how to replicate it?

Offline min440303

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #2299 on: June 03, 2020, 10:18:52 AM »
There's a thing I've noticed is the fight is even easier to get crashed.
Drat.  Can you show me how to replicate it?
ehhh I don't know how to describe, it just happens randomly. I'll try to record some examples
Mad but not mad.

Stuff I kinda done at