Poll

What do you like doing most in RA2/RA3/robot combat games?

Building robots
Local single player battles with manually-controlled robots
Local multiplayer battles  with manually-controlled robots (PvP with controllers or a shared keyboard)
AI-only tournament battles
Other?  Please comment below.

Author Topic: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development  (Read 187887 times)

Offline 3g

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1340 on: January 06, 2020, 04:46:03 PM »
Will you eventually add flamethrowers? It would be cool to have it, and be able to change the distance the fire can go, and colors.
Another thing, I think it would be a good idea to have eletrical damage like in RA2. Like, you hit something and a motor stops working, or a bot hits one of your wheels and that motor stops working. It's just an idea, but it would be nice tho

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1341 on: January 06, 2020, 08:37:57 PM »
Just put up a new 06January2020 Bleeding Edge Build:

http://www.robot-rumble.com/bleedingedgebuilds/

The purpose of this build is to test driving with your big spinners.  I reduced the mass of all big spinners by about 90% from where they were this should significantly improve the stability of the simulation for big heavy spinners.

In particular, if you have a shell spinner let me know how it drives with this build!

Okay. So... First off, I imagine you already know this, but this test does make spinners nearly incapable of scoring effective hits.

You are correct.  I removed spinner hit impulse response from this build so that it would be easier to isolate driving problems.  I was finding that for Mental Breakdown the spinner had an annoying habit of bumping into the ground and making the robot really hard to drive.  I will put the spinner hit impulse response back in once we are happy with the driving feel.

My verts handle so well they're actually harder to aim because of the oversteer. Circumvolution in particular is pretty ridiculous, it almost feels like it steers faster than without the weapon, though that's probably just a psychological thing from me over-correcting.

My more standard horizontals basically feel like they don't have a weapon at all, in all aspects of handling, despite one of them having a "32 kg" flywheel with the torque to spin up in under 3 seconds.

My shell and my ring both have basically the same problem; they feel like they've already lost their weapons, and their opponents don't notice their hits at all.

This feedback is incredibly helpful!  Thank you!

I think I might have just solved the problem for good.  I am adding mass to the chassis in the original location of the spinner.  The amount of mass added is exactly equal to the amount of mass lost as the spinner gains speed.  The idea is to avoid the gyroscopic instability by reducing the the mass of the spinner, but to maintain the weight and inertia of the robot overall.

Thank you thank you for testing with your robots!

New build is on its way tomorrow morning!

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1342 on: January 06, 2020, 08:45:57 PM »
While I'm here, I might as well also mention: This test does actually fix the suicidal torque when I use the srimech on non-wheelfixed versions of Panic Attack. Unfortunately it also makes it too flimsy.

The issue still remains though with it being effectively unable to steer when I gear the weapons low without the wheelfix.
The problem there being that with the wheelfix, they go completely limp when put under any minor shock from moving parts of opponents. With both gearboxes on each weapon set to 10/1 - meaning a total ratio of 100/1, the effective limit of a single gearbox - they move fast enough that it isn't an issue in battle.
But the wheelfix makes them unuseable at the more authentic speed given by setting each gearbox at 10/0.4 - a speed at which the torque would have little enough of an effect that I'd be able to use the srimech effectively.

So right now the choice with the bot is between being nearly incapable of steering, and being nearly incapable of self-righting.  :dead:

Do you have limits set on the srimech motor?  The wheelfix shouldn't actually do anything if that is the case.  If the code sees that limits are set, it should treat it exactly the same as if a wheel is attached.  I just checked both versions of Panic Attack you sent, and neither of them have a Spinner Mass Reducer -- both have limits set on the motor.  Both versions should behave exactly the same.

Offline CyarSkirata

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1343 on: January 07, 2020, 02:59:54 AM »
While I'm here, I might as well also mention: This test does actually fix the suicidal torque when I use the srimech on non-wheelfixed versions of Panic Attack. Unfortunately it also makes it too flimsy.

The issue still remains though with it being effectively unable to steer when I gear the weapons low without the wheelfix.
The problem there being that with the wheelfix, they go completely limp when put under any minor shock from moving parts of opponents. With both gearboxes on each weapon set to 10/1 - meaning a total ratio of 100/1, the effective limit of a single gearbox - they move fast enough that it isn't an issue in battle.
But the wheelfix makes them unuseable at the more authentic speed given by setting each gearbox at 10/0.4 - a speed at which the torque would have little enough of an effect that I'd be able to use the srimech effectively.

So right now the choice with the bot is between being nearly incapable of steering, and being nearly incapable of self-righting.  :dead:

Do you have limits set on the srimech motor?  The wheelfix shouldn't actually do anything if that is the case.  If the code sees that limits are set, it should treat it exactly the same as if a wheel is attached.  I just checked both versions of Panic Attack you sent, and neither of them have a Spinner Mass Reducer -- both have limits set on the motor.  Both versions should behave exactly the same.

Yup. Limits are set. Both do the exact same 90 degree arc, but the non-wheelfixed one runs better, while being kinda flimsy.

Make sure all four weapon gearboxes on the non-wheelfixed one are set to 10/1, to match the wheelfixed one, then put each of them in the test area and give the srimech a waggle.
If your simulation is running roughly the same as mine, then on the jan 6 build you should see the non-wheelfixed version twitch faintly (reasonably good), while the wheelfixed one pivots clear into the air (practically kills the robot in battle.)
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1344 on: January 07, 2020, 05:36:31 AM »

Yup. Limits are set. Both do the exact same 90 degree arc, but the non-wheelfixed one runs better, while being kinda flimsy.

Make sure all four weapon gearboxes on the non-wheelfixed one are set to 10/1, to match the wheelfixed one, then put each of them in the test area and give the srimech a waggle.
If your simulation is running roughly the same as mine, then on the jan 6 build you should see the non-wheelfixed version twitch faintly (reasonably good), while the wheelfixed one pivots clear into the air (practically kills the robot in battle.)

Shoot.  The work I am doing right now shouldn't affect the way these robots are handled, nor should it treat them any differently.  All I have been doing for the past two weeks has been spinner stuff.  I will try fiddling with the two robots as you have suggested to see if I can find any differences in the way they are reconstructed for combat...

I just put up the 07January2020 bleeding edge build.  Would you mind taking a look at the driving again for your horizontal and vertical spinners?

http://www.robot-rumble.com/bleedingedgebuilds/

For this build, I added the makeup mass to the chassis.  The overall mass of the robot shouldn't change even when the spinner RPM increases and its mass drops.  This should mean that the robot's inertia and weight should remain the same even when the spinner is spinning.

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1345 on: January 07, 2020, 06:08:54 AM »
Here's what I'm seeing for both "Panic Attack" and "Panic Attack WF".  I can't really tell a difference between the two versions.  Both versions were capable of lifting the 100 kg crate with both the lifting forks and the srimechs.


Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1346 on: January 07, 2020, 03:43:33 PM »
New build coming soon!

[Restored] Spinner collision impulse response is now back to 50% of the value it had in the late-December builds.  In those builds, all of the spinner's angular momentum was converted into linear momentum via P  = L / radius.  Converting only 50% of the angular momentum into linear momentum feels about right to me for "good hits".   Please let me know if hits feel good!

[Added] Added sparks for spinner hits against steel.


Offline CodeSilver23

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1347 on: January 07, 2020, 04:35:49 PM »
Oh that looks satisfying.
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Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1348 on: January 07, 2020, 07:20:05 PM »
The 07January2020 Alpha Build is up on itch.io!

https://robot-rumble.itch.io/builds

I'm really excited about this one.  Please let me know how driving and spinner hits feel!

Offline min440303

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1349 on: January 07, 2020, 09:35:46 PM »
Honestly the hits is kinda feeble to me.
And the sparks look nice but a bit weird
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Offline 3g

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1350 on: January 07, 2020, 10:39:14 PM »
So basically all of my bots have lost their gyro with this new build, even the ones with huge spinners. And it was working fine in the Jan 01 build

Offline kix

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1351 on: January 08, 2020, 04:41:45 AM »
Ok so tested the new build.
The good:
-Sparks actually are great.
The bad:
-Gyro is non existant
-Driving seems to be lower and more sluggish than the previous builds
-The hits seem to be mixed bag. My hits seem to be okay, i can hit the bot and the weapon will not slow down immensly. Some bots fail to do that
-When a disc/bar spinner hits the ground it loses all the torque and the bot doesnt even react properly, its like the bar weighs 0 kilos. Craplectric ant self right like that anymore, it just tumbles until it self rights, even tho the spinner is running at 150+ mph when it hits the ground.
-You can see this in the vids below:
Old build:

New build:

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1352 on: January 08, 2020, 05:16:46 AM »
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

'cause I'm thinking its SLIDER TIME!  :claping

I'm putting in a slider to control the maximum amount of spinner mass reduction.

I'm also thinking I need to increase the amount of kickback that occurs on a spinner glancing blow.  That should help a with the self-righting.

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1353 on: January 08, 2020, 05:37:03 AM »
Ok so tested the new build.
The good:
-Sparks actually are great.

I'm glad you like them!  They need some tweaking, but I thought they weren't bad for a first attempt.

The bad:
-Gyro is non existant

The slider should help with that.  I'm thinking that we put in a slider that goes from 0% - 50%.  In the 01January2020 build, I had minimum spinner masses of around 30%, depending on RPM.  In the current build my minimum spinner masses are around 1%.

-Driving seems to be lower and more sluggish than the previous builds

Now that the overall robot mass is kept constant, all robots should maintain their inertia.  We got use to the inertia dropping once the spinner got up to speed.  Maybe this explains the sluggishness?

-The hits seem to be mixed bag. My hits seem to be okay, i can hit the bot and the weapon will not slow down immensly. Some bots fail to do that

The hit response depends on bite.  If bite is small, then a glancing blow occurs and there isn't much kick.  If bite is big, then a "good hit" occurs and the spinner will stop instantly and create a large amount of kick (impulse).

-When a disc/bar spinner hits the ground it loses all the torque and the bot doesnt even react properly, its like the bar weighs 0 kilos. Craplectric ant self right like that anymore, it just tumbles until it self rights, even tho the spinner is running at 150+ mph when it hits the ground.

I'm planning to increase the kick on glancing blows.  This should help with the self-righting.

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1354 on: January 08, 2020, 06:02:55 AM »
So basically all of my bots have lost their gyro with this new build, even the ones with huge spinners. And it was working fine in the Jan 01 build

True!  The purpose of these recent builds is to see what happens when the mass of spinning objects is reduced to almost nothing.  This is true in pretty much every other game.  I think you are right -- having gyro is a good thing.  Maintaining mass at 100% does create all sorts of instability though, so it is a balancing act to drop the amount of mass until the problems go away.

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1355 on: January 08, 2020, 06:04:29 AM »
Honestly the hits is kinda feeble to me.
And the sparks look nice but a bit weird

Buffing the kickback! :)

I have some good spark footage I need to look at again on my phone.  Just had the kids do some grinding with the angle grinder -- I'm thinking of trying to match that...

Offline kix

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1356 on: January 08, 2020, 07:09:24 AM »
Ok so tested the new build.
The good:
-Sparks actually are great.

I'm glad you like them!  They need some tweaking, but I thought they weren't bad for a first attempt.

Well considering we didnt have sparks till now, they are really fine

The bad:
-Gyro is non existant

The slider should help with that.  I'm thinking that we put in a slider that goes from 0% - 50%.  In the 01January2020 build, I had minimum spinner masses of around 30%, depending on RPM.  In the current build my minimum spinner masses are around 1%.


Ayy another slider, i can mess with!

-Driving seems to be lower and more sluggish than the previous builds

Now that the overall robot mass is kept constant, all robots should maintain their inertia.  We got use to the inertia dropping once the spinner got up to speed.  Maybe this explains the sluggishness?


it kinda does, but if i gear up the motor (or down), in theory, the bot should drive faster, but in game the bot bounces

-The hits seem to be mixed bag. My hits seem to be okay, i can hit the bot and the weapon will not slow down immensly. Some bots fail to do that

The hit response depends on bite.  If bite is small, then a glancing blow occurs and there isn't much kick.  If bite is big, then a "good hit" occurs and the spinner will stop instantly and create a large amount of kick (impulse).


The issue is that there is no kick at all. You can hit the opponent, your disc will stop and the kick would be non existant. It just stops. In the vidd, Gaulin Hit Craplectric and the drisc just stopped,
Craplectric wasnt kicked, nor was Gaulin.

-When a disc/bar spinner hits the ground it loses all the torque and the bot doesnt even react properly, its like the bar weighs 0 kilos. Craplectric ant self right like that anymore, it just tumbles until it self rights, even tho the spinner is running at 150+ mph when it hits the ground.

I'm planning to increase the kick on glancing blows.  This should help with the self-righting.
I hope it does

Offline cjbruce

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1357 on: January 08, 2020, 07:49:00 AM »
-Driving seems to be lower and more sluggish than the previous builds

Now that the overall robot mass is kept constant, all robots should maintain their inertia.  We got use to the inertia dropping once the spinner got up to speed.  Maybe this explains the sluggishness?


it kinda does, but if i gear up the motor (or down), in theory, the bot should drive faster, but in game the bot bounces


I just found (and fixed) a contributor to the problem.  My previous approach to compensating for the loss of spinner weight was to add an extra gravitational force at the location of the spinner.  I forgot to remove this when I added the Makeup Mass to the chassis.  The net result of having both is that the gravitational force on the spinner was twice as strong.  In my "Tombclone"-style spinner this meant that the spinner was pulled down hard, and the wheels weren't getting any grip.  Driving was incredibly sluggish.  With the extra gravity force removed the driving went back to normal.

Depending on the location and weight of the spinner, this could have either a small or large effect on the driving characteristics of a given robot.

Offline CodeSilver23

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1358 on: January 08, 2020, 08:05:16 AM »
In theory, the less bite, the more sparks, and theyll also be propelled farther. In Kix's fight video, it looks like He's fighting with a saw...
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Offline WhamettNuht

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Re: Robot Rumble 2.0 - Robot Combat Simulator - Under Development
« Reply #1359 on: January 08, 2020, 12:28:16 PM »
The sparks are lovely! Might need a slightly higher threshold for hits that produce them, but I think they're much needed! I also think I found when a spinner is knocked off, if the sparks where being emitted as it was happening they remain where the part broke off?

Certain bots also seem to float/rock, as if they weigh as much as a feather?
Damn I should probably put something fancy in this bit huh?