BattleBots Season 2 Discussion Thread

[Thyrus]

I actually belive that beta could beat Tombstone.
And I hope that Bronco will win over Minotaur.

If Beta wins.. and Minotaur wins...
will this be the first time a televised event has two robots that are not from the country the event takes place?

[Jonzu95]

My bets are on minotaur. It's like SK Gaming of CSGO eSports. Basically the Brazilians took over the CSGO esports scene in just one year.

[RageTester]

Champ is taken out by chomp, finally 
Wonder if they should have more time for repairs between the fights... it's boring seeing broken bots enter the arena.
So good there is a 2 hour episode, cuz this episodes type of "action" isn't really worth the wait...

Can't wait to see tombstone take a hit on the tire 
Bombshell has too much parts, probably it was better idea to work more on a solid build...
Bronco is done if they can't toss minotaur out...

[Natef]

For the record this is the scoring system for this season:

Damage - 1 point

Control - 1 point

Strategy - 1 point

Aggression (with an active weapon) - 2 points

[Scorpio]

Welp, time for my obligatory opining for the RO16:

Warhead v. Minotaur: Should've gone with the dino head, Razer boys. I gotta say, that decap blow from Minotaur was something else; don't think I've seen a weapon fly off a bot that spectacularly since... well, I dunno (Chrome Fly doesn't compare). Glad Warhead didn't end up turned to dust though, it was nice that the Rioboyz held back a bit.

Hypershock v. Poison Arrow: Green Minotaur takes out another higher seed. I was actually kinda rooting for Hypershock here, but Poison Arrow just seems to have been the better machine. Really shouldn't have gone weapon-to-weapon, they may have had a better chance then.

Also, Poison Arrow officially has the best drone in the competition by virtue of surviving three whole fights and the rake.

Bombshell v. Red Devil: More out-of-the-box thinking saves MikeNCR for another round. The new aggression rules don't mean much when you can't hit the other guy, Red Devil. All in all, great strategy from Bombshell and a good defiance of the new rules.

Bronco v. Razorback: Listen, Alex and Reason. It was funny when you butt-stomped Chrome Fly, they deserved to be humiliated. But  doing the same thing against Razorback was just playing the coward's game. And not tipping them back on their wheels was just a dick move.

That being said, though, it does say something about Bronco's power that it can work perfectly fine as a front-hinged flipper.

Tombstone v. Brutus: And Tombstone does what it does best. Can't say I feel particularly sad for Adam "Late Hit" Bercu. Plus, no guns this fight. I am disappoint.

beta v. Nightmare: Two great bots enter, one great bot goes through. Both of these bots deserved to win this one. Either way, Nightmare definitely showed what it's made of before beta overturned it, having stopped the hammer. If that self-righter had been working, it would've won. Then again, there is Tombstone waiting on the other side, so maybe this was an act of mercy be John Reid.

Mega Tento v. Yeti: Welp, Tento got smashed. Yeti didn't tear the cover to tiny plastic chunks, but it sure did a number to Mega Tento. Plus, I kinda liked the eyepatch.

Bite Force v. Chomp: Bite Force should have gone with the jaws, then they'd probs still be reigning champs. At least I was 2/3 right with my prediction: Chomp got a lucky hit, and was hellaliciously unstable. Though, I feel Bite Force is just the latest victim of the new rules regarding aggression: it could've won that, or at least gotten a split decision, if active weapon use wasn't emphasized so hard. That being said, good for Chomp for redeeming themselves this year.

And my predictions for the rest of the fights:

Quarterfinals:

Tombstone v. beta: Tombstone could tear up beta, or beta could smash Tombstone. This one could go either way, really. Also, this'll be the chance to see the qualifier that never was from last year.

Chomp v. Yeti: Take my Bite Force v. Chomp prediction, and replace Bite Force with Yeti. I think Yeti has a better chance of pulling this off than Bite Force did due to both a more powerful drum and the lifting forks, so Chomp REALLY needs that lucky hit.

Bronco v. Minotaur: Don't think the buttwedge will save Bronco this time around. They'll need to do to Minotaur what they did to Stinger if they want to win, but I'm banking on Minotaur for this one.

Bombshell v. Poison Arrow: We have yet to see Bombshell's flipper in action, so I'm hoping it's sufficiently tanky. Kinda banking on Poison Arrow for this one though, sorry Mike.

Semifinals:

Semi 1: Yeti's kinda screwed either way. Tombstone could tear it to pieces, and beta can tank it and hammer it to death.

Semi 2: Minotaur will probably take out Bombshell. Against Poison Arrow, it could go either way.

Either final possibility could go either way; either drum could take out Tombstone or beta, but beta could tank the drums and hammer its way to victory, and Tombstone could do what it did to Brutus, albeit it'll have a much harder time.

[Kossokei]

not using weapon = not using weapon

doesn't matter if they have a working weapon or not, if they're not using it, they're not using it, and they lose points.

[ajprice]

Still think it's going to be Tombstone v Minotaur final. Although that means Beta won't win . It also means that Chomp won't, and in the process, hopefully be smashed to pieces, many many pieces (yes, I think Chomp is terrible and the woman really annoys me. Don't do that arm jaws thing on the walk in, your bot doesn't have jaws this year! Totally agree with the comment about it flipping around like a fish on land). Ok, rant over.

In the UK, Spike will be showing Battlebots starting with the 2015 competition on Sunday 4th September at 8pm. Nicely following on from the Robot Wars final on BBC this weekend.

[DeadGenocide]

Bite Force vs. Chomp still not as bad and unfair as the Typhoon 2 vs. Storm 2 Screwjob 

[Somebody]

Bite Force vs. Chomp still not as bad and unfair as the Typhoon 2 vs. Storm 2 Screwjob 

It was 12 years ago. Move on. Additionally, Chomp won that fight no matter the judging system.

[Urjak]

Chomp certainly deserved the win under this season's judging, and may have won under the criteria of previous seasons depending on how the aggression and strategy points were distributed (although I think Bite Force would have the edge in both aggression and strategy).

The better question, I think, is whether this is the kind of judging we want in BattleBots. In my opinion, Chomp basically got one good shot on a very fragile part of Bite Force (that chain would have been taken out by almost any hit), and then did almost nothing else of note the remainder of the match. Meanwhile, Bite Force went with a pushing strategy and took Chomp around the arena and into a couple of hazards, with no additional loss of functionality or even visible damage after Chomp's initial hit. One complication was Bite Force getting caught on its own chain, which allowed Chomp to get in a few hits (which didn't seem to do any damage—I still haven't seen clear evidence that it can do significant damage to an armored bot). The match then almost ended with Chomp laying on its side, the same position it easily spent half to two-thirds of the match in.

Again, the question is, am I really comfortable awarding a win to a robot that got one good shot in during the first ten seconds and then was almost completely dominated for the remainder of the match? I think that weaponless robots in BattleBots need to have a way of winning the judge's decision, and so far it seems like that's almost impossible (aside from Bombshell's near perfect defeat of Red Devil, although even then Bombshell got a very nice first hit).

[JoeBlo]

The better question, I think, is whether this is the kind of judging we want in BattleBots.

Now I dont know the answer to that.. but I know exactly why battlebots did these rules for this year..

Tombstone was the main drawcard / poster child for season 1 (2015) only for it to fall to a virtually (in comparison) weaponless robot, not that I am picking on biteforce here, most of us diehards accept this as a strategy but the bulk of viewers / casual fans would raise an eyebrow to this and they need the ratings to have the show survive.

[R01]

Saw Chomp vs Biteforce, if it wasn't for Biteforce getting stuck on it's own chain, then it would've been way close fight and another judged wrong fight in this season as Chomp wouldn't have got in other hits than the one at the beginning and the entire match was then controlled by Biteforce. With how it happened however, it was a win for Chomp althrough the judges decision should've been split.

The better question, I think, is whether this is the kind of judging we want in BattleBots.

Now I dont know the answer to that.. but I know exactly why battlebots did these rules for this year..

Tombstone was the main drawcard / poster child for season 1 (2015) only for it to fall to a virtually (in comparison) weaponless robot, not that I am picking on biteforce here, most of us diehards accept this as a strategy but the bulk of viewers / casual fans would raise an eyebrow to this and they need the ratings to have the show survive.

I've heard some people say that before and can see why they think that way, in a way ABC didn't want wedgebots, yet they still get wedgebots which "bypass" the rules. It's like Urjak mentioned, a question if we want to have judging like that or not, and it's a definite no for me.

Since not everyone knows the Season 2 rules:
In Season 1 you needed to have an active weapon, for season 2 this was changed in the following way:
-Only your Primary Weapon counts for this(so Disk-o's lifter isn't a weapon to them)
-Pushing a bot around and not using your weapon removes aggression points.
Judging is scored by giving points for aggression(2), damage(1), control(1) and I think maybe another factor? Not exactly sure.

Personally I find that system garbage, can't tell me that a rammer isn't aggressive, also yes, it's a good idea to slam your weapon into a fully running spinning blade, won't break it at all and there's totally not a reason why spinner killer wedges use simple shapes. Rammers and wedgebots are just part of roboteering, just like helping other teams is for most of them, but apparently producers just want drama(because yes, all those roboteers hate eachother) action(spinner vs spinner colliding) and destruction(because a match is so BOORRRIIING if parts don't start flying around), hey that sounds familiar, but look, in the end bots need those wedges against spinners and their system just won't work out at all, and if they really dislike pushing matches that much then they could stop a battle once the first weapon breaks- no wait there's still destruction after that- as soon as both weapons break.

The fact that they need the ratings to survive doesn't help it, but they aren't helping it either by being like that, just make sure that you have enough different bot types and show people that wedgebots and rammers can be powerful too and need good driving, instead they're just going for destruction.
Honestly this just smells like Robot Wars Series 7, you're having sentences like "enough technical talk, who wants to see the action?" from the presenter and now the two moderators are starting to talk down bots(see Biteforce, unless all that stuff was true but I doubt it) as well, I don't see this lasting too long and am honestly happy that they got way less ratings this time around, happens when you start treating a show like that. It's quite disappointing to see them go that direction after a very promising Season 1.

Doubt that they will change much about that, the people that they're trying to reach for views sadly don't have much intelligence to care about other stuff and with certain builders(so far Tombstone, Warhead and Chomp, all because it helps their bot) supporting the rules, they will probably say "see, they're ok with it as well, why change?" expecting to see more spinners now.

[MikeNCR]

-Only your Primary Weapon counts for this(so Disk-o's lifter isn't a weapon to them)

This is wrong. Aggression is scored based upon attacks with an active weapon, primary or not. In the case of the Disk-o fight, DoI only used it's lifter 4 times, with, from what I recall, two of those resulting in Chomp ending up on its side. DoI spent most of the fight using the lifter as a large shield.

7.6 Judges’ Determination of Match Winner
Certain criteria and methods are used by the Judges to decide a Match winner in the event a winner is not determined during the course of a Match (i.e., neither Robot is Incapacitated, Knocked Out, Disqualified, etc. during the duration of the Match).

7.6.1 Judging Criteria
The judging criteria uses four factors, each which is assigned a point value, as follows:

 Aggression – 2 Points

Aggression is judged by the frequency, severity, boldness and effectiveness of attacks deliberately initiated by a Robot against its opponent using its powered weapon(s). If a Robot appears to have
accidentally attacked an opponent, that act will not be considered Aggression. Consideration is also given if the attacking Robot is risking serious damage on each attack. Attacking with a wedge or other passive armor is considered to be a defensive action and does not count toward Aggression. Continuous attacks without using a powered weapon can reduce a Robot’s
Aggression score.

 Control – 1 Point

Control means a Robot is able to attack an opponent at its weakest point, use its weapons in the most effective way, avoid Arena Hazards, and minimize the damage caused by the opponent or its weapons.

 Damage – 1 Point

Through deliberate action, a Robot either directly, or indirectly using the Arena Hazards, reduces the functionality, effectiveness or defensibility of an opponent. Damage is not considered relevant if a Robot
inadvertently harms itself. Also, if a pressure vessel or a rapidly spinning device on a Robot fragments, any damage to the opponent will not be considered "deliberate".

 Strategy – 1 Point

The Robot exhibits a combat plan that exploits the Robot's strengths against the weaknesses of its opponent. Strategy is also defined as a Robot exhibiting a deliberate defense plan that guards its weaknesses against the strengths of the opponent. Strategy can also involve using the Arena Hazards to gain an advantage.

One thing that I keep seeing is people saying that a bot won a fight, but that the fight should have been a split decision, which makes no sense to me with how the fights are scored. Each judge awards 2 aggression points, 1 control point, 1 damage point, and 1 strategy point. If a bot clearly wins by a narrow margin (say by getting both aggression points and damage, while their opponent clearly took control and strategy) then you'd have each judge scoring the fight 3-2 for the bot that won damage and aggression.

A split decision should only occur in the closest of close fights where it's genuinely up for debate as to which bot won instead of a situation where a bot clearly won, but by a small margin.

Having fought under the judging criteria used for Season 2 I think it works fairly well. In one of the Inside The Bot podcasts Greg mentions that they may change aggression into "active weapon use" to make it more clear that the category is specifically measuring how well a robot brings its weapon(s) to bear in the arena. The redefinition on its own may fix a lot of the "odd" fights this season as it will be much easier for people that aren't intimately familiar with the rules to "get" how the fights are judged and the builders will have a much firmer grasp of what needs to be done to win if a fight goes to the judges.

[Badnik96]

my problem with this judging system is, if your weapon breaks you may as well stop trying. at least that's basically what it looks like based on what we've seen.

[MikeNCR]

my problem with this judging system is, if your weapon breaks you may as well stop trying. at least that's basically what it looks like based on what we've seen.

[R01]

my problem with this judging system is, if your weapon breaks you may as well stop trying. at least that's basically what it looks like based on what we've seen.

Wait, you're a forum user?!

I was going to mention the match as the one exception, since Red Devil couldn't get to use it's weapon so both didn't have aggression while Bombshell pushed it around and got control points. I don't know if running away from a bot removes points, but I think that's the best to do in such a situation unless you manage to break the opponent's weapon as well, as the only thing you can do is push and outdrive them, which will give you the control point but remove the aggression ones.
Apparently Nightmare got screwed over by the new Battlebots rules(probably applies for the 2015 ones as well) as well, apparently bots wouldn't be counted out if they broke in the last 30 seconds, it would just be a judges decision anyways, which Nightmare probably would've won. However I'm happy with how it turned out, rather have a fully working Beta fight Tombstone instead of a half broken Nightmare getting smashed apart.

[Badnik96]

you can't really use that as an argument, seeing as Red Devil never really got to use its weapon at all. What i mean is, even if you dominate the fight, if your weapon breaks and your opponent is able to use theirs, then you're just ****ed and there's nothing you can do about it.

[frezal]

you can't really use that as an argument, seeing as Red Devil never really got to use its weapon at all. What i mean is, even if you dominate the fight, if your weapon breaks and your opponent is able to use theirs, then you're just ****ed and there's nothing you can do about it.

That's why if your weapon breaks, you do like Bombshell did and prevent the other bot from using their weapon. It's a tough rule, but it's fair.

[jackster96]

Only just watched the episode. Glad with most of the results besides the chomp win not keen on the rule changes but on the positive side chomp will hopefully get ripped a new one by yeti.

[Shinkioh]

I'm honestly worried about the top armor for Yeti though.