Author Topic: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion  (Read 34597 times)

Offline cephalopod

Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #140 on: June 07, 2015, 05:18:59 PM »
Okay, that's cool, just wanted to put the idea forward to try and combat some of the failures of late.
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Offline yugitom

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #141 on: May 04, 2016, 11:24:57 AM »
With RA3 coming out not long from now, I have decided to start thinking about new tournament rules and regulations in order to adapt to how tournaments will more than likely be organised, which is non-AI, human controlled. Below will be my draft of the new regulations I have in mind and I would appreciate any feedback, even if it's a simple post saying, "that's alright with me." But, if you do not like something I have proposed, please feel free to tell me what you'd do instead or whether you believe it just doesn't belong there to begin with.

Universal Fair Play Rule:
  • No pinning (a strict definition may be needed but I think a reasonable person should be able to tell when they're pinning or not)
  • No 'hit and run' tactics
  • Avoid participating in a tournament if you believe your internet connection will leave you at a disadvantage (this allows for no-one to make the excuse that their internet connection was/is shoddy)

New points which a tournament host (hosting a human controlled tournament) must address:
  • How many times they will allow a competitor to disconnect before being DQ'd
  • How long competitors have to set up a time with each other and the host to record the match

For human controlled tournaments, hosts may, as a last resort, simply allow competitors to have a match and report the results back to the host via screenshot if the host cannot turn up to record the match. Similarly, if two competitors cannot seem to arrange a time, the host may, as a last resort, have the bots in the match be controlled by the AI.

There shall be increased tournament completion time for human controlled tournaments (as hosts now have to rely on other people.) Entry Level tournaments shall have 4 months to be completed and Major League tournaments shall have 12 months in order to be completed.

Entrant Liability Rule:
If a certain entrant in a tournament(s) displays tardiness more than twice, an entry ban shall be applied to them. I suggested the ban length, initially, should be perhaps a fortnight to a month and then repeat offences would incur more every time.

I know that looks like a lot but I have tried my best to make sure it encompasses any troubles we may find ourselves in if human controlled tournaments become the norm. So, after all of that, what do people think? I appreciate any and all feedback on this.

Offline Naryar

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #142 on: May 04, 2016, 11:44:54 AM »
a few points:

-pinning is the main tactic for rammers/wammers, hammers and quite a bit of gutrippers. does the fair play rule bans them outright ? that seems unreasonable.

-equally, hit and run should be a valid tactic for fast bots. isn't back-and-forth what rammers do ? (May not be exactly hit and run, though)

Besides, hit and run has no point unless you are very fast and agile and your enemy isn't. also there are no ranged weapons, apparently, so it makes it even less worth. Not to mention that hit and run tactics will just let the opponent being rammed if you follow him closely.

-entrant liability seems quite harsh. besides i think if someone is always late, people will become aware of it and stop wanting him in tournaments, so it will be an unspoken rule.

Offline Goon

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #143 on: May 04, 2016, 11:45:19 AM »
I feel like organizing and running live online multiplayer tournaments is going to be a lot harder than you guys think...

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Offline yugitom

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #144 on: May 04, 2016, 11:54:01 AM »
a few points:

-pinning is the main tactic for rammers/wammers, hammers and quite a bit of gutrippers. does the fair play rule bans them outright ? that seems unreasonable.
Rammers don't pin, they just ram people into walls. If they decided to stay and keep the opponent pressed up against the wall, I imagine there'd be no sport or fun in that at all.

-equally, hit and run should be a valid tactic for fast bots. isn't back-and-forth what rammers do ? (May not be exactly hit and run, though)
When I say hit and run, I suppose I mean more end game to secure a win (however, that may be tolerable) or constantly having small jabs at the opponent and quickly avoiding them for the rest of the match intentionally. Rammers hit and then reverse but then they come back for more, they don't run. A robot may hit the opposing robot and run around and try to find an opening, but avoiding the opponent for the entire match, in my opinion, is not a good display of sportsmanship and makes for a rubbish video.

Besides, hit and run has no point unless you are very fast and agile and your enemy isn't. also there are no ranged weapons, apparently, so it makes it even less worth. Not to mention that hit and run tactics will just let the opponent being rammed if you follow him closely.

-entrant liability seems quite harsh. besides i think if someone is always late, people will become aware of it and stop wanting him in tournaments, so it will be an unspoken rule.
I don't think it's harsh if someone is continues to halt progression of the entire tournament(s) due to their tardiness. Also, it's not a case of just avoiding people like that because, to be fair on entrants, tournament hosts must work on a 'first come, first served' basis, so anyone new to the forum wishing to start their own tournament won't know about their history of tardiness.

Offline cephalopod

Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2016, 11:55:39 AM »
Live tournaments work well in the GMod Robot Wars server, with arranged times and often just you participate if you're around. I'm looking forward to seeing if the same concepts translate to RA3.
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Offline kill343gs

Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2016, 12:30:27 PM »
I feel like we can't honestly hone in on problem areas until we've been playing around with it for a bit


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Offline yugitom

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2016, 12:34:40 PM »
Well, it won't necessarily be an RA3 change, this would and might apply to RA2, as well. I'm not basing any rules here on what I believe RA3 will be like, just how I want to regulate how live tournaments go down.

Offline yugitom

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #148 on: October 09, 2016, 07:48:20 PM »
New tournament rule proposals:

Currently, the time allocated to an Entry Level tournament host to complete their tournament is 90 days. For Major League hosts, it's 9 months. This leads to Major League hosts being able to run 16 bot tournaments for 9 months, while Entry Level hosts have to settle for 3 months.

I, and a good amount of people on Discord, think that this should change. I propose a standing tournament time limit of 3 months. However, Major League hosts will be able to apply for more time (max of 9 months) to complete their tournament. I will then judge how long I should grant their tournament based on premise and intended size.

Something else that has been brought up is whether or not signup time should count towards a host's overall time limit. Although it is not the host's fault that people do not want to enter their tournament or at what rate people enter their tournament, a host could still be neglecting to check and AI entries in that time, too. So, I propose allowing tournament hosts a free fortnight of signups time that does not count towards their time limit.

Tell me what you think about these, as they may be enforced in the near future.

Offline wakkydude

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #149 on: October 09, 2016, 08:08:21 PM »
I do like the sound of both of those, but especially #2. One of the things that is scaring me about ever wanting to host a tournament is having too much of my time limit trying to get signups that just aren't coming, leaving me with not enough to get my first tournament done. Having a grace period for signups would be a good confidence boost, and it does account for the concerns you have raised over neglectful hosts.

Offline Philippa

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #150 on: October 09, 2016, 08:34:17 PM »
Hey, here's a dumb idea, maybe have a little "In Signups:" box on the homepage? Like between the Recent Posts and Who's Online boxes?

Offline Probably Rob

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #151 on: October 09, 2016, 08:41:32 PM »
Hey, here's a dumb idea, maybe have a little "In Signups:" box on the homepage? Like between the Recent Posts and Who's Online boxes?

Are you kidding? Trov doesn't have that kinda time... oh wait.

Offline yugitom

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #152 on: October 09, 2016, 08:48:13 PM »
Hey, here's a dumb idea, maybe have a little "In Signups:" box on the homepage? Like between the Recent Posts and Who's Online boxes?
That actually sounds pretty neat, although I don't think it's necessary.

Offline Badger

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #153 on: October 10, 2016, 06:27:16 AM »
Hey, here's a dumb idea, maybe have a little "In Signups:" box on the homepage? Like between the Recent Posts and Who's Online boxes?
I think that's a really good idea, please put it in Trov
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**
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Offline cephalopod

Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #154 on: October 10, 2016, 06:44:59 AM »
That signups box is actually a really good idea, bring a bit more attention to what's going on.
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Offline R01

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #155 on: October 10, 2016, 07:19:57 AM »
Hey, here's a dumb idea, maybe have a little "In Signups:" box on the homepage? Like between the Recent Posts and Who's Online boxes?
I do think that would be nice, so people know what's currently happening, maybe also one for Tournaments that have started?
As for the time limit, I'd personally rather go into the other direction of removing limits and instead asking people if the Tournament was still going on and then deciding if a thread should be locked/time limit given, think it just scares away members. Giving people a week for signups would be nice.


Offtopic: what happened to your avatar?
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Offline 090901

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #156 on: October 10, 2016, 07:25:05 AM »
signups box is  :thumbup

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Offline cephalopod

Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #157 on: October 10, 2016, 07:33:47 AM »
As for the time limit, I'd personally rather go into the other direction of removing limits and instead asking people if the Tournament was still going on and then deciding if a thread should be locked/time limit given, think it just scares away members.

Not a good idea. Removing limits is removing any reason for the host to finish the tournament in a timely matter.
It kinda comes down to who you want to treat better. The hosts, or the many many members who enter. If you remove limits and tournaments don't finish in a timely matter the members who entered are honestly wronged. We have many hosts and the hosts are made aware they are doing this off their own back in accordance with the rules, they shouldn't be letting entrants down if they have agreed to host a tournament.
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Offline R01

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Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #158 on: October 10, 2016, 08:01:22 AM »
As for the time limit, I'd personally rather go into the other direction of removing limits and instead asking people if the Tournament was still going on and then deciding if a thread should be locked/time limit given, think it just scares away members.

Not a good idea. Removing limits is removing any reason for the host to finish the tournament in a timely matter.
It kinda comes down to who you want to treat better. The hosts, or the many many members who enter. If you remove limits and tournaments don't finish in a timely matter the members who entered are honestly wronged. We have many hosts and the hosts are made aware they are doing this off their own back in accordance with the rules, they shouldn't be letting entrants down if they have agreed to host a tournament.
I didn't mean completely removing them, but hosts shouldn't feel stressed by time or not get a host point just because something was one or two days too late because of personal stuff that happend, the people that have been around here recently didn't look like ones that would never finish a tournament, however now that new members start to appear again, I think it's better to have the limit.
Tournament History:
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https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=18882.0
https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=19197.0

Offline cephalopod

Re: IMPORTANT CHANGES: Tournament Rule Change Discussion
« Reply #159 on: October 10, 2016, 08:06:55 AM »
We introduced a clause to allow conditional extensions depending on circumstances long ago to remove that sort of panic stress.

2 Week Technical Extensions can be granted on proof that the host has experienced technical issues while running the tournament.
Discretionary Conditional Extensions may also be granted, on proof that the tournament has been making progress closely previous to the deadline. This will mean you will have to upload at least 6 videos a week until the tournament is complete, and will not gain a Host Score point, however will mean you do not lose 1 from letting the deadline lapse.
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