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Messages - CyarSkirata

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41
I've just done some testing with a crusher, and I can confirm that gearing anything down further than a total of about 100/1 results in the entire robot being incapable of rotating faster in battle (not in the test area) than the speed of the geared object itself.

42
Already have. It doesn't.
The problem is with the weapons, not friction.

Or... Well. It hasn't helped when I've ended up there in battle. I'll try again going there deliberately once I'm back at my PC, to see if anything's happened to that in the current build.

43
I'm getting increasingly suspicious that Mac and PC simulate the game completely differently.
The problem I have is that even without turning on the weapons of Roller or un-fixed Panic Attack, they just can't steer well enough to so much as manoeuvre around the arena.

It is possible, though I suspect that it might be more related to CPU/GPU load than PC vs Mac.

On my computer if I keep Roller's weapon off I can drive around slowly.  It skids around more than I would like, but it is okay.  It gets all bumpy within a second after I turn on the weapon.

Both versions of Panic Attack that you sent me drive perfectly fine.  A little slow, but they are big robots.

The version of Mental Breakdown that kix sent me a while ago drives like an absolutely maniac.  Super-maneuverable.  It overshoots like crazy when the computer AI is driving.

This is what Roller and Panic Attack look like on my end.
Smooth simulation quality, but both bots are far more broken than you've described on your end.

But, one thing to note is that the test area doesn't break Panic Attack. Only actually going into battle does.

44
CyarSkirata,

I just had a look at Roller.  I think it is having problems with having so much mass being off-center from the robot.  I suspect that small rounding errors are throwing it off balance which cause the entire robot to wobble and shake.  The problem went away as I reduced the mass of the spinner below 10%.

We might be bumping up against a limitation of the physics engine.  The tradeoff seems to be between having spinners that feel nice and weighty, but are unstable, vs spinners that spin reliably without issues but don't have the gyroscopic effects.  We can always increase the "kick" when it hits something, so maybe it is a tradeoff we can live with?

I'm getting increasingly suspicious that Mac and PC simulate the game completely differently.
The problem I have is that even without turning on the weapons of Roller or un-fixed Panic Attack, they just can't steer well enough to so much as manoeuvre around the arena.

45
Damage is at 50
Pushout is 0
Impulse is 100
Minimum mass is 50
That's the best way I could get all of my non-bugged spinners to be at least be useable, since they're mostly at extremes one way or the other.

As for the speed thing, the problem for me is with Circumvolution. 16kg flywheel, does less than 2000 RPM, but it's got such a large diameter that the teeth do 152mph. The way it's built they have no problems engaging with the target bot, but they just don't seem to impart much energy despite the whole wheel stopping.
I occasionally get a good throw, but mostly it just does little bounces. And where it used to lever the robot forward as it accelerated, it just doesn't now.

46
Okay, so... In this build, my verts work quite well, but there are issues. Note, this is with the sliders set to what feels like the best middle ground for my bots.

Circumvolution seems to have too little gyro (large lightweight flywheel), I have a 30kg drum that seems to restrict its bot's mobility a tad too much, and smaller lighter drums seem too fragile.
Then of course there's Roller, which along with un-wheelfixed Panic Attack still has crippling problems even when idle.

Front and overhead horizontals seem better than they have been, but... maybe a little too hindered for mobility.

My shell and ring do better in this build than a lot of previous ones. They feel about right at the moment, the weapons being powerful but still as vulnerable as they should be to being rushed.

On the whole, impact seems pretty good for heavier weapons, but I feel like speed isn't imparting as much energy as it really should compared to mass, making the heavier spinners objectively better right now than the faster ones.

On a side note: when Wheely Big Cheese is inverted and fires its flipper, it launches itself close to three metres into the air. I'm wondering if this has to do with its wheels (which for authenticity and balance I never wheelfixed) being made lighter?

47
Ah... I can't test the new build, my PC can't extract the zip of Jan 7.
Says the archive is corrupt.

I've tried downloading again, hasn't helped.

48
It just occurred to me that the one spinner I forgot to test on the jan 6 build is my currently bug-riddled very early Barber-Ous clone (from back in the bugglebots build), which has been undriveable since part damage came in.

Having done that test now, it still has the same problems as always, despite the 10% weapon weight. Given it has steering troubles (before I even turn the weapon on) just about identical to un-wheelfixed Panic Attack, I'm starting to suspect they might both be victims of the same bug.

Here's the bot, Roller - I'm bad at coming up with names without specific inspiration :3 - incase it helps track the issue down for good.
 

Meanwhile, time to see if any of the bots fare better in the new build.

49
Showcases / Re: 3g's RR2 Showcase
« on: January 08, 2020, 03:22:31 AM »
Love the bots, some of the detail is insane.
As for tips; the key to smooth high-detail painting right now is to get the hang of the custom shape creator. My Panic Attack rep is probably my best example for that, I can't think of any specific others offhand but there are plenty of great ones around.
 :claping

Edit: I should probably clarify, the most important single part of the editor for this is the shape scale changer, which lets ya get extra-small detailed parts. It's in the popout menu on the left when you're using the creator.

50
While I'm here, I might as well also mention: This test does actually fix the suicidal torque when I use the srimech on non-wheelfixed versions of Panic Attack. Unfortunately it also makes it too flimsy.

The issue still remains though with it being effectively unable to steer when I gear the weapons low without the wheelfix.
The problem there being that with the wheelfix, they go completely limp when put under any minor shock from moving parts of opponents. With both gearboxes on each weapon set to 10/1 - meaning a total ratio of 100/1, the effective limit of a single gearbox - they move fast enough that it isn't an issue in battle.
But the wheelfix makes them unuseable at the more authentic speed given by setting each gearbox at 10/0.4 - a speed at which the torque would have little enough of an effect that I'd be able to use the srimech effectively.

So right now the choice with the bot is between being nearly incapable of steering, and being nearly incapable of self-righting.  :dead:

Do you have limits set on the srimech motor?  The wheelfix shouldn't actually do anything if that is the case.  If the code sees that limits are set, it should treat it exactly the same as if a wheel is attached.  I just checked both versions of Panic Attack you sent, and neither of them have a Spinner Mass Reducer -- both have limits set on the motor.  Both versions should behave exactly the same.

Yup. Limits are set. Both do the exact same 90 degree arc, but the non-wheelfixed one runs better, while being kinda flimsy.

Make sure all four weapon gearboxes on the non-wheelfixed one are set to 10/1, to match the wheelfixed one, then put each of them in the test area and give the srimech a waggle.
If your simulation is running roughly the same as mine, then on the jan 6 build you should see the non-wheelfixed version twitch faintly (reasonably good), while the wheelfixed one pivots clear into the air (practically kills the robot in battle.)

51
While I'm here, I might as well also mention: This test does actually fix the suicidal torque when I use the srimech on non-wheelfixed versions of Panic Attack. Unfortunately it also makes it too flimsy.

The issue still remains though with it being effectively unable to steer when I gear the weapons low without the wheelfix.
The problem there being that with the wheelfix, they go completely limp when put under any minor shock from moving parts of opponents. With both gearboxes on each weapon set to 10/1 - meaning a total ratio of 100/1, the effective limit of a single gearbox - they move fast enough that it isn't an issue in battle.
But the wheelfix makes them unuseable at the more authentic speed given by setting each gearbox at 10/0.4 - a speed at which the torque would have little enough of an effect that I'd be able to use the srimech effectively.

So right now the choice with the bot is between being nearly incapable of steering, and being nearly incapable of self-righting.  :dead:

52
Just put up a new 06January2020 Bleeding Edge Build:

http://www.robot-rumble.com/bleedingedgebuilds/

The purpose of this build is to test driving with your big spinners.  I reduced the mass of all big spinners by about 90% from where they were this should significantly improve the stability of the simulation for big heavy spinners.

In particular, if you have a shell spinner let me know how it drives with this build!

Okay. So... First off, I imagine you already know this, but this test does make spinners nearly incapable of scoring effective hits.

My verts handle so well they're actually harder to aim because of the oversteer. Circumvolution in particular is pretty ridiculous, it almost feels like it steers faster than without the weapon, though that's probably just a psychological thing from me over-correcting.

My more standard horizontals basically feel like they don't have a weapon at all, in all aspects of handling, despite one of them having a "32 kg" flywheel with the torque to spin up in under 3 seconds.

My shell and my ring both have basically the same problem; they feel like they've already lost their weapons, and their opponents don't notice their hits at all.

53
I noticed this glitch in the 03January build:
  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]
EDIT: The robot that is gyrodancing has no spinning weapons.

I've had that problem on S3 ever since the first build with part damage. Except on S3, it's the bot's default state of being. Regardless of damage, drive controls, and whether the weapon is running.

Would you mind sending me S3?  I would like to get the spinning-related quirks nailed out.

Sure.

54
In other news, the full unstoppable gyro after a spinner is broken has returned.

55
I noticed this glitch in the 03January build:
  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]
EDIT: The robot that is gyrodancing has no spinning weapons.

I've had that problem on S3 ever since the first build with part damage. Except on S3, it's the bot's default state of being. Regardless of damage, drive controls, and whether the weapon is running.

56
No. They're at the opposite end of the bot, and on the outside.
It feels like the cause is the weird way broken parts move to prevent them from flying everywhere.

57
I've had an issue for a little while now with one of my bots. There are two parts of its front wedge that I could only practically build by using giant wedge sides that are mostly inside the bot's chassis.
Issue being that when those wedge sides get broken off separately to the main wedge part, they often end up rattling around inside the robot, which results in it having mobility issues even worse than some of my Panic Attack variants due to the way broken parts move.

Is there a way to re-engineer the robot so that the problem goes away?  Alternatively, is this something that could be solved with special components using the RR2 Component Modding Tool?

I'm hesitant to try to implement a fix when one might consider broken parts interfering with mobility part of the challenge of the game.

Possible, but it'll be incredibly fiddly, we're talking millimetre precision here.
I'd be fine if it were just throwing off the weight distribution, but the problem is that once it's detached from the robot, it starts actively and severely resisting all movement of any kind, despite now being completely inside the bot; as in completely incapable of interacting with anything on the outside.

58
I've had an issue for a little while now with one of my bots. There are two parts of its front wedge that I could only practically build by using giant wedge sides that are mostly inside the bot's chassis.
Issue being that when those wedge sides get broken off separately to the main wedge part, they often end up rattling around inside the robot, which results in it having mobility issues even worse than some of my Panic Attack variants due to the way broken parts move.

59
I just tried out Panic Attack with the new decorative material. While it doesn't break its own physics anymore, and does have functional skirts, if it fights a complex opponent the problem returns. :(

So... Better, but still issues.

Phew!  The rest is just a matter of tweaking numbers until it feels right.  My thought for the first draft of this is to compute object hit points based on the energy absorption capabilities of the part.  Something like 1 HP = 1 Joule

Thinking more about how the skirt should break:

The skirt should be extremely resistant to damage from spinners because of its shape.  It should deflect blows upward instead of absorbing energy.  It should be extremely fragile if hit from underneath by a vertical spinner.

I think I can accomplish this generically by computing the incidence angle of any spinner hits.  Glancing blows should bounce off.
That would honestly be pretty cool. Reading this, I take it that currently the shape of, lets say the front armor, doesn't matter too much?


Another thing I would personally like to note, unrelated to the damage stuff, is in the workshop. Sometimes I want to do or edit something on the underside of the bot. The table there then kinda gets in the way. Would have to zoom in a lot on the bot to actually see it then.
While one could technically rotate the entire robot for a bit to work on the underside, just moving the camera there is just easier. Could it be done to see through the table if the camera is under it? Make it transparent or fade out of sight perhaps.

Bear in mind: we're talking skirts here, not wedgelets. They were only designed to beat wedges.
The only time I can think of that a Panic Attack took a skirt hit from a horizontal (Corkscrew in S6) the skirt flew off instantly. Yes it was PA Gold, but the skirts were the same basic design.

I figure the most realistic situation for skirts like that would be that they really can't take a hit from spinners, but can withstand anything else. Perhaps if there was some way of setting them up to be completely invulnerable to damage from hits below a certain level, but beyond that threshold a single impact is enough?

60
I just tried out Panic Attack with the new decorative material. While it doesn't break its own physics anymore, and does have functional skirts, if it fights a complex opponent the problem returns. :(

So... Better, but still issues.

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