This is why I "stopped" playing RA2

[ecolusian]

would it be a good idea if we just made it so that you can only use irl bots? that way DSL would be balanced and the fights would be much more entertaining seeing all the bits and bobs on the robot fly into the stratosphere, or was this about building styles in which case, banning popups and flails would work alot better because craaig told me popups can one shot bots and thats seems pretty freaking op to me and flails... im not sure on flais but they seem pretty powerful as well since they move faster than if they were on static extenders so they have more momentum and would hit harder.

[madman3]

would it be a good idea if we just made it so that you can only use irl bots? that way DSL would be balanced and the fights would be much more entertaining seeing all the bits and bobs on the robot fly into the stratosphere, or was this about building styles in which case, banning popups and flails would work alot better because craaig told me popups can one shot bots and thats seems pretty freaking op to me and flails... im not sure on flais but they seem pretty powerful as well since they move faster than if they were on static extenders so they have more momentum and would hit harder.

Irl is horrendously imbalanced and very heavily favors VS and Drums. It also makes literally no sense as a tournament format since it's a bot type mostly focused on aesthetic features, which makes it better suited to BotM or "judged" tournaments where the host decides who won based on what happened in the match from a viewer standpoint. It would be easier to just ban certain bot types or impose restrictions on them, such as a maximum weapon weight restriction for Popups, Flail rams or TRFBDs.

[cephalopod]

I agree with madman there. I think if you're trying to win IRL tournaments you're doing it wrong. All about the aesthetics.

[123savethewhales]

Pretty sure at least the former two get soft countered by TRFBDs, but if you say so. I missed most of the flail ram stuff that came up (I assume this is why ty4er is now considered the worst DSL builder ever) and I haven't seen any pseudo crawlers, but that's just due to me being absent for 8 month intervals.

Flail ram do not get soft countered by TRFBD, and no way in hell can TRFBD beat a wram with 350kg worth of razors.  20 seconds in and neither a FSnS nor TRFBD will have weapons left.

As for pseudo crawlers, it just means all the VS/HS that don't even try to have sturdy stabilizers.  They just load up with razors and win by bouncing around 9 out of 10 times.

Ban razors and you nerf a lot more than popups. Banning flails and generally popups though does open the field somewhat.

That's the whole point, ban razors and you kill everything flail (FSnS, Flail Ram, TRFBD).  Hell you don't even need to ban flails themselves.  Conversely if you ban flail you also defeat most reason for using razors.

Wram Popups?  They don't use flail they can just swap to something else, a little bit less damage isn't going to kill them.  They just spam beaters/DS light as without razors they will de-weapon everything even easier.

[Reier]

guys what is a trfbd i've been gone a long time and averted the flail apocalypse

[madman3]

guys what is a trfbd i've been gone a long time and averted the flail apocalypse

Basically a full body drum that uses the torque reaction of DSL discs to spin its chassis and move forwards similaneously, usually has loads of flail based weapons and the chassis is physically out of reach of the weapons of most gutripper style bots. Basically a Flying Guillotine that is more viable at heavier weight classes.

Pretty sure at least the former two get soft countered by TRFBDs, but if you say so. I missed most of the flail ram stuff that came up (I assume this is why ty4er is now considered the worst DSL builder ever) and I haven't seen any pseudo crawlers, but that's just due to me being absent for 8 month intervals.

Flail ram do not get soft countered by TRFBD, and no way in hell can TRFBD beat a wram with 350kg worth of razors.  20 seconds in and neither a FSnS nor TRFBD will have weapons left.

As for pseudo crawlers, it just means all the VS/HS that don't even try to have sturdy stabilizers.  They just load up with razors and win by bouncing around 9 out of 10 times.

Ban razors and you nerf a lot more than popups. Banning flails and generally popups though does open the field somewhat.

That's the whole point, ban razors and you kill everything flail (FSnS, Flail Ram, TRFBD).  Hell you don't even need to ban flails themselves.  Conversely if you ban flail you also defeat most reason for using razors.

Wram Popups?  They don't use flail they can just swap to something else, a little bit less damage isn't going to kill them.  They just spam beaters/DS light as without razors they will de-weapon everything even easier.

I'm pretty sure the way rammer AI works and the fact that about 10% of bots have top armor would mean that flail rammers would risk really high damage against them. I've never seen the matchup but the fact that half of a flail rammer's weapon weight won't even be in range of the weapons of a TRFBD means it barely matters how much weaponry it has in total. Then again as I said I can't claim to know.

"Pseudo crawlers" could probably be removed by setting some sort of standard for stabilizer strength, since from the sounds of it they basically spend half the match not having controlled movement and the builders bank on it.

[G.K.]

This is a quite interesting discussion for me because I will be trying to disallow particularly broken things when I run the DSL-S RA2 League after the stock one.

So would, say, banning flails be an appropriate course of action? Or is that going too far (Or indeed not far enough)?

[helloface]

would it be a good idea if we just made it so that you can only use irl bots? that way DSL would be balanced and the fights would be much more entertaining seeing all the bits and bobs on the robot fly into the stratosphere, or was this about building styles in which case, banning popups and flails would work alot better because craaig told me popups can one shot bots and thats seems pretty freaking op to me and flails... im not sure on flais but they seem pretty powerful as well since they move faster than if they were on static extenders so they have more momentum and would hit harder.

IRL bots shouldn't really be made to be competitive. Generally the main focus of IRL building is to make your bot look cool and realistic. IRL tournaments are more for fun rather than seriously competitive. I think a good idea would be to put weight restrictions on certain bot types, like popups can only be 225 for LW, 350 for MW, 700 for HW, etc. Only problem with that is people will forget what weight restrictions for certain types are and there would probably be quite a bit of dispute between what the handicaps should be.

[madman3]

would it be a good idea if we just made it so that you can only use irl bots? that way DSL would be balanced and the fights would be much more entertaining seeing all the bits and bobs on the robot fly into the stratosphere, or was this about building styles in which case, banning popups and flails would work alot better because craaig told me popups can one shot bots and thats seems pretty freaking op to me and flails... im not sure on flais but they seem pretty powerful as well since they move faster than if they were on static extenders so they have more momentum and would hit harder.

IRL bots shouldn't really be made to be competitive. Generally the main focus of IRL building is to make your bot look cool and realistic. IRL tournaments are more for fun rather than seriously competitive. I think a good idea would be to put weight restrictions on certain bot types, like popups can only be 225 for LW, 350 for MW, 700 for HW, etc. Only problem with that is people will forget what weight restrictions for certain types are and there would probably be quite a bit of dispute between what the handicaps should be.

I think attributing restrictions to weapon or armor weight depending on bot type is a good idea, but your idea sounds less complicated. I'm pretty indifferent to it all since all I build is Jugglers at this point and they're the most average bot type out there.

[Tashic]

I try to make IRL bots somewhat efficent, but thinking how a real bot would be. For example if I want to make a spinner and I use a motor outside of the chassis, I have to add multiple supports, and not just the extender necessary to attach the motor, because a real robot would break immediately, or the weapon motor is so crap it only needs a thin extender to survive it's own power.

[Mr. AS]

I think a good idea would be to put weight restrictions on certain bot types, like popups can only be 225 for LW, 350 for MW, 700 for HW, etc. Only problem with that is people will forget what weight restrictions for certain types are and there would probably be quite a bit of dispute between what the handicaps should be.

Almost as retarded of an idea as cruiserweight. What about hybrids? Just because you put a crappy 2-razor popup on your bot means you should get a disadvantage? If you decide to put restrictions on more than one bot type (such as VS or wedged rammer), what happens when someone comes along with their popup+VS+Wram hybrid? What would you even do then?

[Reier]

agree with AS on weightclasses like that being dumb

why not just ban parts/bot types you hate on a tournament by tournament basis? This doesn't need to be a forum-wide ban or anything.

[madman3]

agree with AS on weightclasses like that being dumb

why not just ban parts/bot types you hate on a tournament by tournament basis? This doesn't need to be a forum-wide ban or anything.

This sounds like pretty much the best idea. There are probably sick, twisted people who like flail rams (well, we know there is at least 1 and he's the worst DSL builder ever) so tournaments shouldn't have to exclude them, it should just be an optional thing.

[090901]

>not just playing ironforge

who are you quoting?

[123savethewhales]

I'm pretty sure the way rammer AI works and the fact that about 10% of bots have top armor would mean that flail rammers would risk really high damage against them. I've never seen the matchup but the fact that half of a flail rammer's weapon weight won't even be in range of the weapons of a TRFBD means it barely matters how much weaponry it has in total. Then again as I said I can't claim to know.

"Pseudo crawlers" could probably be removed by setting some sort of standard for stabilizer strength, since from the sounds of it they basically spend half the match not having controlled movement and the builders bank on it.

If you can't claim to know, then why do you keep insisting otherwise?

You know what happens when razors are on flail?  They flex.  You cannot avoid those stupid weapons rather you are a VS, a TRFBD, or a popup.  You get on top with an upward spin?  It knocks the weapon up.  You get under with a wedge?  It knocks the weapons down.  A few seconds of that and you lose half your weapons.  I don't theorycraft.  I have ty4er's flail rams so I know how they behave.

I am not stopping anyone from building, I just don't care about DSL-S anymore because I don't see any new ideas working.

[madman3]

I'm pretty sure the way rammer AI works and the fact that about 10% of bots have top armor would mean that flail rammers would risk really high damage against them. I've never seen the matchup but the fact that half of a flail rammer's weapon weight won't even be in range of the weapons of a TRFBD means it barely matters how much weaponry it has in total. Then again as I said I can't claim to know.

"Pseudo crawlers" could probably be removed by setting some sort of standard for stabilizer strength, since from the sounds of it they basically spend half the match not having controlled movement and the builders bank on it.

If you can't claim to know, then why do you keep insisting otherwise?

You know what happens when razors are on flail?  They flex.  You cannot avoid those stupid weapons rather you are a VS, a TRFBD, or a popup.  You get on top with an upward spin?  It knocks the weapon up.  You get under with a wedge?  It knocks the weapons down.  A few seconds of that and you lose half your weapons.  I don't theorycraft.  I have ty4er's flail rams so I know how they behave.

I am not stopping anyone from building, I just don't care about DSL-S anymore because I don't see any new ideas working.

Fair enough, you're right anyway.

[ecolusian]

Irl is horrendously imbalanced and very heavily favors VS and Drums. It also makes literally no sense as a tournament format since it's a bot type mostly focused on aesthetic features, which makes it better suited to BotM or "judged" tournaments where the host decides who won based on what happened in the match from a viewer standpoint. It would be easier to just ban certain bot types or impose restrictions on them, such as a maximum weapon weight restriction for Popups, Flail rams or TRFBDs.
[/quote]

thats what i was thinking, make the tournaments judge based, the points system is bs anyways since a lucky shot could win you the match outright. in my opinion judge based compitions would be alot of fun and it hypes me just thinking about it but i dont know how to tournament.

[Meganerdbomb]

WTF are TRFBDs?

[G.K.]

Torque Reaction Full Body Drum

https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=18005.msg684317#msg684317

[Meganerdbomb]

Torque Reaction Full Body Drum

https://gametechmods.com/forums/index.php?topic=18005.msg684317#msg684317

That thing is an affront to all that is holy.