Author Topic: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL  (Read 24685 times)

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« on: September 26, 2014, 04:52:57 PM »
Behold!



Drive is 2 astroflights, wheels are 2 wide ants, spinner is piglet, 3 ant bats, whatever armor i could put on it with all that other stuff.



Drive is 2 magmotor drives, wheels are 2 wide ants, spinner is e-tek, 4 or 5 ant bats, , whatever armor i could put on it with all that other stuff.



Drive is 4 magmotor drives, wheels are 4 vlads, spinner is dual perm, a whole bunch of ant bats, whatever armor i could put on it with all that other stuff.  This one has some stability issues.

Offline Shield

  • The question isn't who will let me.
  • Ultra Heavyweight
  • Posts: 2196
  • Rep: 8
  • It's who will stop me.
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2014, 11:15:06 PM »
They all literally look the same
beep beep

Offline rnifnuf

  • Forum Linguist
  • Heavyweight
  • Posts: 434
  • Rep: 5
  • Proponent of competitive sonnet improvisation
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • See profile for gamer tags: Yes
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 01:57:45 AM »
Welcome to DSL! Leave almost everything you learned from Stock behind.
Advice:
  • That heavyweight does not need so many batteries. DSL uses the exact same base code that Stock does, so spin motors don't magically need to be fully powered. One ant is enough to power a single spin motor for three minutes, although it is advisable to have an extra ant if you have weight leftover. As for burst motors, they still need to be fully powered.
  • LDS Teeth are actually among the best weapons in DSL. You made a wise choice to use them.
  • For shell spinners, it is acceptable to have weak drive because they don't rely on it to be effective. Of course, every robot must have some type of drive, shell spinners just need less drive power than, say, a VS. This means you can get away with 2WD Astroflights with Wide Ants on the MW and 2WD Mags with either Wide Ants or Hypnos on the HW. Having a weak drive usually allows for a smaller chassis and more weight leftover for weaponry.
  • For shell spinners, it is generally, if not always, best to use the circle chassis (The "circles" are actually regular polygons centered at the center of the baseplate design grid and adjustable in radius). These have a wide base, keeping the bot more stable as the shell turns. This chassis may also allow for a larger spin motor than a rectangular chassis.
  • The MW and HW have appropriate spin motors. The LW, however, does not. Use the circle-shaped chassis to get a TWM3R on the LW.
  • Shell spinners generally don't have very good armor, so ending up with a shell spinner that has Titanium 1 armor is nothing to lose sleep over. Besides, the shell already protects the chassis and wedge-dependent bots like popups are already hard to counter. Just don't use DSA; DSA is the worst armor in DSL.
  • Don't use the tall shell panels unless you really have to. This is just a waste of weight. Also the HW probably has stability issues because it has actual ground clearance. Ground clearance and shell spinners do not mix.
  • Look into flails. Or don't, since FSS are generally regarded as cheap, and are sometimes banned. Even if you wanted flails, you would have to either switch to razors as your weapon or have a beater bar in between the axle mount and the LDS tooth.
  • Lurk. Lurk a lot. Lurk like you have never lurked before, except don't, because that is somewhat of a bad idea. You look like you want to build DSL-S, so lurk in Naryar's showcase. He just so happens to have a tutorial on effective DSL2 building.
Work hard, and this showcase will become known as "Thrackerzod is Awesome at DSL!"
Follow me on Twitter? I'd like to see you try!

Stock Showcase     DSL Showcase     Ironforge Showcase

Offline Naryar

  • Posts: 23283
  • Rep: 21
  • hybrids oui oui
    • http://www.youtube.com/us
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Skype: TheMightyNaryar
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 03:10:59 AM »
Leave almost everything you learned from Stock behind.

actually no, plenty of techniques and thought processes go from stock to DSL

2WD mags w/wide ants is very few even on a HW HS. It'll go immobile as long as it's batteries are weak.

you may want to put an extender on top of your bot so it resists being inverted as well.

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 07:30:42 AM »
Thanks for the advice!  They all look similar because I was hoping to get these to the point that I could enter into Evolve.  Unfortunately, it's an IRL tournament, and I am terrible at judging what counts as such.

That aside, I redid the LW; MW and HW will follow soon.



Changes:
-Circular chassis
-TWM3R2 spinner
-4 ant bats
-Titanuim 1 armor
-That big extender thing on top
-I had to take off a row of DS teeth because of weight.  However, I could put 4 extra teeth on if I downgrade the armor to plastic 1, get rid of the top extender, and get rid of one of the ant bats.  Should I do that?

Offline Shield

  • The question isn't who will let me.
  • Ultra Heavyweight
  • Posts: 2196
  • Rep: 8
  • It's who will stop me.
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 10:13:23 AM »
Thanks for the advice!  They all look similar because I was hoping to get these to the point that I could enter into Evolve.  Unfortunately, it's an IRL tournament, and I am terrible at judging what counts as such.

That aside, I redid the LW; MW and HW will follow soon.

(Image removed from quote.)

Changes:
-Circular chassis
-TWM3R2 spinner
-4 ant bats
-Titanuim 1 armor
-That big extender thing on top
-I had to take off a row of DS teeth because of weight.  However, I could put 4 extra teeth on if I downgrade the armor to plastic 1, get rid of the top extender, and get rid of one of the ant bats.  Should I do that?

they're all IRL. Generic, but IRL.
beep beep

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 01:13:19 PM »
MW is rebuilt:



Drive is 2 astroflights + 2 hypnos, 4 ant bats, aluminum 1
The plates are really tall to compensate for the e-tek being really tall.  Is there a different motor that would be better?

they're all IRL. Generic, but IRL.

Well, that's good.

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 04:22:05 PM »
HW rebuild:



Titanium 1 armor, 4 ant bats, 2 magmotor drives + hypnos, dual perm spinner.

I'll get those three skinned and submitted if there's nothing glaringly wrong with them.  Also, I'd like to whip something up for Dynamic Duos at some point.

Offline cephalopod

Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 03:53:02 AM »
Honestly you could probably save weight by using a custom chassis shape rather than a circle but it would take a lot of rebuilds.
As for the E-tek, maybe try one of the multiple-mag options for flatness? Not sure how that'd go with weight though.
bristol bot builders / two headed death flamingo / snappy robots
//
kindest and friendliest '13, '15, '16, '17 / favourite staff member '14, '15

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2014, 09:23:20 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions!  The shell spinners were submitted, I'll see how it goes.

New bot intended for Dynamic Duos:



Plastic 3.

Offline rnifnuf

  • Forum Linguist
  • Heavyweight
  • Posts: 434
  • Rep: 5
  • Proponent of competitive sonnet improvisation
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • See profile for gamer tags: Yes
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2014, 11:44:33 PM »
Overall, the bot is pretty good, but it could use some improvements.

Only use the center attachment point on the skirt hinge. Using the other attachment points ruins the wedge. Also, change the wheels from DSL Wheels to Hypnodisc wheels, often referred to as Hypnos. Hypnos are infinitely better wheels, but will only make minimum-height bots invertible. If it isn't invertible with Hypnos, then Vladiator wheels (Vlads) are a viable substitute with slightly less weight. Also, be weary of the exposed mags. Assuming those are drive mags, which you should be using in this situation, only have 400HP. Don't switch to weapon mags.

Remember that Storm Bursts require more air than any VDMA, and one small Puma won't supply it with enough air for three minutes. If this can't be fixed, then don't worry about it. Instead, switch the aluminum extenders to polycarbonate since the LDS teeth will protect the extenders that only hammers can reach. Also, remove the center LDS since it really serves no purpose and won't do any damage.

If you end up with leftover weight, spend it on upgrading the armor to Plastic 5. Plastic 5 is stronger than Plastic 3, and your bot won't be any slower with Plastic 5 than with Plastic 3 because the drive on the new bot should be similar to what it is now.
Follow me on Twitter? I'd like to see you try!

Stock Showcase     DSL Showcase     Ironforge Showcase

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2014, 02:29:35 PM »


I opted to stick two more spikes on there rather than upgrade the armor.  This was probably a bad idea.

Remember that Storm Bursts require more air than any VDMA, and one small Puma won't supply it with enough air for three minutes.
It's weird, because it will run out of air like a minute in, and then continue to fire normally anyway.

Offline rnifnuf

  • Forum Linguist
  • Heavyweight
  • Posts: 434
  • Rep: 5
  • Proponent of competitive sonnet improvisation
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • See profile for gamer tags: Yes
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2014, 03:35:48 PM »
Those outer extenders are really exposed at the ends. Any good HS will get to those very quickly. You could either revert to the old setup (obviously without the middle tooth) or add extra teeth to the ends at the expense of weakened armor. Remember that downgrading the armor is always an option when leftover weight runs too low. People generally agree that more weapons are preferable over stronger armor, as more weapons can be used for defense as well as offense.

To amend my previous post, Vlads aren't the right kind of wheel for this bot since they are the minimum height to make Drive E-teks invertible (or usable for that matter), thus making them too tall. If Hypnos don't work out, mini wheels may be a viable substitute, but pokers are supposed to be fast so downgrading the drive would not be the best option.

If you removed the extenders you added from last time, then you could move the new teeth to the side of the extenders as extender protection, but this might not work out since LDS teeth only have 800HP (not 700 like the game says). Try a few different setups to see which ones are the most effective; Standard building is all about making the most effective bot possible while still keeping it physically possible i.e. able to be built in real life.

If I may get up on my soapbox for a minute here, I would like to say that I personally don't like how most building advice is given on Gametechmods. This does not pertain to all advice posts in showcases, but some things like "Read this" followed by a link to Clickbeetle's building tutorial or "Replace these weapons" without an explanation on why the weapons should be replaced somewhat irritate me. The part that irks me is the fact that no proper explanation is given as to why this should be done. I find that I can understand things easier with at least a basic explanation, and I'm sure people feel the same way. I'm not asking others to explain their advice in a long dissertation, just in a sentience or two. This is what I always try to do when giving advice, and I realize that I may not always succeed at this.
Follow me on Twitter? I'd like to see you try!

Stock Showcase     DSL Showcase     Ironforge Showcase

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2014, 09:50:18 PM »
I stuck some beater bars on it, that should work:



I'm at a loss as to what to do for the meduimweight.  Any suggestions?

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2014, 09:23:55 PM »
I did a randomizey thing and it told me to make a wammer so here:



A wedgy pokey thing.  That burst motor is supposed to be a srimech.

Two of the big airtanks, titanium 1.

Offline rnifnuf

  • Forum Linguist
  • Heavyweight
  • Posts: 434
  • Rep: 5
  • Proponent of competitive sonnet improvisation
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • See profile for gamer tags: Yes
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2014, 12:16:26 AM »
Use a BSG-200 instead of a Mag Snapper for the srimech. Though a bit unwieldy, the BSG far exceeds the Mag Snapper, not in power, but in practicality. BSGs are lighter and drain less power than Mag Snappers, all for the same firing strength. This was not known to the public when DSL2 was new, but now we know better. This is why Velociraptor has Mag Snappers instead of the more practical BSGs, and why it is actually a Super Heavyweight at 811 kilograms.

Even if you changed the srimech, the collision mesh of the skirt hinges would be an impediment. In DSL2, skirt hinges are actually very weak burst motors, hence why their range is adjustable. This, in my opinion, is very clever as it re-purposes an existing game mechanic. However, the axle (the part the component attaches to) has a rectangular collision mesh that extends beyond the hinge itself. If one looked at the skirt hinge in F12 mode they would notice an odd wire-frame rectangle protruding from the back of the hinge's axle. The game, i kid you not, considers this invisible space as solid, making it impossible to place anything adjacent to a skirt hinge without either moving or snapper-loading the axle. Luckily, Clickbeetle has put a new skirt hinge, one without this awkward collision mesh, in DSL3.

I would like to see the front of the bot, particularly the layout of the weapons. If those are beater bars, then you have chosen a good weapon. I have been told that concussion-based weapons, such as beater bars, are ideal for pokers. Even if this isn't so, beater bars are good weapons, considered to be one of DSL's "Big Three" weapons, a title shared with Light Double-Sided Teeth and Razor Tips.

Do not change the drive. 2WD Fast NPC-T64 with Hypno wheels is ideal for this kind of robot: one that relies on speed. Be warned, however, that NPC motors have low HP and are usually found jutting out from the rear of the chassis. Although they will never completely fail due to being attached to the chassis, the slightest hit to a motor will leave your bot severely crippled. Don't worry about this as AI bots aim directly for the front of the bot, not the sides or rear. This is why AI bots are usually unable to preform certain maneuvers such as flanking.
Follow me on Twitter? I'd like to see you try!

Stock Showcase     DSL Showcase     Ironforge Showcase

Offline Naryar

  • Posts: 23283
  • Rep: 21
  • hybrids oui oui
    • http://www.youtube.com/us
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Skype: TheMightyNaryar
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2014, 03:11:03 AM »
that isn't a wammer that is a gutripping poker. wammer = static weapons.

make it invertible really, instead of a srimech.

Offline Thrackerzod

  • Sparkle up your day!
  • *
  • Posts: 2035
  • Rep: 10
  • The distant future... the year 2000...
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2014, 07:27:24 PM »
Use a BSG-200 instead of a Mag Snapper for the srimech.

I would like to see the front of the bot, particularly the layout of the weapons. If those are beater bars, then you have chosen a good weapon. I have been told that concussion-based weapons, such as beater bars, are ideal for pokers. Even if this isn't so, beater bars are good weapons, considered to be one of DSL's "Big Three" weapons, a title shared with Light Double-Sided Teeth and Razor Tips.



Switched to a BSG and upgraded to plastic 3 armor.  The weapon is indeed a rack of beater bars.  I angled them a bit because I thought it looked cooler than just a solid line of beater bars.  I appreciate the detail you go into in your reviews; thanks!

that isn't a wammer that is a gutripping poker. wammer = static weapons.

make it invertible really, instead of a srimech.

Will make a standard poker variant later and see how it fares.

Offline rnifnuf

  • Forum Linguist
  • Heavyweight
  • Posts: 434
  • Rep: 5
  • Proponent of competitive sonnet improvisation
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • See profile for gamer tags: Yes
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 10:07:53 PM »
A straight line of beater bars is more practical than the angled arrangement you have going on there. Beater bars have the ability to stack end-to-end, making them functional extenders as well as effective weapons. This ability, unique to these weapons, is often taken advantage of in DSL Standard bots, particularly to place razor tips/LDS teeth on one end. I have one such bot in my DSL showcase, a bot that nobody would expect.

The advantage of traditional pokers is that they can easily be made invertible. That srimech, as Naryar stated, is a waste of weight. If you were to keep the current design, you would need to replace the srimech with invertibility, moving the NPC's higher in the chassis and replacing the Hypnos with Vlads. Vlads are larger, but much slower than, Hypnos. A traditional poker design is invertible with Hypnos, provided the chassis is at minimum height. The other advantage of the traditional poker is the fact that less of the chassis is exposed to frontal attacks. The wedged poker has that entire front wedge exposed, although the only kinds of bots that can hit it are HS, rammers, and some VS. Traditional pokers have a chassis exposed only to the practically extinct hammer and the popup, which is already hard enough to counter as things are.

TL;DR? Try the traditional flat poker design instead of what you currently have. Arrange the beater bars in a line rather than zigzagged as is on the current bot. Above all, do NOT give up!
Follow me on Twitter? I'd like to see you try!

Stock Showcase     DSL Showcase     Ironforge Showcase

Offline Naryar

  • Posts: 23283
  • Rep: 21
  • hybrids oui oui
    • http://www.youtube.com/us
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Skype: TheMightyNaryar
Re: Thrackerzod is bad at DSL
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 03:45:13 AM »
This angled setup is totally cool, however !