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Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Clickbeetle on June 22, 2014, 12:36:36 AM

Title: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Clickbeetle on June 22, 2014, 12:36:36 AM
So I was thinking about BBEANS7


and I decided I want to go back to stock MW, since it's been 8 years or something since BBEANS1.  However, it won't be JUST stock MW.  There will be a "Standard" division, which will be your standard tourney with normal building rules.  And then there will be a special "Sportsman" division.

What is the sportsman class?  Think kind of like the stock equivalent of DSL IRL.

DSL is popular (just compare activity in the stock showcase with the DSL showcase) in part because it has two main building styles, standard and IRL.  (There are other reasons too, but I think IRL building is a big part.)  Stock has only one building style, which is extremely focused on mastering glitch abuse and stacking, and is largely inaccessible to new players.  Even experienced players can find it tedious Snapper-loading huge complicated weapon systems or trying to stack multiple baseplate anchors in a Nifty.  I think stock needs another option.  However, IRL doesn't work as well in stock.  It's been attempted and never took off.  Enter my idea for the sportsman class.

Proposed rules for stock sportsman class:  (I want to keep these short and simple, so there are only three.)

1.  Banned Components
Cheatbot2 parts, the Snapper II, and 140cm extenders are not allowed.

2.  Stacking Rule
Only baseplate anchors, small battery packs, and control boards may be stacked.  No stacking weapons (=overlapping collision mesh).  No exostacking.  It is still allowed to "stack" things using motors.

3.  Chassis Armor
Double-strength aluminum armor is not allowed.  (Yup, you'll have to actually open the Armor tab.)

Feedback is welcome on this idea.  The main goal of the sportsman class is not to make the game more accessible to new players, although that is a nice side effect.  The goal is to make an alternate, less glitch-focused, less tedious, less brutally competitive building style that encourages different designs, similar to what IRL does for DSL and the real life 30lb sportsman class does for real life robot combat, and perhaps boost interest in stock building.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Mr. AS on June 22, 2014, 01:28:11 AM
So it's basically the equivalent of "substandard" DSL, being in the middle of IRL and DSL-S? Example being many of Naryar's past "IRL" bots.

Also, small wedges aren't even good on most flippers, apart from that one LW flipper I made with a small wedge. Not like anyone builds flippers in stock anyway.


Only baseplate anchors, small battery packs, and control boards may be stacked.  No stacking weapons (=overlapping collision mesh).  No exostacking.
So no battery stacking either? Not even pinks, which are one of the easiest things to stack in the game?
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: S.T.C. on June 22, 2014, 01:54:29 AM
This seems good, I'm definitely not a stock builder but this seems like a good compromise for people who are mostly used to DSL.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: 090901 on June 22, 2014, 01:59:17 AM

Only baseplate anchors, small battery packs, and control boards may be stacked.  No stacking weapons (=overlapping collision mesh).  No exostacking.
So no battery stacking either? Not even pinks, which are one of the easiest things to stack in the game?
Small battery packs = pinks
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on June 22, 2014, 02:17:43 AM
IMO Small wedges should be banned, AI parts allowed, and I could care less about caster armour. Maybe a rule about razors and irons too?
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: 090901 on June 22, 2014, 02:32:10 AM
I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(http://i.imgur.com/PuxlgXx.png)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.

IMO Small wedges should be banned
Banning small wedges would just turn this into even more of a HS fest as popups would then need to use E-wedges (even if they are allowed)

Maybe a rule about razors and irons too?
What would be cool is to have another tourney that bans the big 3/4 of weapons in stock (Razors, Irons, Maces, and Bearclaws).  However I bet everybody would just use axes and spikes stripes then so it really wouldn't change much.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on June 22, 2014, 02:40:08 AM
IMO Small wedges should be banned
Banning small wedges would just turn this into even more of a HS fest as popups would then need to use E-wedges (even if they are allowed)
That is a valid point. I'm changing my mind, small wedges should be legal.

Something else that could be interesting is banning of tribars. I may be taking it too far but it could limit the building of generic HSs and force people to use uncommon components and make more creative, unique, or rare bot types.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Lemonism on June 22, 2014, 03:52:23 AM
This sounds really cool, I haven't been building stock much for almost exactly the reasons you described, and this sounds like a great idea to get back into building stock again.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Gazea2 on June 22, 2014, 07:39:32 AM
Something else that could be interesting is banning of tribars. I may be taking it too far but it could limit the building of generic HSs and force people to use uncommon components and make more creative, unique, or rare bot types.

This.
I like this.

I think the idea as a whole is good. Personally, I feel that caster armour is pretty heavy anyway and I reckon it won't be used much. It might also give bots a chance against any HS spam that there is.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Naryar on June 22, 2014, 08:51:54 AM
i'm not sure why we can stack things using bursts/servos but yet eFFeing and all the loading techniques are banned...

Small wedges should be allowed else it nerfs every single wedge bot in favor of HS's, as said.

AI parts should definitely be allowed. (Why would you ban them ? Only good AI part is the bear claw and even then it's mostly as good as razors)

I think caster armor should be allowed, but you should limit it to increase tactical choices.
-either a numerical limit on the caster components per weightclass (2 LW, 4 MW, 8 HW or something like that)
-or just allow caster armor but only as a limited use, as if protecting 2 corners of your bot with caster armor is allowed but not protecting entire faces with caster armor.

otherwise i agree with everything else.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Sage on June 22, 2014, 09:27:34 AM
Certainly interesting. So you're saying you would run two tournaments simultaneously?

As far as the rules for Sportsman mode goes, it sounds like you want to make it like the day stock came out... no glitches, no extra components, no DSA. Build a bot as if it was 11 years ago.

I like it. But I agree with 0190910191... HS will dominate. But is that any different than normal? Probably not.


As far as the normal part of the tournament goes, as long as you're gonna ban hax mode (i assume you are), you should ban the pause button too.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Mystic2000 on June 22, 2014, 12:06:00 PM
I personally think that this does nerf HS a bit, as for popups, i'm pretty sure that a damaging enough one can easily KO an HS, espcecially without DSA, anyway i'm gonna experiment with that a little, oh and you says glitches are banned, does that includes chained motors ?
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Clickbeetle on June 22, 2014, 12:44:49 PM
I removed the rule banning glitch use, because I realized that banning stacking effectively bans glitch use by definition (the only reason anyone uses glitches is to stack things).  No reason to have redundant rules.

Chaining motors will still be allowed.  Not as sure about the Rupt glitch, but I'm leaning toward allowing it because it's really not that good.

Certainly interesting. So you're saying you would run two tournaments simultaneously?

Yes.  Sportsman class is still an experiment, so I don't want to make it the only option.

As far as the rules for Sportsman mode goes, it sounds like you want to make it like the day stock came out... no glitches, no extra components, no DSA. Build a bot as if it was 11 years ago.

The methods used will be like the day RA2 came out, however I expect the actual bot designs will be more modern.  (See 090901's HS.)

I like it. But I agree with 0190910191... HS will dominate. But is that any different than normal? Probably not.

Exactly... standard stock is already a popup and HS fest; sportsman rules can hardly make it more of one.  I would say that of all bot types, HS rely on stacking the most, so if anything these rules would make HS slightly less dominant.

i'm not sure why we can stack things using bursts/servos but yet eFFeing and all the loading techniques are banned...

Burst/servo stacking is too hard to define and regulate.  For example, EMERGENCY's wedges.  Are they stacked in the ram plates?  If so, is "minor" stacking like that allowed?  And if not, then this comes close to making a "realistic rule" for stock, which is not the point.

Unlike eFFeing, burst/servo stacking has been used since RA2 first came out.  Also, stacking with bursts and servos comes at a much higher weight cost than using glitches.

I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(http://i.imgur.com/PuxlgXx.png)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.

This bot is actually kind of the goal of sportsman class.  I'm not trying to nerf particular dominant bot types, only make stock easier to build in.

However, those irons look overlapping to me, so that setup wouldn't be allowed.  You would have to move the side irons to the inner attach point, or use a T/Y connector.

Maybe a rule about razors and irons too?
What would be cool is to have another tourney that bans the big 3/4 of weapons in stock (Razors, Irons, Maces, and Bearclaws).  However I bet everybody would just use axes and spikes stripes then so it really wouldn't change much.

I thought about adding this rule, but decided not to for this reason.


So the general consensus I'm getting so far...

- Allow AI parts

- Allow small wedges

- Limit casters in some way (have to decide how)
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Mr. AS on June 22, 2014, 12:50:34 PM
But yeah, I think you should:
-Allow all AI parts, but ban bearclaws, because they're arguably more OP than razors/irons/maces.
-I could go either way on wedges, but don't make flippers exempt from the rule. You're more likely to see bracket wedge flippers or fork arm when you first start RA2 flippers because sentinel and scout use them.
-Don't allow caster armor, otherwise it will definitely be an HS fest.

Banning small wedges would just turn this into even more of a HS fest as popups would then need to use E-wedges (even if they are allowed)
Honestly, I think Ewedge > small wedge when fighting HS, because they're far wider and thus won't get smacked away as easily.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Resetti's Replicas on June 22, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(http://i.imgur.com/PuxlgXx.png)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.
  Perhaps a modified IRL ruleset?  It doesn't have to be as stringent, but it would be in the spirit of things to ban some unrealisms, like overlapping spinners.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Trovaner on June 22, 2014, 11:54:05 PM
I see this quickly becoming a popup and HS (possibly rammer if small and e-wedge are banned) fest as many other bot types use said banned/parts glitches to their advantage. Anyone can easily make a 12 HS within the rules, for example:
(http://i.imgur.com/PuxlgXx.png)
397.9kg
12 irons (could be changed to maces since i know they can be put on without eFFe)
Z-tek drive (can be downgraded for heavier armour as it has DSA aka Alum atm)
1 black battery to go along with that all.
  Perhaps a modified IRL ruleset?  It doesn't have to be as stringent, but it would be in the spirit of things to ban some unrealisms, like overlapping spinners.
Personally, I don't see something similar to IRL sticking too well in stock. DSL is about realism and stock is about efficiency (Edit: I realize how erraneous of a statement this is but I can't think of a better way of describing the focus of both).

Therefore, my opinion is that all of the overpowered, and often specialized, components should be banned or hintered greatly to promote the use of alternatives.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on June 23, 2014, 12:28:54 AM
So it seems like Me, Gaz, and Trov are all for banning Tribars. Anyone else? How about your opinion, Click?
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Naryar on June 23, 2014, 06:54:24 AM
why ban tribars ? ban unrealistic use of tribars yes, but ban tribars completely, no.

besides banning tribars nerfs HS and VS quite a bit. HS already have been nerfed enough.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Mecha on June 23, 2014, 10:26:21 AM
I would enter if it wasn't IRL but then I guess it would be like all the other tournaments.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on June 23, 2014, 01:13:27 PM
why ban tribars ? ban unrealistic use of tribars yes, but ban tribars completely, no.

besides banning tribars nerfs HS and VS quite a bit. HS already have been nerfed enough.
Promotes use of other components and creativity; there isn't much creativity in a generic HS.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Naryar on June 23, 2014, 01:21:58 PM
to repeat things... this isn't "stock but irl"
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on June 23, 2014, 01:27:27 PM
So what, you're saying there can't be creativity in stock? The sportsman class is there so every fight is more creative and not just boring HS vs HS, not to make it IRL.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Naryar on June 23, 2014, 01:44:50 PM
So what, you're saying there can't be creativity in stock? The sportsman class is there so every fight is more creative and not just boring HS vs HS, not to make it IRL.

Nonsense. I am saying this isn't IRL, before newbies make the confusion.

Do not put words I never said in my mouth, Helloface. If I ever say there should be less creativity in RA2, you can safely assume someone hacked my account.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: 123savethewhales on June 23, 2014, 10:33:36 PM
How does any of this make building easier?

So what, you're saying there can't be creativity in stock? The sportsman class is there so every fight is more creative and not just boring HS vs HS, not to make it IRL.
There should be less "creativity" in RA2, since that word has pretty much degenerated into "terrible bots randomly thrown together".
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on June 23, 2014, 10:46:01 PM
So what, you're saying there can't be creativity in stock? The sportsman class is there so every fight is more creative and not just boring HS vs HS, not to make it IRL.
There should be less "creativity" in RA2, since that word has pretty much degenerated into "terrible bots randomly thrown together".
Not trying to be edgy, but that's absolutely retarded.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Trovaner on June 23, 2014, 11:04:17 PM
why ban tribars ? ban unrealistic use of tribars yes, but ban tribars completely, no.
The problem is that the component is just as broken as the 140cm extender with the floating APs due to the way RA2 handles the collision mesh. This isn't about nerfing HS. It has more to do with the fact that the component is *highly* unbalanced and, as a result, we see less variety.

Also, I can't think of a single clear cut way of determining if the use of a tribar is unrealistic. Perhaps if you provided an example.

besides banning tribars nerfs HS and VS quite a bit. HS already have been nerfed enough.
I wouldn't consider HS to be at a complete disadvantage without tribars. Disks work just fine and extenders can be used to make swinging arms. The only notable difference is that weapons won't magically bypass things like snow plows.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: 123savethewhales on June 24, 2014, 06:40:01 AM
So what, you're saying there can't be creativity in stock? The sportsman class is there so every fight is more creative and not just boring HS vs HS, not to make it IRL.
There should be less "creativity" in RA2, since that word has pretty much degenerated into "terrible bots randomly thrown together".
Not trying to be edgy, but that's absolutely retarded.
I am tired of seeing people trying to ban everything that works in the name of creativity, or use creatively as an excuse to why their bot don't work.

Worst is when they call everything that works "abuse".

Banning all the parts you listed will do absolutely nothing to the meta.  It will still be HS against Popups.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: russian roulette on June 24, 2014, 08:07:07 AM
Banning all the parts you listed will do absolutely nothing to the meta.  It will still be HS against Popups.
This is the defining undertone I am getting too. I can see making a sportsman style DSL BBEANS where the robots have to obey IRL building rules, but with the current rules proposed, it's still going to generate a ton of Popups and Hs's. And if the point is to promote other robot styles with a less glitched-defined building style, it's hard for me to justify it especially with how weak many of the components can be in Stock. I don't know if I am interpreting this correctly, but if I am then I think that a strictly IRL style DSL BBEANS MW could be really fun to watch as opposed to setting restrictions to the previously unrestricted, stock.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: cephalopod on June 24, 2014, 08:27:29 AM
I think that a strictly IRL style DSL BBEANS MW could be really fun to watch

No it wouldn't. We've had SO many DSL IRL tournaments recently it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: playzooki on June 24, 2014, 08:30:02 AM
I think that a strictly IRL style DSL BBEANS MW could be really fun to watch

No it wouldn't. We've had SO many DSL IRL tournaments recently it's not even funny.
its not that, but because it is bbeans, everyone would be tryharding. every robot would have a ton of weapon spam.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: russian roulette on June 24, 2014, 09:04:55 AM
Then how about a SHW BBEANS? That's never been done yet.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Mystic2000 on June 24, 2014, 09:48:47 AM
123STW: so you want every single damn fight to be 2 stupid, generic HS boringly deweapon each other?? there is plenty of possibilities with this game, and i don't see why because of some effeciencyfags they should be ignored....

RR: >IRL
      >BBEANS
      pick one
So what, you're saying there can't be creativity in stock? The sportsman class is there so every fight is more creative and not just boring HS vs HS, not to make it IRL.

This, so much this, i mean, hell there is a ton of bot types that can be made, and several of them can be done efficient, so i don't see why instead of exploring all the possibilites that can be done and try to enhance as much bot types as possible, we limit just to 1 or 2 because it kills everything known, that's just ****ing up the potential of what can be created with this game.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Naryar on June 24, 2014, 09:52:03 AM
123 is just sick of bad builders trying to be original and failing because they're inexperienced.

Or he may just be bringing efficiency into a completely unrelated discussion, this is about creating a new, interesting metagame.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: 123savethewhales on June 24, 2014, 12:48:12 PM
I hate how "creativity" is used as an excuse to build generic uninteresting bad bots that functions 20x worst.

How about coming up with <b>NEW IDEAS</b> for a change?  A bot that's clearly doing something new, not just "I swap out good parts for bad parts for no reason".
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: playzooki on June 24, 2014, 12:56:02 PM

How about coming up with <b>NEW IDEAS</b> for a change?  A bot that's clearly doing something new, not just "I swap out good parts for bad parts for no reason".
i agree
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: Clickbeetle on July 05, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
OK I feel like this thread has kind of gotten derailed.

For the record, I agree with 123STW.  I don't want to ban a lot of parts here.  The goal is to be simple, and a long banlist isn't.

I'm tentatively going to say that the ONLY banned components will be cheatbot2, the Snapper II, and 140cm extenders.  Wedges and caster armor won't be banned either (however, you won't be able to stack casters).

I think banning stacking will encourage creativity on its own.  I'll try building some sportsman bots and see how it goes.

Editing first post with tentative final rules.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: SKBT on July 05, 2014, 10:17:14 PM
you should also have a rule that says stay within the intended spirit of the rules.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: El Chickenado on July 05, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
i know this might be a lot but you could run a bbeans tournament in every building style
irl
dsl-s
sportsman stock
and stock
they could take place once every 3 months
but if you dont want to i get it
id enter every building style
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: helloface on July 05, 2014, 10:46:23 PM
BBEANS is way too special to happen every 3 months. It's so major and time consuming too, Click has other things to do too. And IRL BBEANS would suck because it would just feel off.
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: El Chickenado on July 05, 2014, 10:57:30 PM
BBEANS is way too special to happen every 3 months. It's so major and time consuming too, Click has other things to do too. And IRL BBEANS would suck because it would just feel off.
not every year
just one
this is a landmark for BBeans
Title: Re: Stock "Sportsman Class"
Post by: cephalopod on July 06, 2014, 05:07:53 PM
It would feel way off in my opinion. Like I've always tried to say, IRL should about making real LOOKING stuff rather than combat-effective stuff that kinda fits in the guidelines.
This said, I still like the Sportsman Stock idea.