Author Topic: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)  (Read 427 times)

Offline geese

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short and sweet, mechs are more powerful than their dp suggests due to frequency



perm 132:
typhoon l = 2618
mech =  3672
mech (0 frequency) = 1942
typhoon with mech stats (0 freq) = 2507


burst:

typhoon l = 905
mech = 1559
mech (0 frequency) = 802

for reference, a mech disk has 685dp (2.06p/2.74c) and a frequency of 2. large typhoons have 700 (1.75p/3.5c) as everyone probably all knows

weapon to weapon, a large mech is usually fairly even with 2 large typhoons, but it will lose to 4 small typhoons and even 4 large beaters with the patch (overfloat + fracture hits). 4 large vs 2 mechs follows the same pattern. this is all assuming your disk doesn't fall off before your teeth (btw the entire outside edge of the mech does damage)

tldr: mechs deal more damage than their dp value suggests

frequency seems to work as a damage multiplier. mechs have a frequency value of 2, and while not close, the difference is very close to a x2 in testing. also note that return damage scored by the target bot's chassis nearly doubled

idk how true the whole 'contact damage thing is, but that really doesn't matter for this test. i suspect there is some validity to it, but it does it in a way that outright multiplies damage. i guess the hypothesis for this would be that the mech is dealing damage twice before the game can output the points pop-up

regardless, dp once again proves itself to being a poor indicator for actual effectiveness. frequency isn't taken into account for DP, and mechs aren't the only weapon with it (imagine if minions had a decent mesh). i suspect that dual minivores will be the best weapon choice in ow4, but that requires further testing

as for tournament limits, i would say a single mech disk is fair for the standard 4 large/6 small meta. dual mechs probably shouldn't be allowed, but a single mech is somewhere in between the overall power gap of 4 large typhoon and 4 smalls depending on the bot type

also also I'm willing to bet that a decent majority of the community unknowingly has the AS balance patch installed, thus rendering all of this non-relevant. ez way to know is to check the description of the default large typhoon.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 02:23:47 AM by geese »
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Offline geese

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Re: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2019, 03:39:37 AM »
added the results from a typhoon with mech disks stats (no frequency)

also i tired finding a more realistic piercing/concussion mix for spinners. the current formula is realistically only accurate for burst motors as it assume that concussion in all scenarios needs to be twice that of piercing to deal equal damage. this is technically true on spinners, but to get said results we would need motors far more powerful than dsl currently has, or for all of components to weigh next to nothing.


this isn't perfectly accurate, and there's far too many variables to condense into a single number, but i'd say it's a more close to realistic estimation of damage potential based on my experiences

also, arbitrarily buffing/nerfing a single weapon is not balancing the meta, all you're doing is creating a power-creep/reverse power-creep situation with the next best weapon taking the spot, or making large amounts of weapons obsolete in the case of buffing. 90% of the weapons in dsl are always going to be useless due to their shape/normals/hitboxes/etc, and there's far too many weapons to create both a varied and balanced meta. using a one size fits all formula also doesn't help alleviate these issues

to give an example, imagine if ra2 was an fps and every single weapon was a gun. most shooters almost always have a meta of what what gun is the best within a range of a few dozen or so. now imagine if there were 100+ guns and all of them were balanced by a single formula for rate of fire, damage, accuracy. does this sound like it would be a very well balanced game to you? (obviously ra2 is not an fps,  but it's an example of how balance gets worse when more items are added to the equation)
 

also also the AS balance patch is beyond terrible

-a 20kg large typhoon has 509 dp and 4k hp
-a 10kg beater has 311 dp,  2500 hp, and no normals

i hope you can see the issue with this




« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 07:12:50 PM by geese »
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Re: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2019, 10:18:11 AM »
How do microvores fit in all this?
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Offline geese

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Re: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2019, 01:49:09 PM »
How do microvores fit in all this?
they have a frequency value of 2, so I assume they deal twice the damage that they should
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Offline TheOrcCorp

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Re: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2019, 02:31:15 PM »
How do microvores fit in all this?
they have a frequency value of 2, so I assume they deal twice the damage that they should
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Offline geese

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Re: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2019, 04:48:40 AM »
did the microvores

avg = 2315
-------------------
2289
2239
2385
2493
2470
2247
2364
2420
2288
1962

burst - avg = 1180
---------------------------
1097
1250
1046
1234
1528
1152
1026
1051
1194
1226



for reference:
perm 132:
typhoon l = 2618
mech =  3672
micro = 2315

37% weaker than a full size

burst:
typhoon l = 905
mech = 1559
micro = 1180

roughly 25% weaker than a full size mech. this almost exactly matches up with the listed dp difference of the large and small mech (510 vs 685)

in the spinner tests, I suspect that the smaller profile results in less damage due to the smaller teeth getting less contact. if the teeth were larger, i'd be willing to bet that there would be a decent damage increase to at least tie with large typhoons (i tried doing minions, and they dealt pathetically low damage for their stats due to their mesh)

so in total, definitely stronger than the 510 dp suggests. 7000hp@35kgs as well
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:04:02 AM by geese »
Come on guys just leave him alone.  No forum rule exists that ban players from showcasing useless ugly bots.

Offline Badger

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Re: psa: mechs are actually overpowered (technically frequency)
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2019, 06:46:21 AM »
It's a shame that weapons typically used by spinners are so effective when burst motor bots are already inherently at a disadvantage compared to spinner bots.
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**