Author Topic: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"  (Read 1473 times)

Offline Reier

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nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« on: December 19, 2015, 08:42:47 PM »
EDIT: if anyone wants to take a shot with the robot, be my guest

ok so I have this robot Nuclear Load



and its wedges suck hard. I've tried everything I can think of. I've shifted the ballasts, I've changed the drive between single and twinbirds, I've messed around with the skirt positions and angles more times than I can count. I've moved them back and forth and further apart and together again. they still suck.

I honestly hate wedges. I basically always have, and it feels very limiting having to devote resources to a wedge you will basically ALWAYS need for an RA2 bot to be decent. it seems very random to me if you get effective wedginess or not. most of my testing is against the HW popup I made for ReiAI which has pretty good wedges overall. the thing outwedges NL almost every time. Nuclear load is an amazing robot- if it can get under the opponent. AIed, it wins against almost all of the non-wedged robots in IF/ReiAI. I honestly think it's one of the best designs I've ever made, but its incredibly handicapped to its true potential by the low roll I got for my wedge chances.

from what I understand about wedges, the more pressure you can muster with ballasts and stuff the better for the wedge (do only ballasts count to the balance, or do batts too, etc?). You want a vague magical angle for the skirt, not to shallow or too steep. Also bounciness of the robot tends to kill wedges (NL is not bouncy in the slightest even at max spinner speed, smooth as butter baby). Also from what I understand in actual practice though is all the planning in the world can't compare to the luck of the draw if your wedge is good or not.

How can I make these better? This applies to all robots, but in particular NL here. this is just the penultimate example of mine of a killer robot ruined by a crappy wedge. I really could use a hand here guys.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 07:03:43 PM by Reier »

Offline Mr. AS

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2015, 08:59:14 PM »
That chassis shape tends not to be very good for wedges from what I've seen. Good for taking on HS but not so much for really getting under other wedges. You might want to do a |_| shaped chassis.
How you make Alarm Clock Pizza is:
Step 1: You buy an alarm clock from the store, and then you have to break it and put it in the sauce.
Step 2: Fold the sauce in 5 slices and put it in the dough.
Step 3: Paint the eggs with a pitcher of a clock showing what time you want to wake up and eat pizza for breakfast.
Step 4: Put the eggs in the dough.
Step 5: Make it flat into a round shape and draw the time you want on it.
Step 6: Put some old steel to prevent other peple from stealing it.
Step 7: Make it flat and cut into 60 slices 1 for each minute in 1 our.
Step 8: Put in the oven set the timer to 30048813.2884 seconds and put the temperature on 'Volcano' setting.
Step 9: If you think it is take to long, then get yor alarm clock and set it to now so that it will ring and you can take it out.
Step 10: Take it out uv the uvin wen it is redy and go to bed. In the morning eat pizza and also eat yor hands bi mistake.

Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2015, 09:01:27 PM »
But why would it not be good for wedges? I'm not doubting you but it has no effective differences from just a box does it? Is it just not as heavy in the front or something?

and which of these were you talking about?


Offline Mr. AS

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2015, 09:13:52 PM »
That chassis shape generally causes your wedges to be closer together, which is bad.

Any of the bottom two are fine, but the one on the bottom left causes your chassis weight to go way up IIRC.
How you make Alarm Clock Pizza is:
Step 1: You buy an alarm clock from the store, and then you have to break it and put it in the sauce.
Step 2: Fold the sauce in 5 slices and put it in the dough.
Step 3: Paint the eggs with a pitcher of a clock showing what time you want to wake up and eat pizza for breakfast.
Step 4: Put the eggs in the dough.
Step 5: Make it flat into a round shape and draw the time you want on it.
Step 6: Put some old steel to prevent other peple from stealing it.
Step 7: Make it flat and cut into 60 slices 1 for each minute in 1 our.
Step 8: Put in the oven set the timer to 30048813.2884 seconds and put the temperature on 'Volcano' setting.
Step 9: If you think it is take to long, then get yor alarm clock and set it to now so that it will ring and you can take it out.
Step 10: Take it out uv the uvin wen it is redy and go to bed. In the morning eat pizza and also eat yor hands bi mistake.

Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2015, 09:20:41 PM »
That chassis shape generally causes your wedges to be closer together, which is bad.

Any of the bottom two are fine, but the one on the bottom left causes your chassis weight to go way up IIRC.
why would closer wedges be bad? I have tried them further apart on this design but I have to move them back a la this robot here which didn't help things at all. heck I've even tried angling them in and out and its still crap
I'm also very hesitant to change the chassis and I don't even know if I could fit in the items as well (if at all) with a much different setup without sacrificing something major.

what about the ballast placement? I have those 2 in the back for stability which really helps. I have moved them forwards before in front of the firebirds but it seems to make no difference. I've even tested it with an extra like 6 ballasts in front to see if it changes anything and it still gets wrecked. I have no idea how weight distribution affects wedges.

Offline Squirrel_Monkey

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2015, 05:40:31 AM »
Honestly it might just be the weapons system. Any weapons system with a component of angular rotation vertically is going to affect the wedges. It's a tough science but I don't think there's one quick fix without rebuilding the robot with a different spirit.
Better than GK since 2009.
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Offline Meganerdbomb

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2015, 09:59:42 AM »
Making them bigger and further apart generally makes then better, within reason, of course. I have literally no idea why, but it's just how it seems to work. I'd try going up a size or two with your skirts, and making the angle just a tad steeper. Any way you could get them wider would also help. For some reason any boy whose wedges go wider than yours a la Krampus, will be able to get under you. The exception being if you get inside their wedges and hit the chassis before their wedges reach you, so you could always try one long skirt in the center instead. Won't help you against bots with full wedge coverage, but might be worth testing.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:22:29 AM by Meganerdbomb »
im just waiting for meganerdbomb to come along and kick things into gear.
#freeavalanche #unbanlra2

Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2015, 12:56:40 PM »
Making them bigger and further apart generally makes then better, within reason, of course. I have literally no idea why, but it's just how it seems to work. I'd try going up a size or two with your skirts, and making the angle just a tad steeper. Any way you could get them wider would also help. For some reason any boy whose wedges go wider than yours a la Krampus, will be able to get under you. The exception being if you get inside their wedges and hit the chassis before their wedges reach you, so you could always try one long skirt in the center instead. Won't help you against bots with full wedge coverage, but might be worth testing.
ive already tried all of those

Offline Meganerdbomb

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2015, 01:34:58 PM »
Making them bigger and further apart generally makes then better, within reason, of course. I have literally no idea why, but it's just how it seems to work. I'd try going up a size or two with your skirts, and making the angle just a tad steeper. Any way you could get them wider would also help. For some reason any boy whose wedges go wider than yours a la Krampus, will be able to get under you. The exception being if you get inside their wedges and hit the chassis before their wedges reach you, so you could always try one long skirt in the center instead. Won't help you against bots with full wedge coverage, but might be worth testing.
ive already tried all of those
Then yeah what AS and Squirrel Monkey said.
im just waiting for meganerdbomb to come along and kick things into gear.
#freeavalanche #unbanlra2

Offline Naryar

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2015, 05:39:15 PM »
I think it's the weapon system. IIRC Angled spinner = your wedges are going to suffer.

May also be certain weapons... i know vertically spinning maces disagree with wedges in stock. Maybe it's the blunt teeth ?

Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2015, 07:02:54 PM »
I think it's the weapon system. IIRC Angled spinner = your wedges are going to suffer.

May also be certain weapons... i know vertically spinning maces disagree with wedges in stock. Maybe it's the blunt teeth ?
i've tried removing the weapon system (and adding ballasts to keep the same weight) for testing and its basically the same from what I can tell.

i seriously cannot find a way to make this thing good. like I mean its okay, but I want the wedges to be amazing. it's really the only major thing holding this robot back. I've tried a few different chassis builds too but the robot then has problems other than the wedge. I want to keep this chassis.

i've just uploaded the bot if anyone wants to take a crack at it. I've done pretty much everything I can think of at this point (probably 40+ variations) and I can't do it.

Offline kill343gs

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2015, 07:19:53 PM »
Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Maybe the pressure being placed on the wedges has something to do with when the wedges are put on the bot, similar to how weight distribution when attaching wheels affects straight line driveability.

Probably 100% not true, but worth a shot.


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Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2015, 07:30:48 PM »
Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Maybe the pressure being placed on the wedges has something to do with when the wedges are put on the bot, similar to how weight distribution when attaching wheels affects straight line driveability.

Probably 100% not true, but worth a shot.

but then wouldn't it be better if you put them on last with ballasts in place and sutff? I usually do and I don't think it changes anything. 

Offline Meganerdbomb

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2015, 08:47:12 PM »
Ok, so I've tried a few different things, and it seems like the weapon motion isn't the problem, at least not the only,  because even if I don't activate the weapon, Krampus gets under it with ease. It really does pulverize anything that can't get under it though. I'm kinda scared of what what would happen if the wedges were good.
im just waiting for meganerdbomb to come along and kick things into gear.
#freeavalanche #unbanlra2

Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2015, 10:40:16 PM »
41st try's the charm i guess?
I got lucky finally


basically if I change ANYTHING the wedges immediately become crap. but as-is they're great. it consistently outwedges everything in IF/ReiAI/Reforged except a couple SHWs and still ASpull sometimes :rage.
now I just gotta fix the invertibility problem the longer wedges and shark fin gave me and I think this thing is pretty much as good as I can make it.

(off the wedge note: the shark fin I added in the middle there is really nice (and it looks badass ;) ). it just pins things and keeps them from sailing over the weapons which happened on the old setup. I also added twinbirds with large ant wheels and this thing just pins opponents like nobody's business. also got rid of the razors on the spinner because they oddly enough didn't do much. might kill things faster without them actually.)

anyway
I'm glad it worked out more or less but I still don't feel like I understand why this setup works great and all the other ones I tried suck hard. I don't feel like I learned much and I still think it's incredibly luck based. One thing I did learn is it dramatically increases your chances if you turn a bit before hitting the other guy but I have no idea why the flip that's a thing. I actually purposefully made the thing veer when going forward and it actually gets under ASpull more often than straight. ughhhhhhhhhhhhh ra2




EDIT MORE TEXT WOO: one thing I think I did figure out is that there doesnt seem to be much of a difference between the straight and angled skirts when they hit dead on. what it seems like to me though is the 45 skirt gets "less wedgy" as you get further away from the center of the hinge:

so basically the one with wider wedges hits the other one in a "weaker spot" and will thus win more often. I'm sure some people already knew this but its news to me. so basically against ASpull NL got slaughtered because the popup kept using the strong part of its wedge against the edge of NL's which sucks.

Offline Clickbeetle

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2015, 01:47:18 PM »
That makes sense for anyone who's tried doing this kind of thing:

Code: [Select]
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[__]
 ||
 ||
 ||_______
 |________|
        |SN|
        |AP|
        |PE|
        |R2|

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Offline Sage

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2015, 02:27:57 PM »
That makes sense for anyone who's tried doing this kind of thing:

Code: [Select]
__
[__]
 ||
 ||
 ||_______
 |________|
        |SN|
        |AP|
        |PE|
        |R2|

I feel terrible that it took me 8 years before I knew this was bad wedge design
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Offline Reier

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Re: nuclear load's wedges are killing me - "make good wedges thread"
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2015, 12:27:02 PM »
on the flip side though I feel like a steeper wedge is usually worse than a shallow one when they hit head on, but somehow better when they hit at an angle. I need to test this more.