gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Reier on December 19, 2015, 08:42:47 PM
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EDIT: if anyone wants to take a shot with the robot, be my guest (https://gametechmods.com/Robot_Exchange/Ironforge_HW/Reier_HW-Nuclear%20Load.bot)
ok so I have this robot Nuclear Load
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/18862NL5.png) (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/85778NL6.png)
and its wedges suck hard. I've tried everything I can think of. I've shifted the ballasts, I've changed the drive between single and twinbirds, I've messed around with the skirt positions and angles more times than I can count. I've moved them back and forth and further apart and together again. they still suck.
I honestly hate wedges. I basically always have, and it feels very limiting having to devote resources to a wedge you will basically ALWAYS need for an RA2 bot to be decent. it seems very random to me if you get effective wedginess or not. most of my testing is against the HW popup I made for ReiAI which has pretty good wedges overall. the thing outwedges NL almost every time. Nuclear load is an amazing robot- if it can get under the opponent. AIed, it wins against almost all of the non-wedged robots in IF/ReiAI. I honestly think it's one of the best designs I've ever made, but its incredibly handicapped to its true potential by the low roll I got for my wedge chances.
from what I understand about wedges, the more pressure you can muster with ballasts and stuff the better for the wedge (do only ballasts count to the balance, or do batts too, etc?). You want a vague magical angle for the skirt, not to shallow or too steep. Also bounciness of the robot tends to kill wedges (NL is not bouncy in the slightest even at max spinner speed, smooth as butter baby). Also from what I understand in actual practice though is all the planning in the world can't compare to the luck of the draw if your wedge is good or not.
How can I make these better? This applies to all robots, but in particular NL here. this is just the penultimate example of mine of a killer robot ruined by a crappy wedge. I really could use a hand here guys.
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That chassis shape tends not to be very good for wedges from what I've seen. Good for taking on HS but not so much for really getting under other wedges. You might want to do a |_| shaped chassis.
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But why would it not be good for wedges? I'm not doubting you but it has no effective differences from just a box does it? Is it just not as heavy in the front or something?
and which of these were you talking about?
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/37754bodytype.png)
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That chassis shape generally causes your wedges to be closer together, which is bad.
Any of the bottom two are fine, but the one on the bottom left causes your chassis weight to go way up IIRC.
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That chassis shape generally causes your wedges to be closer together, which is bad.
Any of the bottom two are fine, but the one on the bottom left causes your chassis weight to go way up IIRC.
why would closer wedges be bad? I have tried them further apart on this design but I have to move them back a la this robot here (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/27987screenshot_6.png) which didn't help things at all. heck I've even tried angling them in and out and its still crap
I'm also very hesitant to change the chassis and I don't even know if I could fit in the items as well (if at all) with a much different setup without sacrificing something major.
what about the ballast placement? I have those 2 in the back for stability which really helps. I have moved them forwards before in front of the firebirds but it seems to make no difference. I've even tested it with an extra like 6 ballasts in front to see if it changes anything and it still gets wrecked. I have no idea how weight distribution affects wedges.
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Honestly it might just be the weapons system. Any weapons system with a component of angular rotation vertically is going to affect the wedges. It's a tough science but I don't think there's one quick fix without rebuilding the robot with a different spirit.
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Making them bigger and further apart generally makes then better, within reason, of course. I have literally no idea why, but it's just how it seems to work. I'd try going up a size or two with your skirts, and making the angle just a tad steeper. Any way you could get them wider would also help. For some reason any boy whose wedges go wider than yours a la Krampus, will be able to get under you. The exception being if you get inside their wedges and hit the chassis before their wedges reach you, so you could always try one long skirt in the center instead. Won't help you against bots with full wedge coverage, but might be worth testing.
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Making them bigger and further apart generally makes then better, within reason, of course. I have literally no idea why, but it's just how it seems to work. I'd try going up a size or two with your skirts, and making the angle just a tad steeper. Any way you could get them wider would also help. For some reason any boy whose wedges go wider than yours a la Krampus, will be able to get under you. The exception being if you get inside their wedges and hit the chassis before their wedges reach you, so you could always try one long skirt in the center instead. Won't help you against bots with full wedge coverage, but might be worth testing.
ive already tried all of those
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Making them bigger and further apart generally makes then better, within reason, of course. I have literally no idea why, but it's just how it seems to work. I'd try going up a size or two with your skirts, and making the angle just a tad steeper. Any way you could get them wider would also help. For some reason any boy whose wedges go wider than yours a la Krampus, will be able to get under you. The exception being if you get inside their wedges and hit the chassis before their wedges reach you, so you could always try one long skirt in the center instead. Won't help you against bots with full wedge coverage, but might be worth testing.
ive already tried all of those
Then yeah what AS and Squirrel Monkey said.
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I think it's the weapon system. IIRC Angled spinner = your wedges are going to suffer.
May also be certain weapons... i know vertically spinning maces disagree with wedges in stock. Maybe it's the blunt teeth ?
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I think it's the weapon system. IIRC Angled spinner = your wedges are going to suffer.
May also be certain weapons... i know vertically spinning maces disagree with wedges in stock. Maybe it's the blunt teeth ?
i've tried removing the weapon system (and adding ballasts to keep the same weight) for testing and its basically the same from what I can tell.
i seriously cannot find a way to make this thing good. like I mean its okay, but I want the wedges to be amazing. it's really the only major thing holding this robot back. I've tried a few different chassis builds too but the robot then has problems other than the wedge. I want to keep this chassis.
i've just uploaded the bot (https://gametechmods.com/Robot_Exchange/Ironforge_HW/Reier_HW-Nuclear%20Load.bot) if anyone wants to take a crack at it. I've done pretty much everything I can think of at this point (probably 40+ variations) and I can't do it.
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Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Maybe the pressure being placed on the wedges has something to do with when the wedges are put on the bot, similar to how weight distribution when attaching wheels affects straight line driveability.
Probably 100% not true, but worth a shot.
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Here's a thought that just occurred to me. Maybe the pressure being placed on the wedges has something to do with when the wedges are put on the bot, similar to how weight distribution when attaching wheels affects straight line driveability.
Probably 100% not true, but worth a shot.
but then wouldn't it be better if you put them on last with ballasts in place and sutff? I usually do and I don't think it changes anything.
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Ok, so I've tried a few different things, and it seems like the weapon motion isn't the problem, at least not the only, because even if I don't activate the weapon, Krampus gets under it with ease. It really does pulverize anything that can't get under it though. I'm kinda scared of what what would happen if the wedges were good.
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41st try's the charm i guess?
I got lucky finally
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/88232NLluckywedge.png)
basically if I change ANYTHING the wedges immediately become crap. but as-is they're great. it consistently outwedges everything in IF/ReiAI/Reforged except a couple SHWs and still ASpull sometimes :rage.
now I just gotta fix the invertibility problem the longer wedges and shark fin gave me and I think this thing is pretty much as good as I can make it.
(off the wedge note: the shark fin I added in the middle there is really nice (and it looks badass ;) ). it just pins things and keeps them from sailing over the weapons which happened on the old setup. I also added twinbirds with large ant wheels and this thing just pins opponents like nobody's business. also got rid of the razors on the spinner because they oddly enough didn't do much. might kill things faster without them actually.)
anyway
I'm glad it worked out more or less but I still don't feel like I understand why this setup works great and all the other ones I tried suck hard. I don't feel like I learned much and I still think it's incredibly luck based. One thing I did learn is it dramatically increases your chances if you turn a bit before hitting the other guy but I have no idea why the flip that's a thing. I actually purposefully made the thing veer when going forward and it actually gets under ASpull more often than straight. ughhhhhhhhhhhhh ra2
EDIT MORE TEXT WOO: one thing I think I did figure out is that there doesnt seem to be much of a difference between the straight and angled skirts when they hit dead on. what it seems like to me though is the 45 skirt gets "less wedgy" as you get further away from the center of the hinge:
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/58815wedges are gay.png) (https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/10713wedges are gay pt2.png)
so basically the one with wider wedges hits the other one in a "weaker spot" and will thus win more often. I'm sure some people already knew this but its news to me. so basically against ASpull NL got slaughtered because the popup kept using the strong part of its wedge against the edge of NL's which sucks.
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That makes sense for anyone who's tried doing this kind of thing:
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That makes sense for anyone who's tried doing this kind of thing:
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I feel terrible that it took me 8 years before I knew this was bad wedge design
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on the flip side though I feel like a steeper wedge is usually worse than a shallow one when they hit head on, but somehow better when they hit at an angle. I need to test this more.