gametechmods

Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 04:20:00 PM

Title: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
I'm busting out the decent grammar so you know this is a big deal. I've been thinking about this for a long time now.

    Havok. Ro7 (formerly). AGOD. These all suck. But there is one tragedy of ra2 that is more tragic than all the others.
Online play. Without it, half of the game is locked. I'm not exaggerating.
I feel like most people don't even drive their robots anymore, and I understand why. AI tournaments are the only way we can really compete, so why bother testing them in a way that is irrelevant? This, i think, is the most unfortunate part of the game currently. Driving your own robot is just as much of a part of the game as building it, and is very undervalued because people aren't used to it. It's almost a lost art. I really think if online ra2 is fixed that it could almost single-handedly extend the life of the game for years. Hear me out.

    Being able to drive your robot opens up new worlds in RA2 that I think most people don't even consider. Suddenly useless bot types become viable. Rammers and Pushers can be incredibly lethal in the hands of a good driver who knows how and when to pin and uses arena hazards to his advantage (yes, hazards). Powerful bot types become weaker in the absence of ai. HS and SnS are easily avoided - simply wait them out until an ideal opportunity, ai has to move forward but you don't! Spikeballs against an opponent who does not brainlessly rush to them are not scary at all. Wedges would becomes considerably less common when the human ability to flank opponents becomes the norm.
    Bigger still, new building techniques on a scale never seen before would be opened up. No longer do you have to only protect the front of your robot. You can add a separate system on the back and switch between them at will. Adaptive weapon systems using servos and linear actuators (think Seism 13's wedges, or this (https://youtu.be/8jvlI3xEoU0?t=35)) can be just as viable if there is a human controlling them. Mecanum-like drive systems allowing your robot to strafe are easily driven by a human with a bit of practice. it's mind blowing how much the game opens up creatively once you remove ai limitations.
    Another huge deal though is the variety in arenas that would be available to use (or create). This has huge implications on all the other points above. Fight in the octagon or the compressor or heck even the obstacle course arenas with no trouble. Certain bot types that are normally obscenely powerful become weak in the right arena. SnS ruining your day? Pit him. Push him under a hammer! Use your brain! People don't even think of these things since they haven't had to for so long. New crazy arenas that take immense driving skill that ai would destroy themselves on can become crazy fun to play on and watch. One person can build and hand the robot off to a person who is amazing at driving! There are so many possibilities.
    However possibly the biggest benefit though is it would make tournaments a total blast. Like, seriously. Seeing a robot driven by people as opposed to AIed is night and day. You can use flair! You can use strategy. you can make fun of sage cause he cant drive And most of all, it is much more fun to watch. I guarantee tournaments will take off if you can see videos of human opponents. Half the people don't even watch tournament videos anymore and just read synopses. Online play will add some much needed entertainment value.

This is just the beginning.
There are so many possibilities that most people don't even think of because they are so used to building around ai limitations and thinking in that limited mindset.


I beg, I IMPLORE the community to try and find a fix for this. This is the BIGGEST issue in RA2 right now bar none.
We used to play RA2 on 'lan' severs hosted on Hamachi, which was unplayable. We currently use Gameranger, which is slightly less unplayable, but still abysmal (ie 10+ second lag at times). I know for a fact that RA2 works like a dream when played on an actual local network. There is no input delay whatsoever. I've tried with college buddies and its the most fun I think i've ever had in the game. THIS is how RA2 was meant to be played. I'm trying to find solutions but I'm not the best at netcode or modding and am only one man. But I guarantee that if online becomes a reality, this will save the game.

Is it possible to host a dedicated ra2 server? From what I've heard when gamespy was up the lag was not necessarily bad, but i'm not sure if it's possible to host a personal one at all, let alone with good results. That might be a good first step if anyone has a server they would be willing to test with. apanx and i messed around a little with another client (http://www.gaminganywhere.org/download.html) but its a bit too early to see how good this is.

Please discuss, we need to find some sort of fix for this. Any ideas would help.







Possible solutions / Issues

Hamachi / incredible latency issues for the non-host, upwards of 10+ seconds of lag.
Gameranger / similar to hamachi, though generally slightly better performance. still bad.
Alternative such as Tunngle? / TBD
Dedicated server / TBD, may not be possible
Gaminganywhere VM client /apanx is testing this a bit and seems to have a bit of luck so far, still seems to be fairly laggy without a way to mess with RA2 coding
NVIDIA Gamestream (thanks Mattiator) / Requires both parties to have NVIDIA cards, and both parties to have a copy of the robot. other issues TBD, but seems to currently be the most promising option
Parsec Gaming / client similar to NVIDIA Gamestream, but without the NVIDIA card requirement. Initial testing shows promise.



bring up any ideas and I'll add useful ones to this post. And please, just because the possible solutions may have issues doesn't mean it's out of the park. please test on them if you can. Anything helps.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: TheRoboteer on January 05, 2017, 04:26:15 PM
Opened this expecting another sh**post but you raise a great point. If this game had actual, functioning online play I could see myself playing it pretty much every day, and, like you said, it would make previously useless classes of bot viable and encourage innovation in the bot building scene.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: playzooki on January 05, 2017, 04:33:02 PM
100% this, even on gameranger ra2 online is much more fun than ai tournaments
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mecha on January 05, 2017, 04:33:52 PM
I support this idea, I'd love to watch/be a part of a tournament where the builders drive their own creations, It'd also be fun to notice the different driving styles of different members.
Also, no more "YOU AI'D RONG". I'm kinda tired of getting screwed over by dumbass AI.
So, good post. Title is kinda dramatic, though.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Baconus_Yum on January 05, 2017, 04:36:24 PM
I would have to agree. Members that have been here for many years are just leaving. The AI is stupid. If real drivers could really drive the robots, you can have great tournaments with actual twists.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 04:38:59 PM
I support this idea, I'd love to watch/be a part of a tournament where the builders drive their own creations, It'd also be fun to notice the different driving styles of different members.
Also, no more "YOU AI'D RONG", I'm kinda tired of getting screwed over by dumbass AI
So, good post. Title is kinda dramatic, though.

the title is a bit clickbaitey but i believe it completely. I guarantee this will open up so many possibilities if it happens.

just don't know how to make it a reality. any suggestions at all would be very welcome. I'm particularly interested if it's possible to host a dedicated ra2 sever for starters

Opened this expecting another sh**post but you raise a great point. If this game had actual, functioning online play I could see myself playing it pretty much every day, and, like you said, it would make previously useless classes of bot viable and encourage innovation in the bot building scene.
that's the thing, it would add a whole other facet to the game which is basically dead.
also i dont sh**post
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: F1Krazy on January 05, 2017, 04:47:02 PM
Oh man I would love to see this happen. Since I still haven't learned to AI yet, I test all my robots through manual driving, and I dare say I'm fairly good at it.

It would be very interesting to see how the metagame would change, going from AI battles to human battles. One thing I can think of that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet is attack timing: the AI will just fire an axe or a flipper willy-nilly, whereas a human can time the blows for maximum impact, and also gauge how much battery/gas they have left and adapt their tactics. So you could definitely have more strategic battles in that way. There's also the matter of melee battles: you can decide which opponents to take on and which to avoid rather than the AI driving around attacking things at random. Arena hazards would come into play more, pushing power would come into play more... it would definitely be fun to do, and fun to watch.

Sadly, I have no idea how to netcode.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 04:58:13 PM
just makes me sad since i KNOW how awesome ra2 can be. i've played it locally and its lag free and a thousand times better than ai matches. i just don't know what a good solution would be since hamachi and gameranger are so trash.

obviously latency is an issue anywhere but its unplayable in ra2 with those clients.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Philippa on January 05, 2017, 05:07:01 PM
Hasn't this thread already been and gone a bunch of times? I agree entirely (because I want Wipeout or some other obstacle course kinda sh** type tournament) but I mean, wouldn't we have a solution by now?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 05:10:02 PM
Hasn't this thread already been and gone a bunch of times? I agree entirely (because I want Wipeout or some other obstacle course kinda sh** type tournament) but I mean, wouldn't we have a solution by now?
not really. first off, people don't know just what they are missing by ditching ai limitations, and that's what my OP was about.
the tough part though is a solution to this. Heck, just open to anything at this point. apanx and I mess around a bit but didn't have a lot of success. Serge and he and are two of the more tech-y people on this forum and have a higher chance of success than I do, but I'm still trying to find solutions. I'm just trying to make the issue known so we can hopefully finally flippin fix this thing and actually play the game for real.



post ideas and I may add them to the OP if that helps clarity
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Badnik96 on January 05, 2017, 05:51:24 PM
this is why i play gmod


(inb4 hurr badnik i thought you ragequit)
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on January 05, 2017, 06:11:52 PM
Playing with myself, forever alone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twut1EbplS4
Good VPN.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 06:36:52 PM
dude amazing!
is there a way to try it with larger distances and see how good that works?

keep us updated man, this is very nice indeed
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Sage on January 05, 2017, 09:50:58 PM
tfw apanx comes back and single-handedly saves RA2
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 05, 2017, 10:04:02 PM
But if we do this, Clickbeetle would have to call it the Bot Battle for Eminent Operated Supremacy. BBEOS?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 05, 2017, 10:05:47 PM
we appreciate anything apanx can come up with but he is also just one man... i mean don't let that stop anyone else from trying to come up with solutions as well
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 06, 2017, 07:27:38 AM
Tournaments hosted and played by humans.. count me in!! just how many batlles went the other way cuz of poor AI?!
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on January 06, 2017, 08:46:43 AM
Instead of RA3, it would have been better for the the developers just to have given us RA2 multiplayer xD
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on January 06, 2017, 09:14:48 AM
You could try self hosted VPN and see if how well multiplayer works
http://www.howtogeek.com/135996/how-to-create-a-vpn-server-on-your-windows-computer-without-installing-any-software/
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 07, 2017, 08:22:44 AM
You forgot Evolve
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Badger on January 07, 2017, 08:27:57 AM
You forgot Evolve
wtf are you on about
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 07, 2017, 08:28:58 AM
Evolve is GameRanger alternative
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 07, 2017, 04:37:52 PM
There may be a fix.
There are  other games that use the disconnected gamespy.
One is CIV4
I saw something there that you could remove the Gamespy files. Then use windows firewall. I think i saw you guys doing that.
The main problem is Gamespy. But we need to figure out how to do that. I think some of us have.

You can also use Zulan's .
This is another game that used game spy. May not be to useful but I will just put it here in case.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/guide-how-to-play-civ4-or-bts-multiplayer-these-days.550513/
It contains what to do with gamespy files.
Here is another link to multiplayer after gamespy. May be helpful
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=7544

Hope something help. Don't   hate me if it does not.
Also see this http://www.pcworld.com/article/2141200/gamespy-is-shutting-down-but-it-doesnt-matter-if-youre-proactive.html

Even if this works it will be different because all games are different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TV09dbynbw&list=PLt-vt3IenJUF6nbwSLt-oZtAZzPyb_NHI
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Baconus_Yum on January 07, 2017, 05:23:30 PM
There may be a fix.
There are  other games that use the disconnected gamespy.
Woah.
Asbestosstar might be on to something.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 07, 2017, 05:28:03 PM
Maybe. I first found out when i look at the stuff for CIV4. And on the game spy Wikipedia page where it said it was defect.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 07, 2017, 06:18:17 PM

Multiplayer RA2 blew on GameSpy. The poor latency and scheduling are why AI events became popular.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 07, 2017, 10:11:08 PM
Yes but it was how ra2 multiplayer was.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 07, 2017, 10:15:50 PM
Yes but it was how ra2 multiplayer was.

But that's not the goal most of us want. We're trying to fix it. We want to make great again in the first place.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 07, 2017, 10:25:43 PM
What I am saying is to get rid of the game spy and replace it with another server. Read.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Avalanche on January 08, 2017, 08:13:38 AM
What I am saying is to get rid of the game spy and replace it with another server. Read.

He did read, you just aren't listening. He's saying that gamespy or no gamespy, the RA2 multiplayer has horrendous latency and was poor for scheduling matches, thus BBEANS came in and made everything automated and AI'd. I'm willing to bet that just replacing the server used won't automatically fix RA2's multiplayer. Also, with CIV 4, if they managed to remove the gamespy files, i'm willing to bet it would take a Serge or Apanx to patch in Openspy, because i'm willing to bet it's coded right in the .exe, mainly because everything that we could ever want to mod is always in the ****ing .exe. (save_us.serge)
If someone wanted to try and run it through a different server, have a look at Openspy. I know basically nothing about it other than THUGPRO (Tony Hawk's Underground Pro, based off Tony Hawk's Underground 2) runs off Openspy and it works bloody well, so if you want to try it, have a go. I still think that we need to do this in a method that does not involve things like Hamachi or Gameranger.

Evolve is GameRanger alternative

TGM, do you wish to test this sometime? A good test for Evolve would be to see if we could play a half decent match: I'm in England, you are in Croatia. If this works without major lag, then we have something to work on considering it works between countries, something that is pretty impressive.

It has the capacity for VLAN Parties, so it might be able to work like the VPN Apanx has shown, but i'll be ****ed if i know. at worst it'll be an hamachi alternative.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 08, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
We may do another server. But it may be true that it is bad. I am just trying to answer this thread. But there are no gamespy files as you said. It may be in an EXE.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 10, 2017, 02:45:06 AM
Evolve is GameRanger alternative

TGM, do you wish to test this sometime? A good test for Evolve would be to see if we could play a half decent match: I'm in England, you are in Croatia. If this works without major lag, then we have something to work on considering it works between countries, something that is pretty impressive.

It has the capacity for VLAN Parties, so it might be able to work like the VPN Apanx has shown, but i'll be ****ed if i know. at worst it'll be an hamachi alternative.

Sure!
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Avalanche on January 10, 2017, 04:26:07 AM
Evolve is GameRanger alternative

TGM, do you wish to test this sometime? A good test for Evolve would be to see if we could play a half decent match: I'm in England, you are in Croatia. If this works without major lag, then we have something to work on considering it works between countries, something that is pretty impressive.

It has the capacity for VLAN Parties, so it might be able to work like the VPN Apanx has shown, but i'll be ****ed if i know. at worst it'll be an hamachi alternative.

Sure!
[/quote]

If I get my life in order and handle homework properly we can test it at the weekend.
(ps: please don't delete the quote author label:
at the top with my name on it, it makes the quote not appear properly.)

edit: ironically for a post asking to not F up the quote label, i royally messed up the formatting. not fixing tho because can't be bothered.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 10, 2017, 04:29:58 AM
Yeah.. i accidently deleted it... i more thought like today.. as i will have no net (maybe) at weekend.. ill be out at friends.. and he has no pc..
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Avalanche on January 10, 2017, 04:38:47 AM
Yeah.. i accidently deleted it... i more thought like today.. as i will have no net (maybe) at weekend.. ill be out at friends.. and he has no pc..
It depends if I can sort out homework. I'll see if I can make it today, but no promises I'm afraid.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 10, 2017, 04:40:31 AM
K.. if you make it.. send me a message..
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Serge on January 21, 2017, 06:11:16 PM
Looking into the RA2 network layer sounds like an interesting project…

Might give it a shot some day.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Meganerdbomb on January 21, 2017, 06:13:12 PM
Looking into the RA2 network layer sounds like an interesting project…

Might give it a shot some day.
don't tease us so
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Scrap Daddy on January 21, 2017, 07:27:19 PM
Looking into the RA2 network layer sounds like an interesting project…

Might give it a shot some day.
don't tease us so
serge pls
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mr. AS on January 21, 2017, 07:48:46 PM
Looking into the RA2 network layer sounds like an interesting project…

Might give it a shot some day.
don't tease us so
serge pls
you better not be doing me a bamboozle son
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on January 24, 2017, 03:36:21 PM
Fooling around with Badger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTdspY2QYDQ
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 24, 2017, 03:39:53 PM
Fooling around with Badger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTdspY2QYDQ

That's cool. #understatement
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 24, 2017, 03:50:04 PM
how delayed was it for the non-host
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Badger on January 24, 2017, 04:48:09 PM
on the edge of playable. Still very laggy. I imagine LW DSL IRL fights where neither bots are extenderbots would be playable, just.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: DeadGenocide on January 24, 2017, 05:31:05 PM
on the edge of playable. Still very laggy. I imagine LW DSL IRL fights where neither bots are extenderbots would be playable, just.
Christ you played as Kris Wolf

also does anyone see that it says penut butta during the count before i fight where a bot name isn't showing
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 24, 2017, 05:41:07 PM
also does anyone see that it says penut butta during the count before i fight where a bot name isn't showing

Yep. That's the placeholder name a programmer implemented. I guess preventing the extra panels from showing up was extra work or something.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Serge on January 26, 2017, 09:50:17 AM
Ah, the game uses DirectPlay :/. One one hand - COM is a pain. On the other, I at least don't have to reverse engineer the wire format.

It also does not work under Wine:

Code: [Select]
fixme:dpnet:IDirectPlay8PeerImpl_SetPeerInfo (0xfe0f20)->(0x33f3d4,(nil),(nil),80000000) Semi-stub.
fixme:dpnet:IDirectPlay8PeerImpl_Host (0xfe0f20)->(0x33f3ec,0x72e0b4,1,(nil),(nil),(nil),0): stub

Looks like I'll have to resuscitate the ol' Windows laptop I have somewhere...
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Badger on January 26, 2017, 12:03:46 PM
Ah, the game uses DirectPlay :/. One one hand - COM is a pain. On the other, I at least don't have to reverse engineer the wire format.

It also does not work under Wine:

Code: [Select]
fixme:dpnet:IDirectPlay8PeerImpl_SetPeerInfo (0xfe0f20)->(0x33f3d4,(nil),(nil),80000000) Semi-stub.
fixme:dpnet:IDirectPlay8PeerImpl_Host (0xfe0f20)->(0x33f3ec,0x72e0b4,1,(nil),(nil),(nil),0): stub

Looks like I'll have to resuscitate the ol' Windows laptop I have somewhere...
So you're saying that the prognosis isn't good? What are the chances that you can make the online more playable?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mattiator on February 04, 2017, 10:11:13 PM
Okay, so I've done a bit of testing with a friend in the US, me being in Canada, operating RA2's local multiplayer via NVIDIA Gamestream seems to wipe out the lag almost entirely. Even against a pair of heavy trinity-spinner melty brain robots in a four-way match, the game remained entirely playable for both host and client.

HOWEVER. This method has its own drawbacks. For one, since you are effectively tricking the game into thinking you're playing locally, the host needs to have the bot of the other player on their local system, and also needs to set up their controls so there are no conflicts with the controls of their own robot. This is also heavily trust based, since the host could in theory tamper with the other player's robot prior to fighting. The host NEEDS a Gamestream compatible NVIDIA graphics card in order to host a game, which would cut out a LOT of potential players. I have not tested this method with more than two players, but by default GameStream only supports a single additional player, which eliminates this as an option for rumbles.

In the end though, we had a blast playing RA2 together without any of the lag that plagues GameRanger or other similar solutions, and it is definitely worth investigating further.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on February 04, 2017, 10:42:53 PM
Nividea.
I that used for most multiplayer games? I know civ4 uses it but I don't know what for,. How do you set up the nividea?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mattiator on February 04, 2017, 11:02:24 PM
The host requires an NVIDIA Graphics Card, but (obviously) RA2 isn't included as one of the 'compatible' titles NVIDIA searches for. Open NVIDIA GeForce Experience program, go under the gear (options), and find the "Shield" section. Add your Robot Arena 2.exe file.

Now to get the Gamestream software setup. Open Robot Arena 2. You should see in the upper right corner the NVIDIA Gamestream sidebar pop up, saying "press Alt-z to being streaming" or something similar. Press the button it says. Click "Stream". Click "Guest Controls". Select "Plays as me". Ensure under the gear icon (options), that under "Stream", "Allow friend to join and play as a guest" is set to "Yes".

Now to get your friend in. Click "Copy Invite URL". Get the invite URL from your clipboard, to the other player (who does NOT require an NVIDIA graphics card) by whatever means you prefer (Steam, Discord, carrier pigeon). Have them click the link. They will need to install the NVIDIA Gamestream browser extension. This should allow them to connect to your gamestream. To my knowledge, there is a time limit on single continuous gamestreams locked in by NVIDIA, so you will need to occasionally refresh the stream and send your friend another link.

Now to play! Go into "Exhibition", and set your usual options. BE AWARE! You are basically tricking the game into thinking your friend is at the keyboard right next to you, so they will only have access to the robots you yourself have on your install. They will also need to use the controls you have set for the robots, so if you want your friends to be able to actually fight you, you will need to ensure the bot they plan on using uses DIFFERENT controls from the one you plan on using (I tend to set one player to use WASD, and the other player to use arrow keys). If you need to do this, you can go back to the menu and into "Bots HQ" to adjust the controls. Set your robots, start the match and enjoy!

EDIT: I should note, that depending on the distance from client to host, there will likely be input lag for the clients (In testing the worst we were hitting was approx. 0.7 seconds, and this is from Western Canada to Great Britain). Not really any way around this I'm afraid. The only possible solution I can see in a tournament setting is (assuming I can get Moonlight working) to have both combatants connect as "clients", to at least give both combatants input delay.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on February 11, 2017, 03:54:06 PM
Fooled around a bit with Mattiator. With a distance of 6000-ish km (3700mi), the input lag is around 250ms.
(https://gametechmods.com/uploads/images/31263InputLag.gif)
https://youtu.be/KREKlV9Uy54
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on February 11, 2017, 04:36:37 PM
any progress is good progress. thanks a lot for testing this out.

how bad is the rubberbanding?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Tygron on February 11, 2017, 08:31:31 PM
how bad is the rubberbanding?
Should be nonexistant with gamestream actually. Since what you're doing is no real different than watching a Twitch stream (with much less latency of course) and sending control inputs to the computer streaming it what you see will be what is happening on the PC streaming the game. You're limited to the computer itself and the combined network capabilities of the host's connection, the clients connection, and whatever garbage happens in between. So so long as the PC running the game is pretty decent and you both have good enough internet connections it should be fine.


That's cool that someone's testing this out this way. I've never used gamestream like this before but I have used it with my Nvidia Shield. I haven't used it over too great a distance but I can say that I was getting my car worked on one time and with the internet they had I was playing GTA V with no problems at all. And at home i've played Titanfall with it and done just as well as I would have sitting at my computer. There is a tiny bit of input lag that in shooters feel like you weigh a bit (making the Titan portions of Titanfall feel less twitch shootery but a bit more what you'd expect a mech to feel like) but it's all still entirely playable for most games. I wouldn't claim you can be a CS:GO pro with it, but you can still be mildly competitive if you wanna play while taking a dump.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on February 12, 2017, 07:34:06 AM
Apanx, Have you tried this on DSL?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mattiator on February 12, 2017, 09:24:17 AM
Barring lag issues on the host's end from running DSL versus stock, there shouldn't be any change.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on February 12, 2017, 12:05:12 PM
So, we've done a very long distance test and a very short range test.

Anyone in the north/midlands or the south west want to try an online game?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: UberPyro on February 12, 2017, 12:25:55 PM
OK, this is really cool.

So all it really takes is some method of transferring player inputs and of streaming? Are there alternate programs that can be used to send key inputs to other computers? I think discord can screen share (or at least I saw a teaser released for screen share posted at the end of December).

Also if two players want to use the same keys then I think autohotkeys can be used to get around that.

Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Tygron on February 13, 2017, 03:57:02 PM
OK, this is really cool.

So all it really takes is some method of transferring player inputs and of streaming? Are there alternate programs that can be used to send key inputs to other computers? I think discord can screen share (or at least I saw a teaser released for screen share posted at the end of December).

Also if two players want to use the same keys then I think autohotkeys can be used to get around that.

I don't know if there's any software out there that has the low latency that Nvidia's Gamestream has but there could be. But yea that's basically all that's happening. I don't know if there's a way to use the same keybinds though. Depends on how it sends the control data.

Doing this you could probably play other games like you could possibly play emulated split screen games like this. That's a bit off topic but i'm just trying to portray how versatile this is.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Merrick on February 13, 2017, 05:47:50 PM
So, we've done a very long distance test and a very short range test.

Anyone in the north/midlands or the south west want to try an online game?

I'm based in the South West, I'd be up for trying. What do I need to do?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mattiator on February 13, 2017, 06:29:36 PM
Someone needs to set up a game, and then you just have to follow a link.

EDIT: Here's a few videos I've recorded demonstrating fights done using NVIDIA Gamestream. Keep in mind, these fights were done from Western Canada, across the damn Atlantic, when commenting on how badly the bot that isn't me is driving:

Quantos (operated by me) Vs. Surgeon Sparrow (operated by Botomatic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU2Nun7RjMQ

Gale Force Nine (operated by me) Vs. Mermaid Mk4 (operated by Doodle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAiRQQlV14

Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Herpaderp64 on June 02, 2017, 10:51:25 AM
I support this idea, I'd love to watch/be a part of a tournament where the builders drive their own creations, It'd also be fun to notice the different driving styles of different members.
Also, no more "YOU AI'D RONG", I'm kinda tired of getting screwed over by dumbass AI
So, good post. Title is kinda dramatic, though.

the title is a bit clickbaitey but i believe it completely. I guarantee this will open up so many possibilities if it happens.

just don't know how to make it a reality. any suggestions at all would be very welcome. I'm particularly interested if it's possible to host a dedicated ra2 sever for starters

Opened this expecting another sh**post but you raise a great point. If this game had actual, functioning online play I could see myself playing it pretty much every day, and, like you said, it would make previously useless classes of bot viable and encourage innovation in the bot building scene.
that's the thing, it would add a whole other facet to the game which is basically dead.
also i dont sh**post

the problem is if am right, online servers were hosted by gamespy and this game now faces the same struggle star wars battlefront 2 (old) faces. it has no master server due to gamespy shutting them down so in order for us to have proper online play ra2 needs a new master server to host all of the dedicated servers on. (don't ask me how to do this i just know that this is why not how to go about fixing it). basically if a new master server is created and made to work for ra2 all online problems are solved its that simple or at least it sounds simple where as in reality it is a very complex and daunting task. a few people have attempted to create master servers to replace the gamespy one but all are either unfinished or discontinued
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 090901 on June 02, 2017, 10:58:35 AM
gamespy online wasnt good anyways, it was still hella laggy.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Herpaderp64 on June 02, 2017, 11:12:32 AM
gamespy online wasnt good anyways, it was still hella laggy.

Whatever the case was (wasn't around on ra2 back then, only been on it for a year at most although i did play battlefront 2 which used gamespy as well) it was a master server and that is the key, once ra2 has a master server again there will be no need for things like hamachi or gameranger because the game will be able to host its own multiplayer without external support, once that is implemented it would just be a case of refining the game and the new master server to work as one thus eliminating all unnecessary lag and rubber-banding from the game and in theory creating a working stable multiplayer.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Herpaderp64 on June 02, 2017, 11:20:50 AM
also someone PLEASE PIN THIS TOPIC IT IS VERY IMPORTANT  :vista:
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Starcore on June 02, 2017, 03:09:43 PM
Another option that I have not seen mentioned at GTM that could work similar to the NVidia Gamestream as a functional option but would also have the trust issue is TeamViewer. It would allow both on same screen combat and would also require the bots be wired with different keys to avoid conflict (one with WASD and Space for example and the other with Arrow Keys and Delete or similar)

This does face the issue of trust since you are allowing the other player to access your PC. RA2 limits it somewhat by grabbing control of Keyboard and Mouse.

Is easy to set up and has been optimized for low lag and fast video updates. It is also free for personal use.

Can check it out here: https://www.teamviewer.com/en/ (https://www.teamviewer.com/en/)

Optimization Tips: http://lifehacker.com/how-to-get-the-best-experience-from-teamviewer-1585428616 (http://lifehacker.com/how-to-get-the-best-experience-from-teamviewer-1585428616)

I have not personally tested for 2-player RA2 but it seems to have all the necessary features.

Starcore
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on June 02, 2017, 04:27:36 PM
Tried that with Mattinator. I think it worked a little bit worse than Gamestream. On the other hand, having a distance of around 6000km between players isn't optimal for latency.

You could also run RA2 in a VM and screenshare from there to protect yourself.

RA2 net code needs really low latency to work well. LAN, sure. Longer distances, not really.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kill343gs on June 02, 2017, 05:36:46 PM
gamespy online wasnt good anyways, it was still hella laggy.

Whatever the case was (wasn't around on ra2 back then, only been on it for a year at most although i did play battlefront 2 which used gamespy as well) it was a master server and that is the key, once ra2 has a master server again there will be no need for things like hamachi or gameranger because the game will be able to host its own multiplayer without external support, once that is implemented it would just be a case of refining the game and the new master server to work as one thus eliminating all unnecessary lag and rubber-banding from the game and in theory creating a working stable multiplayer.

It is very specifically a netcode issue and not a master server issue, as someone who played RA2 online frequently back in 2006. There was always pretty serious lag even with people relatively close by.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on June 02, 2017, 05:41:01 PM
If anynone wants (and is near croatia. Well anywhere in EU), i will be able to test TeamViewer.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Herpaderp64 on June 04, 2017, 11:26:27 AM
gamespy online wasnt good anyways, it was still hella laggy.

Whatever the case was (wasn't around on ra2 back then, only been on it for a year at most although i did play battlefront 2 which used gamespy as well) it was a master server and that is the key, once ra2 has a master server again there will be no need for things like hamachi or gameranger because the game will be able to host its own multiplayer without external support, once that is implemented it would just be a case of refining the game and the new master server to work as one thus eliminating all unnecessary lag and rubber-banding from the game and in theory creating a working stable multiplayer.

It is very specifically a netcode issue and not a master server issue, as someone who played RA2 online frequently back in 2006. There was always pretty serious lag even with people relatively close by.

i see, although as i said i think the first step is to get ra2's multiplayer up and running in way so it needs no external support, the lag is just a side effect of poor programming and im sure there are people here that are a lot smarter than i am who can fix it lol, and if they do attempt it good luck to them. we will all be grateful if we can all drive our bots around and kick the living sh*t out of each other without ai tournaments. just think we will actually see tactics involved in the fights instead of 2-4 bots just mindlessly ramming each other until one just stops due to bad ai coding or something.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: frezal on June 28, 2017, 02:57:43 AM
I used to love playing RA2 online! I would say that I loved playing RA1 online, but I had dial-up back then, so I could rarely get a game to actually work.


Best of luck to everyone working on a solution to this problem. Actually having to control your bot adds a whole other level of skill to the game.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Badnik96 on January 16, 2018, 03:31:06 AM
bump

found this program for ra2 online, basically nvidia gamestream but you don't need nvidia for it
https://parsecgaming.com/

you still need to have different controls for each bot etc but its still a step forward
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 16, 2018, 01:16:42 PM
good find. I'll test it out soon. I'm glad people are still trying to find ways around the ra2 online limitations, I haven't given up hope yet.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 17, 2018, 03:12:04 PM
good find. I'll test it out soon. I'm glad people are still trying to find ways around the ra2 online limitations, I haven't given up hope yet.
Do it on friday? Maybe test all metas?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on January 17, 2018, 04:32:07 PM
This seems to work well enough.
Had a 4-way with SM, 8bean and Tashic with my retarded test bots.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 17, 2018, 05:09:27 PM
great if it works. how was lag for the non-hosts?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Jaydee99 on January 17, 2018, 05:30:32 PM
This does sound great, I've never played an online match unfortunately.
But if it would be used for online tournaments, how would we get around the time zone difference between users?
Just a small question I thought of bringing up lol
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Badnik96 on January 17, 2018, 06:06:21 PM
its not hard to arrange a time where both parties can fight
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Jaydee99 on January 17, 2018, 06:18:56 PM
It won't be too easy though, I guess it is possible though
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 17, 2018, 10:45:37 PM
But don't you have to give your IP
? You can get hacked by That.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 8bean on January 17, 2018, 11:23:40 PM
(bear in mind I have the shoddiest internet on the planet) I had virtually no input lag most of the time but at the worst it was about half a second.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on January 18, 2018, 06:19:24 AM
Well- this is amazing.

Apanx hosting in Sweden and then there's me from England.

If there was lag, I couldn't tell it was there.

Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: WeN on January 18, 2018, 06:21:38 AM
also android version didn't even had a touch control wtf
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 18, 2018, 02:57:16 PM
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just played some matches with S_M. It was by far the best online experience I've ever had in RA2, and it was across the dang atlantic. Very little lag all things considered.
I need to play someone in the US, even with our match US-UK it wasn't too bad, and I imagine if I fight someone nearby the lag might be almost unnoticable. I have very high hopes that an actual organized tournament with actual people driving the bots could take place very soon. I'd be totally down to host.

This is a huge deal, people.
There is new hope for this game. I haven't been this excited about RA2 in years.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Lightning S. on January 18, 2018, 06:18:30 PM
awesome to hear about this; downloading it now.

i kinda think we should have a thread made and pinned in the online battles section so anyone who wants to play an online match can just post there. of course that's far from the only option, it's just an idea
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: yugitom on January 18, 2018, 06:24:58 PM
After being bullied by RoboBowler and Mouldy, I have come to the conclusion that online RA2 is sh**. Parsec is great. Had a really fun time, just now. Had a mini-tournament, too, which I won  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Sage on January 18, 2018, 06:26:46 PM
online RA2 means butt isn't good anymore :(
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 18, 2018, 06:52:19 PM
online RA2 means butt isn't good anymore :(

You gotta bob and weave.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: UberPyro on January 18, 2018, 08:01:26 PM
Can anyone test/confirm/deny (probably deny) if autohotkeys works on the user's end with parsec, that way both players can use the same button setup? How directly does parsec take the inputs?

Even if ahk does work, there's got to be some way to modify or transform the keyboard outputs.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 18, 2018, 09:14:46 PM
online RA2 means butt isn't good anymore :(

just use your driving skills sage
just use your driving skills sage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzIaqCZWymw)
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: qwertythe300th on January 18, 2018, 11:34:36 PM
Just skimmed through the thread, These developments are looking phenomenal  :laughing

If we get online tournaments count me in
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Scrap Daddy on January 18, 2018, 11:50:20 PM
let's get the online boiz back in action.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 09090901 on January 19, 2018, 01:07:01 AM
You guys should try the DSL Obstacle Course. probably one of the few things in the world that's worse than retooled

Also, make sure to play with your setting if you're gonna be hosting
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mystic2000 on January 19, 2018, 01:09:38 AM
Online in RA2 that isn't sh** you say ? i suppose sign me up, at least now i can actually start using servos and linear actuators for some systems now that it's not absolutely required to have a dumbass AI being in the capacity to drive the damn thing
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on January 19, 2018, 03:12:09 AM
Can anyone test/confirm/deny (probably deny) if autohotkeys works on the user's end with parsec, that way both players can use the same button setup? How directly does parsec take the inputs?

Even if ahk does work, there's got to be some way to modify or transform the keyboard outputs.

There is a mode to share hotkeys with users. I've not tried it out yet so I'm not too sure how it works.

You guys should try the DSL Obstacle Course. probably one of the few things in the world that's worse than retooled

Also, make sure to play with your setting if you're gonna be hosting

We tried this yesterday. It's a mess if you try and use all 4 people.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: apanx on January 19, 2018, 03:15:50 AM
Parsecs seem to hook before AHK, so AHK doesn't seem to work.

Using controller simplifies 4-ways, ran WASD, IJKL, arrows + controller.
Have to try multiple controllers sometime
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Sage on January 19, 2018, 04:34:28 PM
let's get the online boiz back in action.

hop on AIM in a bit
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 19, 2018, 04:36:06 PM
Parsecs seem to hook before AHK, so AHK doesn't seem to work.

Using controller simplifies 4-ways, ran WASD, IJKL, arrows + controller.
Have to try multiple controllers sometime
I dont see that possible... They will prolly share the x/y ans xz/yz axis
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 19, 2018, 06:23:30 PM
let's get the online boiz back in action.

hop on AIM in a bit


I am really sorry, but AIM was shut down, i really like it and wanted it to continue.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Dreamcast on January 19, 2018, 06:26:26 PM
let's get the online boiz back in action.

hop on AIM in a bit


I am really sorry, but AIM was shut down, i really like it and wanted it to continue.

thatsthejoke.avi
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on January 20, 2018, 12:20:00 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr7lKt44TIQ
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kill343gs on January 20, 2018, 02:12:00 PM
Well this looks pretty damn proper
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: TheRoboteer on January 20, 2018, 10:47:01 PM
Turns out there's also an android APK available of parsec, which basically means that you don't even need to be on your computer to join multiplayer games. You'll need to connect a keyboard to your phone somehow (I had an OTG adapter laying around), but a bluetooth one should work too. Tested it by connecting to my own laptop and while there were some stutters and the stream quality wasn't great, the actual input lag was minimal despite my non-stellar internet, and the game itself was very much playable.

Probably not as major as the other uses of the software but I thought this was another pretty damn cool feature to it.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Hoppin on January 22, 2018, 02:02:01 PM
Over at AHOL a few of us decided to give this a go. We made some ridiculous bots and did some melees.
Barry Chuckle Jr (Overhead tri-bar spinner) - Myself
gayboy - (Mech vert) - TheRoboteer
CPU Black heart - (10wd NPC Fast rammer) - Sev
Spyder (Moros vert) - Badwolf
Qwe - Thwack bot - EvilToaster.

Here's a few matches we had.
https://youtu.be/3nmwv7m9fmU

Other things that happened, TR and I decided to fight each other with some AW partners. We both lost to them AWs. Bocuma 3 got split in half.
This is the most fun I've had playing Ra2. I hope it continues.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: yugitom on January 23, 2018, 05:40:40 AM
(https://i.gyazo.com/95fa24f1134c726968ee15aa83b9eff1.png)
this makes me sad
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Hoppin on January 23, 2018, 08:51:55 AM
(https://i.gyazo.com/95fa24f1134c726968ee15aa83b9eff1.png)
this makes me sad

Lmao blame host
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: yugitom on January 23, 2018, 11:35:52 AM
I just noticed that the only taskbar'd browser is IE or Edge, too. Don't suppose you could go ahead and kill whoever the host was?

*Edit:* And he still has that windows store thing pinned to his taskbar. Not to mention he was playing RA2 windowed, in the first place. I shouldn't have been able to see this mess. I feel ill.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on January 23, 2018, 11:39:47 AM
I just noticed that the only taskbar'd browser is IE or Edge, too. Don't suppose you could go ahead and kill whoever the host was?

*Edit:* And he still has that windows store thing pinned to his taskbar. Not to mention he was playing RA2 windowed, in the first place. I shouldn't have been able to see this mess. I feel ill.
Haha not the only one!
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on January 23, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
I just noticed that the only taskbar'd browser is IE or Edge, too. Don't suppose you could go ahead and kill whoever the host was?

*Edit:* And he still has that windows store thing pinned to his taskbar. Not to mention he was playing RA2 windowed, in the first place. I shouldn't have been able to see this mess. I feel ill.
in his defense ra2 seems to crash a lot more in fullscreen when hosting with parsec.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: TheRoboteer on January 23, 2018, 03:35:56 PM
I just noticed that the only taskbar'd browser is IE or Edge, too. Don't suppose you could go ahead and kill whoever the host was?

*Edit:* And he still has that windows store thing pinned to his taskbar. Not to mention he was playing RA2 windowed, in the first place. I shouldn't have been able to see this mess. I feel ill.
in his defense ra2 seems to crash a lot more in fullscreen when hosting with parsec.
Believe me, it was crashing enough as it was. Basically every fight crashed at least once on loading.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on January 23, 2018, 03:43:28 PM
That's weird. We never had that problem when we did the tournament.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: TheRoboteer on January 23, 2018, 03:46:40 PM
That's weird. We never had that problem when we did the tournament.
IDK if it was an issue with the host's PC or something with parsec. I'm tentatively assuming the former but IDK
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 09090901 on January 24, 2018, 04:35:05 AM
I'm being 100% serious when I say that RA1 multi-player is actually not that bad. you guys should try it some day
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Asbestosstar on January 25, 2018, 10:37:31 AM
I  SHould. But what about RA3
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: [cringey name goes here] on January 30, 2018, 03:52:21 PM
So right now, Parsec is the most relialbe?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on January 30, 2018, 04:01:08 PM
So right now, Parsec is the most relialbe?

Yes, as far as we know.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: [cringey name goes here] on January 31, 2018, 05:10:01 AM
Cool. Just downloaded it now.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 09090901 on February 01, 2018, 04:02:34 PM
https://youtu.be/fOSbNNkRgj8

new update for those still interested
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: yugitom on February 02, 2018, 03:43:20 AM
That's awesome. Definitely would love to see how a tournament would go down, now.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mystic2000 on May 09, 2018, 02:04:40 AM
for something that was supposed to save RA2 this died rather quickly, it is a rather sad observation because online would indeed make this game considerably more interesting
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Olister92 on May 09, 2018, 06:08:59 AM
I think it just comes down to time zones really and people not being able to commit to an exact time with IRL things going on, at least that what the only problem for me is. It is a shame as this is something I wanted to work too
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Ra2Winner999 on May 09, 2018, 08:58:15 AM
I think it just comes down to time zones really and people not being able to commit to an exact time with IRL things going on, at least that what the only problem for me is. It is a shame as this is something I wanted to work too

Yup.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mystic2000 on May 09, 2018, 06:42:41 PM
I think it just comes down to time zones really and people not being able to commit to an exact time with IRL things going on, at least that what the only problem for me is. It is a shame as this is something I wanted to work too

doesn't stop the Garry's Wars server tho, on a Saturday you can easily enough deal with a small scale tournament
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on May 10, 2018, 03:17:11 AM
I think it just comes down to time zones really and people not being able to commit to an exact time with IRL things going on, at least that what the only problem for me is. It is a shame as this is something I wanted to work too

doesn't stop the Garry's Wars server tho, on a Saturday you can easily enough deal with a small scale tournament

^

The reason why this isn't catching on is because not enough people are even trying it. I would love to be at the forefront of this and offer tournements weekly but I'm still not ready to upgrade to Windows 10.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Hoppin on May 10, 2018, 04:22:19 AM
personally I just think most of gtm are more content with regular Ra2, with ai battles and for me personally, the set up time for parsec isnt worth the consistant usage. Id love to use it more, but I just straight up cba with the setup for it.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 09090901 on May 10, 2018, 04:42:53 AM
personally I just think most of gtm are more content with regular Ra2, with ai battles and for me personally, the set up time for parsec isnt worth the consistant usage. Id love to use it more, but I just straight up cba with the setup for it.
this tbqhfam

Also, I don't want to be a dick, but I think a decent amount of members lack the required PC specs/internet speed to host somewhat playable games.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Olister92 on May 10, 2018, 06:33:17 AM
Also, I don't want to be a dick, but I think a decent amount of members lack the required PC specs/internet speed to host somewhat playable games.

^ this isn't being a dick it's true man, I just couldn't justify spending money on a high spec PC just to play RA2 which is basically all I use my laptop for when I have IRL stuff to pay for too. Weekend slots would be ideal to do stuff like this for the majority of people but weekends are full unfortunately this might be the same for others too, damn IRL stuff again!
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Billy5545 on May 11, 2018, 07:36:41 AM
I support this. I thought tournaments will be done by Humans, only for me to learn that's it's AI based. It will be more interesting to drive your own robot and fight yourself, rather than watching. Also, as said by others, it will allow more strategy. We can have something like Bigger Brother vs Hypno-Disc, with human players driving a badly battered, but still functional robot drive-wise, in a way that allows them to push opponents to hazards to destroy or eliminate them from there.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: kix on May 11, 2018, 02:13:03 PM
Tbh ill try do be more actuve with this with my newer rig when i finally buy it (thank god i work now)
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on September 24, 2018, 07:25:23 PM
hey again. I claimed a while ago that online play in ra2 would extend the life of the game to the extreme, and i stand by that statement.
now we have proof. I’ve so far hosted 2 Centauris, online tournaments, that were bigger successes than I could have hoped. the second was even better than the first, and I thought the first was amazing. i can't tell you how many times i heard stuff like
Can’t really look at AI matches the same anymore.
from centauri competitors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1ziuCwO9M0

if you haven't yet, watch it. please. i don’t care that it was me who hosted it. I would say the same if someone else hosts one. you have to watch it to see how pitiful AI is in comparison.
I’m saying this cause most people havent. The views on YT are very low. I understand. the mindset of most tournaments is to only watch your own fights, and theres barely a point in watching anyway cause the ai is so braindead and predictable. Just read summaries of the fights in all honesty.
This is 100% NOT the case with pvp matches. Any fight in either Centauris blow any AI fight out of the water. You do not have to be a competitor to enjoy a fight. Some players are gooood drivers, incredible to watch, and it’s possible to win with extremely unorthodox designs. A clamp won C1, for crying out loud. 2 push bots with 0 and minimal weapons respectively got 3rd and 2nd in C2. When do you see that with AI? you don’t. we need pvp to encourage building innovation. it’s so much fun and almost everyone is missing out! makes me so sad. it doesnt have to be like this.

We need people to watch these matches, and we need people to host more online tournaments. It is not much of a commitment. All the C2 matches were filmed in 2 days. was even less of a commitment for the competitors. i've hosted 5 AI tournaments before and centauri was honestly easier and way more fun to do. pretty much every 'issue' mentioned above was completely disproved with the centauris.
We need pvp for the game, people. Please. i'm getting tired of being one of the only ones trying to save this game, especially when it is so simple to fix.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Nightraven Shade on September 24, 2018, 09:04:53 PM
i used a laptop made around 5 years ago with nothing changed in it and built in graphics card and played on it perfectly fine with no lag so most machines should be able to play on it and i expect half the machines in GTM can probably host on it so its worth looking at and can easily enough make it a weekly or even every 2 week thing for someone to host if enough are willing to try
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Meganerdbomb on September 25, 2018, 12:40:01 AM
So I've been out of the loop for a while. What are ya'll using to host these live matches?
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Reier on September 25, 2018, 12:53:11 AM
So I've been out of the loop for a while. What are ya'll using to host these live matches?
it's a program called parsec. it's basically a screen sharing software that people can use to connect to a host. very minimal lag, most people said they could barely notice they weren't playing on their own pc

i used a laptop made around 5 years ago with nothing changed in it and built in graphics card and played on it perfectly fine with no lag so most machines should be able to play on it and i expect half the machines in GTM can probably host on it so its worth looking at and can easily enough make it a weekly or even every 2 week thing for someone to host if enough are willing to try
what he said. almost no one had any major problems when playing in the centauris, and i know that several people's pcs aren't that good by any stretch. hosting may be a different story but I have a solid middle of the road pc with middle of the road upload speed and it worked without any problems really. people just need to give it a shot. don't really know why people are so terrified of getting out of their comfort zone when it's basically a straight upgrade
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Billy5545 on September 25, 2018, 02:25:52 AM
So I've been out of the loop for a while. What are ya'll using to host these live matches?
it's a program called parsec. it's basically a screen sharing software that people can use to connect to a host. very minimal lag, most people said they could barely notice they weren't playing on their own pc

i used a laptop made around 5 years ago with nothing changed in it and built in graphics card and played on it perfectly fine with no lag so most machines should be able to play on it and i expect half the machines in GTM can probably host on it so its worth looking at and can easily enough make it a weekly or even every 2 week thing for someone to host if enough are willing to try
what he said. almost no one had any major problems when playing in the centauris, and i know that several people's pcs aren't that good by any stretch. hosting may be a different story but I have a solid middle of the road pc with middle of the road upload speed and it worked without any problems really. people just need to give it a shot. don't really know why people are so terrified of getting out of their comfort zone when it's basically a straight upgrade
I think for the PC part, it's either they don't want to spend money maybe, or for younger users, not allowed to buy a new one as long as the old one is still useable. Also, i do wish there are more DSL online tourneys, particularly IRL. In addition, I do want to do PvP, because it's fun, but unfortunately can't, because I live in SE Asia, where there are only three other active users (Wen, Neon, moz) and they seem to don't know how to Parsec, or don't have enough Internet speed for it
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Jonzu95 on September 25, 2018, 10:20:58 AM
I think Reier has a solid point in here. Considering that all these 10 years I've been part of GTM, Online playing was entirely ignored. I could imagine DSL-IRL being even more fun to play online!

My arms are open for RA2 online and I personally want to give it a try.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: UberPyro on September 25, 2018, 12:48:28 PM
I think Reier has a solid point in here. Considering that all these 10 years I've been part of GTM, Online playing was entirely ignored. I could imagine DSL-IRL being even more fun to play online!

My arms are open for RA2 online and I personally want to give it a try.

I know that the community is mostly oriented around IRL right now and that's perfectly fine. Playing online matches with IRL bots might be kind of awkward though (or not as much fun) simply because the balance between the robots aren't good. Like if you have a robot with a great aesthetic but poor performance, having to control it against opponents with stronger robots and lose could be frustrating. The point of IRL is to have lots of battles with good looks, which comes from bot realism more than driving realism. Driving brings a lot more to a competitive meta, like IF-standard, because now there's huge pressure to drive well in order to win, your driving skills matter, and there can be actual in-battle strategy (like in round 2 of the video). That's why Reier chose IF for these tournaments. If winning is your goal, you might feel that controlling IRL robots is like having a boxing match underwater. You might find after some IRL games you wished your bot was stronger/faster/less awkward/more destructive, and then try out building in IF or standard. It's also worth stating that IRL tournaments have to be made much smaller to fit in an online format. But no one has tried an online IRL tournament and IRL seems to be what people want to do these days. It's kind of dumb to avoid something that we haven't tried yet so take this post more as a warning than as truth. Obviously I'm stuck up the IF camp (and for reasons) but if someone wants to make an IRL tournament it would be interesting to see how it looks in the end.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Nightraven Shade on September 25, 2018, 01:22:24 PM
I think Reier has a solid point in here. Considering that all these 10 years I've been part of GTM, Online playing was entirely ignored. I could imagine DSL-IRL being even more fun to play online!

My arms are open for RA2 online and I personally want to give it a try.

I know that the community is mostly oriented around IRL right now and that's perfectly fine. Playing online matches with IRL bots might be kind of awkward though (or not as much fun) simply because the balance between the robots aren't good. Like if you have a robot with a great aesthetic but poor performance, having to control it against opponents with stronger robots and lose could be frustrating. The point of IRL is to have lots of battles with good looks, which comes from bot realism more than driving realism. Driving brings a lot more to a competitive meta, like IF-standard, because now there's huge pressure to drive well in order to win, your driving skills matter, and there can be actual in-battle strategy (like in round 2 of the video). That's why Reier chose IF for these tournaments. If winning is your goal, you might feel that controlling IRL robots is like having a boxing match underwater. You might find after some IRL games you wished your bot was stronger/faster/less awkward/more destructive, and then try out building in IF or standard. It's also worth stating that IRL tournaments have to be made much smaller to fit in an online format. But no one has tried an online IRL tournament and IRL seems to be what people want to do these days. It's kind of dumb to avoid something that we haven't tried yet so take this post more as a warning than as truth. Obviously I'm stuck up the IF camp (and for reasons) but if someone wants to make an IRL tournament it would be interesting to see how it looks in the end.

this i agree with IRL is a great meta for AI as you can build for looks while still being effective due to way AI works with driving skill a factor however having a very nice looking vert or undercutter wont make a differance if a simple pushbot can out push you into a pit or hazard. The other issue with IRL is with the extenderbots so many bits flying off will no doubt cause some lag and most people prefer to build them for the IRL meta again for looks, so while you can use that meta it will have to be differant from the AI IRL meta so you might aswell just use dsl meta in end anyway and for that in PvP IF is better due to added HP of parts so one hit wont end the match. I highly recommend though that if someone wishes to try IRL then just go for it and see what happens and adjust rules/meta as needed, it could be a great chance for a new PvP IRL meta ruleset.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: TheRoboteer on September 25, 2018, 02:10:06 PM
The whole IRL PvP thing is a bit of a double edged sword really. I totally get all the arguments about IRL possibly not being suited to PvP gameplay, and I also get that some folks just don't like IRL as a whole, but at the same time I think if you really want to get PvP RA2 to take off, at least trying an IRL online tournament might be a 'necessary evil' so to speak. On the one hand by actually trying it we'll know for sure if IRL does or does not work in a PvP setting, and also, I don't think it's any secret that IRL is the most popular meta right now, especially with people who don't frequent GTM (Pretty much the only tournaments that I've seen draw significant non-GTM attention have been IRL tourneys). I'm not gonna get into the whole debate on why that is but if you want to draw people in and get people playing online RA2, then IRL may be the way to go. That said the PvP matches that have been done in IF so far have been undeniably great to watch so it's swings and roundabouts really. I think it's worth a shot just to work out whether or not IRL and Online are compatible or not.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Nightraven Shade on September 25, 2018, 03:01:15 PM
The whole IRL PvP thing is a bit of a double edged sword really. I totally get all the arguments about IRL possibly not being suited to PvP gameplay, and I also get that some folks just don't like IRL as a whole, but at the same time I think if you really want to get PvP RA2 to take off, at least trying an IRL online tournament might be a 'necessary evil' so to speak. On the one hand by actually trying it we'll know for sure if IRL does or does not work in a PvP setting, and also, I don't think it's any secret that IRL is the most popular meta right now, especially with people who don't frequent GTM (Pretty much the only tournaments that I've seen draw significant non-GTM attention have been IRL tourneys). I'm not gonna get into the whole debate on why that is but if you want to draw people in and get people playing online RA2, then IRL may be the way to go. That said the PvP matches that have been done in IF so far have been undeniably great to watch so it's swings and roundabouts really. I think it's worth a shot just to work out whether or not IRL and Online are compatible or not.

100% agree with this!!! try irl meta and see how goes, i think worse case an irl PvP meta ruleset can be made (which would only be extenderbots and clusterbots banned off top my head)
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Thrackerzod on September 25, 2018, 03:26:40 PM
Seems to me that IRL would be better PvP than AI, since there's the chance for like a clamp or something to actually function as intended.  But then, I've never been big into IRL
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 090901 on September 25, 2018, 03:54:34 PM
i've done irl online before with massimo like 3 years ago and it was really fun to do, mainly since its probably the closet thing you can get to actually robotic combat simulation.

Playing online matches with IRL bots might be kind of awkward though (or not as much fun) simply because the balance between the robots aren't good. Like if you have a robot with a great aesthetic but poor performance, having to control it against opponents with stronger robots and lose could be frustrating.
i dont see how having a better chance than in an AI battle against a stronger bot and being able to pull off some sweet upset victories would be frustrating. right now in current AI irl tournies theres so many dumb losses caused by AI thats i cant possible think of how pvp would be more frustrating aside from the fact you can't blame the AI anymore for your losses lol.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 09090901 on September 25, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
tbh I think that PVP would make IRL much more fair considering that human driving makes IRL more than just who decided to go more """competitive IRL"""
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: superbomb122 on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
From personal experience, I've seen stupid moments with AI completely screw over the bot that was winning the fight. The flaws in horizontal spinner and flipper AI are especially glaring, and I think that every tournament, IRL or standard, would have better fights and strategy with online tournaments. A human can take evasive action and exploit armor weaknesses better than any AI, and if we want to get the full experience, we might as well get the experience of using our bots too.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Nightraven Shade on September 25, 2018, 04:07:02 PM
tbh I think that PVP would make IRL much more fair considering the human driving makes IRL more than just who decided to go more """competitive IRL"""

IRL could be more then big disk or gutrippers with human driving you will have the trade off of weapon or drive as i would hope a human would try to avoid aiming for the big weapon on the front which would make control bots and overheads more viable. For anyone that hasnt watched the online PvP a pushbot actually did well without a single weapon
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: [cringey name goes here] on September 25, 2018, 04:18:02 PM
I know this has been said 1 million times over again, but an IRL Parsec tournament would be a nice test to see how far we can go with this new technology. I would participate 100%, but with parsec being limited to continents, and differentiating schedules, it would be hard to manage something if this caliber to the same degree these new, huge IRL tournaments have, but hey, I'm down to try it.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Nightraven Shade on September 25, 2018, 04:30:02 PM
I know this has been said 1 million times over again, but an IRL Parsec tournament would be a nice test to see how far we can go with this new technology. I would participate 100%, but with parsec being limited to continents, and differentiating schedules, it would be hard to manage something if this caliber to the same degree these new, huge IRL tournaments have, but hey, I'm down to try it.

i wouldnt say try to do it on as big a scale and AI tournaments are still good for that but even having 8 man tournaments in each geographical area would add a spark to the game and encourage some creative builds and in most cases they can be completed over a weekend or even in one night
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: 09090901 on September 25, 2018, 05:36:39 PM
I don't even think intercontinental would be that bad unless someone has dial-up tier internet

like I've hosted games with apanx and a few bongs and they said it was playable. hell, even kix said it was pretty good and I'm pretty sure he was using his phone as a wireless hot-spot
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Mouldy on September 27, 2018, 06:25:57 AM
Again, it's not a problem. We've hosted intercontinental games and it has worked fine.

It's just no one cares about hosting a tournament. I'd host tons but I've got Windows 7 and I'm not about to upgrade just because someone with Windows 10 can't be bothered to host one damn tourney.

If you care about the future of this game and already have Windows 10, host a tournament, set a time and I'll be there.

Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Billy5545 on October 21, 2018, 06:02:38 AM
Not made by me, but very important for DSL-IRL RA2 Parsec tourney. The head of the Roblox robot combat server, Sevalent, decided to start an IRL RA2 Parsec tourney. Since he is too lazy here, I will drop the link instead with authorization from him:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UByFnYgEWN4
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: TheRoboteer on October 21, 2018, 08:24:34 AM
Not made by me, but very important for DSL-IRL RA2 Parsec tourney. The head of the Roblox robot combat server, Sevalent, decided to start an IRL RA2 Parsec tourney. Since he is too lazy here, I will drop the link instead with authorization from him:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UByFnYgEWN4
Was a really fun tournament. Surprisingly little crashing and the fights were excellent for the most part. Definitely better than the fights you see out of the AI pretty much across the board. Will certainly be looking forward to future runs of it as well as seeing how the PvP meta for IRL develops.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: superbomb122 on October 21, 2018, 11:52:09 AM
Yeah. Even though I couldn't compete in the main tourney, the testing fights beforehand were some of my favorite moments in almost two years of playing the game.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Billy5545 on November 06, 2018, 01:48:42 AM
I wish other people are allowed to make a separate thread for PWS so it will get more attention, we can post more things like opinions and comments on fights there, and I won't have to use this thread as PWS vid dumping ground, as while the host, Sevalent, is here as Sevalent the Fox, he doesn't use GTM.

Anyway, the second installment of the first ever DSL-IRL Parsec tourney by Sevalent is here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yw70kPcDX1s&
Title: Re: IMPORTANT: this will save RA2
Post by: Hoppin on November 06, 2018, 07:01:22 AM
PWS2 was an even better experience than the first. Thanks to everyone who sent bots or drove, it was super fun