Author Topic: ghetto testing weapons  (Read 422 times)

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
ghetto testing weapons
« on: July 12, 2019, 03:09:15 AM »
no fancy intros or paragraphs since people hate reading and nobody uses the forums anymore

did some testing with typhoons and ripping teeth on average damage and weapon to weapon. obviously don't be a zoomer and take this as the holy gospel without your own tests

here's the test bots. they both use a double mag, and i dropped the teeth count down to 2 for the average damage tests, the weapon to weapon fights were with 4 teeth

first vs a chassis 10 hits were done and i took the first hit recorded

now vs a panel and again 10 hits

first off, keep in mind that DP is not an actual stat in the txt file. it's an estimation of the combined damage potential of piercing and concussion. for reference, typhoon teeth have 3.5c and 1.75p, and ripping teeth have 2.16c and 2.52p

so they're very close. ripping teeth have a very small edge vs the chassis, and typhoons hold a small edge vs a panel. both are close enough that i would consider them withing margin of error. of course, a larger sample size would with more variables would be better, but i don't have all day to play this game all day like some of you guys do so moving on.

now onto weapon vs weapon
typhoons completely btfo ripping teeth despite technically having lower dp and hp. i had a feeling this would happen looking at the stats (concussion beats piercing), and if youve ever played stock/2.1 you probably could too (aka maces vs irons).

next i wanted to see if the hitbox/normals were a cause of the results, or if it was mainly the differences in p/c. to test this, i gave the ripping teeth 3.5c and 1.75p, the same dp values as typhoons (hp was left unchanged at 4400)

better, but still not what i would call equal. the stat swap definitely helps despite technically now having lower dp, but i do feel that the normals/hitbox is hurting them compared to a typhoon

conclusions: obviously these tests aren't concrete and absolute, and there are more variables and setups to be had, but i would say that ripping teeth are not a straight up upgrade from typhoons. awkward shape, and significantly worse weapon to weapon performance. that being said, people who think that they're shifting the meta by banning typhoons and then allowing ripping teeth are straight zooming

again, you're own experience and testing might be different than mine. that's cool, good for you

also i tested the mech disk, and i can say with 100% confidence that anyone who says that it's op should be ignored and called a zoomer
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 07:22:57 PM by geese »
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline kix

  • Hey boss!
  • *
  • Posts: 2573
  • Rep: 11
  • We need my rep to go higher
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Discord: Username#8552
Re: ghetto testing: large typhoons vs ripping teeth
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2019, 03:43:01 AM »
Honestly mech ban is a meme in tournaments
H
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Offline Hoppin

  • E-Girl
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
  • Rep: 11
  • Sket - 1000% more toxic than TheRoboteerm
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Discord: Hoppin#0013
Re: ghetto testing: large typhoons vs ripping teeth
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2019, 05:53:02 AM »
Very cool
Things I did & done

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing: piericng vs concussion
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2019, 04:31:41 AM »
alright so i tried to play around with piercing and concussion

in 2.2, the dp formula is DP=(200*p)+(100*c). in other words, piercing is weighted twice as much as concussion in dp calculations. for example, a typhoon tooth with 3.5 piercing technically has the same dp as a typhoon tooth with 7 concussion. i wanted to see how true this was since there's a few older posts from 123 and click explaining the differences and they kind of go against my own experiences but w/e

if anyone remembers this https://gametechmods.com/forums/discussion/mythbusters-ra2-edition/msg28187/#msg28187
then its kind of like that ye but with a spinner and the dp formula is slightly different

for testing i used two different typhoon teeth. both technically have 700 dp, but one has 3.5 piercing, and the other has 7 concussion. both have their opposite values set to 0 as iirc leaving them blank defaults to 1

same thing like the above, spinning into a chassis. i only did 5 runs as it was pretty obvious early on
Code: [Select]
concussion vs piercing @700dp 3.5p/7c

piercing
1269
1160
1211
1183
1129

concussion
2131
2340
2368
2250
2100


vid with 3 extra runs. use the status indicators for the points, and you're gonna wanna pause it frequently and run it in full screen.

uh yeah pretty big difference considering they both technically have the same dp in 2.2

here's the weapon to weapon results

concussion wins every single time

according to 123 and click, concussion is boosted by the movement of your bot while piercing is boosted by axle speed. going by this, in hs vs hs fights, piercing should technically beat concussion when both values are equal, and should be very similar with the current formula. i guess this result goes against their findings but what do i know :shrug:

regardless, i think it's worth considering that the DP=(200*p)+(100*c) formula might need some changing for the current irl build style. i don't know if click took flails into consideration or what, but rn piercing seems overinflated in the calculation, and it results in weapons with piercing potentially having less actual damage potential than other weapons that are more concussion based

I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing: large typhoons vs ripping teeth
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2019, 04:14:46 PM »
did some more testing, and the dp formula seems correct in regards to burst motors.


concussion deals roughly equal damage with twice the value of piercing when used on a burst

Code: [Select]
bursts piercing vs concussion 5c vs 2.5p

concussion

727
514
654
508
507
653
526
520
630
673

piercing
570
561
656
601
485
686
754
670
474
863
obviously a larger sample size would be better, but this lines up with what click found in his old test (which iirc, is how the dp formula came to be)

tldr: if your don't understand any of is, just know that components that have most of their dp in concussion are better than weapons that are more piercing based. if you plan on using them on burst motors, then they're essentially equal

i wish we still had smart people like trov, click, and 123
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 06:08:26 AM by geese »
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline kix

  • Hey boss!
  • *
  • Posts: 2573
  • Rep: 11
  • We need my rep to go higher
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Discord: Username#8552
Re: ghetto testing: large typhoons vs ripping teeth
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2019, 04:41:44 PM »
for zoomers who really cant understand this: tifooon toof gud, gudder then ripeng toof and nitemere. dp no akurate for most fites, it mayb nd
Zommers may not understand this so lemme help
Typhoons tooth good
Everything bad
H
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing: final thoughts
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2019, 07:21:18 PM »
so some final thoughts. again nothing listed here is 100%, some of my results go against what 123 and clickbeetle found

- the base dp formula should probably be changed to better reflect the current irl meta. in dsl-s it made more sense as piercing was the dominate choice with how powerful popups and flails were (btw, i didn't post it, but concussion has a near x4 advantage when in momentum with a rammer).

- from what i can tell, concussion and piercing behave differently when placed on a burst, spin motor, and ram, so finding a middle ground is going to be extremely difficult. i would consider moving all but a handful of weapons over to pure concussion. this way you won't have 2 weapons with equal dp, but differing concussion/piercing resulting in inaccurate results (typhoons vs ripping teeth). the majority of weapons have a p/c mix, very few are pure p/c

- i suggest that weapons such as the axe heads and pole spikes be swapped over to pure piercing as they are almost only used as over head hammer weapons in IRL, and as such, better suited to piercing especially with a re-done dp formula. shifting them over to pure piercing also should discourage their use on other bot types (putting gothic axes on an hs or sns). technically yes, you could use them on flails, however i like to think the average host would reject that

- unrelated, but the multiplier for 1.5 normals should probably be reduced. think we can all agree on this

- the weight to efficiency curve is mostly fine

- shape/size/general usability should probably be taken into consideration, however this would probably be way to convoluted

- some weapons are going to suck regardless due to their normals/collison mesh. realistically the majority of pre-2.2 weapons could use their collision meshes rebuilt

- mech disks still are not op

i would go on, but theres nobody really around nowadays to to discuss this with so  heck
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 08:02:02 PM by geese »
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline Hoppin

  • E-Girl
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
  • Rep: 11
  • Sket - 1000% more toxic than TheRoboteerm
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
  • Discord: Hoppin#0013
Re: ghetto testing: final thoughts
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 07:36:22 PM »

- mech disks still are not op


Quit lying to the people.


On a serious note, this is a great investigation. Hopefully all the zoomers that make tournaments will read this. Shoutout typhoon bad
Things I did & done

Offline TheRoboteer

  • Certified 100% Toxic
  • *
  • Posts: 1315
  • Rep: 9
  • "I HATE SEBASTIAN COE!"
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 07:37:55 PM »
I hope people read this. I certainly learned some sh** and hopefully it can at least guide people's hand when they decide tournament rules, or some woke individual decides to rebalance DSL again
Notable Guffs That I Dun Gone And Did:
The Beginner's Guide to IRL:
https://gametechmods.com/forums/tutorials-and-tips/irl-a-beginner's-guide

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 02:34:31 AM »
Edit: this info isn't correct

alright so update:

my previous tests had concussion significantly out damaging piercing on a chassis with steel 10. i've ran some more tests, and while technically the above results are true, there is something i've just discovered

i'm really not sure what to make of this. according to my findings, concussion damage scales with the hp of the chassis being hit. this would explain why the concussion typhoon from the previous test was so much stronger than the piercing one (i was using a steel 10 chassis for testing). i'm gonna take a guess that concussion is being multiplied against some value in the chassis, as iirc, trovaner said something about their being more values in the bot file.

burst motors however, show no relation of sort.

i didn't test rammers. on those, concussion beat piercing when bot are 1:1, but idk if it has the same hp scale effect as spinners.

also of note, you can see how piercing performs compared to concussion when both are 1:1. this machtes up with what 123 and click found.

one thing i can't figure out are my weapon to weapon results, they go against what click and 123 got. despite concussion being much weaker than piercing, concussion almost always wins with both being 1:1. both bots are extremely slow so there shouldn't be a high amount of momentum for concussion to generate. when they're 2:1 like in 2.2 piercing gets destroyed.

idk where to go with this, but i would say piercing weapons aren't as bad as i previously thought. they still seem to lose weapon to weapon, and they really don't deal anymore damage with the 2:1 dp ratio but hey, they're technically better than concussion against plastic 1??????

i do have some other things to mess around with, mainly if piercing/concussion values have a linear or exponential increase with damage, and also double checking if what I found is true

also, heres the threads i was talking about earlier
https://gametechmods.com/forums/tutorials-and-tips/damage/
https://gametechmods.com/forums/tutorials-and-tips/understanding-balance/
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 06:40:32 PM by geese »
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 06:54:38 PM »
ok ignore that last post i figured it out


DUAL MAG/FLAT MOTOR-ESQUE  3.5p vs 7c
-----------------
VS A 50KG BOT


PIERCING
1209
1082
1196
1057
1119

CONCUSSION
1142
1018
1040
1368
1119


VS a 800kg bot w/ a plate

PIERCING
1142
1226
1034
1145
1070

CONCUSSION
1601
1629
1743
1796
1547

-----------------
6 MAG SPEED 3.5p vs 7c


VS 50KG
PIERCNING
3003
3748
3223
3174
3610


CONCUSSION
3521
3746
2750
3142
3831


VS 800KGS
PIERCING
3944
3512
3605
2956
3234

CONCUSSION
4502
4681
5305
4732
4608
4318

the weight of the bot that's being struck is calculated in the concussion equation. the whole "chassis hp scales with concussion is wrong, although technically correct in that heavier armor makes your bot weigh more.

 i guess that makes sense considering it's momentum based but whatever i think i was told differently

bursts show no affect of this still. probably cause they fire the against the floor and hurt """"energy transfer"""" or some sh** idk. they might show a similar affect if they were fired from underneath, but thats like popup sh** and and stuff which usually aren't allowed in irl

conclusions: this sh** is close to impossible to balance for us brainlets

realistic applications: typhoons are the best weapon for their weight, but we all probably knew that already
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline pokebro14

  • Im gonna fix the spaghetti
  • Posts: 1040
  • Rep: 3
  • Watch JoJo's bizzare adventure you Ignoramuses
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2019, 05:10:19 PM »
This can all be resolved by playing RA3

Tbh I think typhoon teeth just look better so even if ripping teeth did more I would probably stick to typhoons
Achievements and tournament placings

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 07:24:07 PM »
This can all be resolved by playing RA3

Tbh I think typhoon teeth just look better so even if ripping teeth did more I would probably stick to typhoons
no. this can call be resolved by joining arc

so tldr,

 I'm actually fairly confident at this point since it matches more up with past results. ofc this is all subject to change

- concussion is boosted by momentum. speed is a part of the momentum calculation

- piercing is boosted by speed. momentum is not used in the calculation

- both use the combined speed/momentum of both bots in collision for calculating their damage

- for concussion, chassis movement > spin motors > bursts in terms of momentum generation

- piercing is best suited towards bursts and spin motors compared to a rammer


rammers, sns, and other momentum bots:

- with the current dp formula, on a rammers or sns, concussion is roughly 4x times as strong as piercing (this is why typhoon rammers are so powerful, they technically have 1050dp)

- the current dp formula does not account for this


bursts:

- concussion values need to be double that of piercing to deal approximately equal damage on bursts (this matches the current dp formula)
- bursts are poor at generating momentum
- bursts are accurate with the dp formula

on spin motors

- piercing is solely based on speed, the mass/momentum has no affect.

- concussion deals more damage when's there's more mass being spun/struck (I suspect that it takes the mass of the the object that's being struck into its equation as momentum is mass*velocity )

- piercing will out damage concussion when both values are 1:1. more mass however can allow concussion to keep up, and even beat piercing weapon to weapon when both values are equal (this goes against what click and 123 found but they probably had different setups see below)

edit: ok i figured it out. with a 6mag, piercing does indeed out damage concussion weapon2weapon when i the typhoons are to 1kg. at 20kgs there is a slight edge towards concussion as speed drops due to the extra weight while momentum stays consistent as momentum is speed*mass i guess idk

- concussion requires more 'bite' than piercing to generate momentum and inflict damage. piercing mean while only requires speed and thus can just grind against other bots to deal damage (see: flails)

- concussion is overall  stronger than piercing with the current dp formula and motors available in 2.2

overall:

- the current dp formula is only accurate in regards to burst motors

- there are way too many variables to simplify both piercing and concussion into a single number such as damage potential

- i would suggest swapping over the majority of weapons to concussion as it would be much easier to balance, and technically more """realistic""" as momentum would be more of a factor.  weapons that are used on over head hammers would be swapped to pure piercing

- damage potential would be split into 3 numbers, burst potential, spin potential, and momentum potential (not these names but you get the idea)

- the formula itself would be redone with 800kgs used as the baseline for concussion. piercing will also be redone with overhead hammers in mind

so yeah that's what i got. probably never gonna happen with the current zoomerbase but stil

if you don't understand any of this I'll make it simple: ban typhoon rammers. they aren't irl
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 04:32:34 AM by geese »
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline Mr. AS

  • TheGloriousCarbideArstotzkanIronsideChaosProtocol
  • *
  • Posts: 7562
  • Rep: 19
    • robotarenagtm
  • Awards BOTM Winner
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2019, 11:34:14 PM »
no. this can call be resolved by joining arc
based

- i would suggest swapping over the majority of weapons to concussion as it would be much easier to balance, and technically more """realistic""" as momentum would be more of a factor.
play retooled
How you make Alarm Clock Pizza is:
Step 1: You buy an alarm clock from the store, and then you have to break it and put it in the sauce.
Step 2: Fold the sauce in 5 slices and put it in the dough.
Step 3: Paint the eggs with a pitcher of a clock showing what time you want to wake up and eat pizza for breakfast.
Step 4: Put the eggs in the dough.
Step 5: Make it flat into a round shape and draw the time you want on it.
Step 6: Put some old steel to prevent other peple from stealing it.
Step 7: Make it flat and cut into 60 slices 1 for each minute in 1 our.
Step 8: Put in the oven set the timer to 30048813.2884 seconds and put the temperature on 'Volcano' setting.
Step 9: If you think it is take to long, then get yor alarm clock and set it to now so that it will ring and you can take it out.
Step 10: Take it out uv the uvin wen it is redy and go to bed. In the morning eat pizza and also eat yor hands bi mistake.

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2019, 11:38:15 PM »
no. this can call be resolved by joining arc
based

- i would suggest swapping over the majority of weapons to concussion as it would be much easier to balance, and technically more """realistic""" as momentum would be more of a factor.
play retooled
must feel good to be (alt) right all along
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.

Offline geese

  • kill me
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • Rep: 22
  • leader of the alt-center
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: ghetto testing weapons
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2019, 04:49:10 PM »
ok so small update with the updated beaters

8 large beaters will de-weapon 4 large typhoons


i suspect this is mainly due to damage fall-off + the dp boost being pure concussion

obviously they're worse on gutrippers, but maybe not since you'll probably be able to convince most zoomer hosts to allow you spam more beaters

(fall-off is wasted damage due to low hp and fracture making all components take two hits to break off. this hurts heavier components when fighting lighter components that have a numerical advantage. )

example: say a 10kg small typhoon with 1000hp left hits a 52kg mech disk with full hp, and 2500 damage is dealt to both sides. the mech disk takes 2500 damage to it's hp, while the typhoon technically only took 1000 points of damage as it only has 1000hp left. now to make things worse, the typhoon still has an extra hit due to fracture causing all components to take two hits to fall off. on the next collision, lets say both weapons deal 2k points of damage, the typhoon finally falls off as 2k is greater than it's fracture, and the mech takes another 2k damage to it's hp as it has enough hp left to take the hit.

in total, a 52kg mech disk took 4k points of damage to break off a 10kg tooth.

this is an extreme example of fall-off, but it does help explain why heavier components always need to have a better kg-efficiency ratio than lighter components (and also why the mech disk isn't as op as people think but that's for another day)

 
I would not leave my children with pretty much anybody that visits this forum.