DSL Balance Pack

[Naryar]

So I was thinking, that we only use 20% of DSL parts, mostly because the 80% not included is crap.

So my idea was a DSL 2.1 balance pack, as DSL3 never got off the ground as much as we expected and DSL2 is still mainstream.

Which would mean just a revamped components folder, somewhat like NAR AI but no new bots.

There will be no new components, no removing of components, and no moving of weights to ensure 100% compatibility with DSL bots.

I will balance first the normal DSL components. Then it will be a rebalancing of all the cheatbot2 components so you could build with cheatbot2 components, replica parts, and it will still be legit in the metagame.

I think I will first start releasing weapons, and then motors, batteries, etc. to scale the release and hopefully get feedback.

What do you think ? Is it worth it or should I do something else ? Interested by being able to use any weapon you want, and making more competitive replicas ?

Or maybe I should do the same thing with Stock...

[Shield]

So I was thinking, that we only use 20% of DSL parts, mostly because the 80% not included is crap.

So my idea was a DSL 2.1 balance pack, as DSL3 never got off the ground as much as we expected and DSL2 is still mainstream.

Which would mean just a revamped components folder, somewhat like NAR AI but no new bots.

There will be no new components, no removing of components, and no moving of weights to ensure 100% compatibility with DSL bots.

I will balance first the normal DSL components. Then it will be a rebalancing of all the cheatbot2 components so you could build with cheatbot2 components, replica parts, and it will still be legit in the metagame.

I think I will first start releasing weapons, and then motors, batteries, etc. to scale the release and hopefully get feedback.

What do you think ? Is it worth it or should I do something else ? Interested by being able to use any weapon you want, and making more competitive replicas ?

Or maybe I should do the same thing with Stock...

pls don't nerf the judgebursts like seriously pls it's the one thing we flipper builders have

also, would you like what i have so far of the judge burst x2? i mean, it's not much, but...

[helloface]

Sounds like it could promote a lot of creativity in IRL builders and add more variety to DSL-S. I like it.

[Naryar]

About flippers, the larger bursts will be powered up. Not the BSG because it's going to be used for popups a lot and popups will be on top of the food chain as always.

Judge burst needs to be balanced because they are OP, it will probably still be quite powerful and just as light but it will probably need a lot of batteries.

I would not change it and restrict the use of it to pure flippers and weaponed flippers, but yeah. It's grounds for cheating and abuse.

[Lemonism]

This sounds like a really good idea to me.

While we're talking about modifying existing DSL components, maybe we could re-do some of the replica components to fix their attachment points, to make them more useful and easier to build with? Obviously we'd have to make new copies of the components so the replicas still worked, but this would be really useful to anyone who wants to use a tornado wedge, for example, and doesn't want to deal with the off-centre attachment point.
I'm just learning to edit the gmfs myself, so soon I might be able to do this bit, if people think it's a good idea.

[Naryar]

This sounds like a really good idea to me.

While we're talking about modifying existing DSL components, maybe we could re-do some of the replica components to fix their attachment points, to make them more useful and easier to build with? Obviously we'd have to make new copies of the components so the replicas still worked, but this would be really useful to anyone who wants to use a tornado wedge, for example, and doesn't want to deal with the off-centre attachment point.
I'm just learning to edit the gmfs myself, so soon I might be able to do this bit, if people think it's a good idea.

That would be good, but I'm not getting into GMF modification. If you want you can change these for me and I can include them into the pack.

Though not so fond of having yet again another duplicate set of components on my pack.

Maybe I should just remove the old components with Stock values, they're useless and who would put his stock bot in DSL ?

[Shield]

About flippers, the larger bursts will be powered up. Not the BSG because it's going to be used for popups a lot and popups will be on top of the food chain as always.

Judge burst needs to be balanced because they are OP, it will probably still be quite powerful and just as light but it will probably need a lot of batteries.

I would not change it and restrict the use of it to pure flippers and weaponed flippers, but yeah. It's grounds for cheating and abuse.

keep in mind here flippers and hammers are quite possibly the only bot types that use judge bursts

flippers can't do damage unless they're weaponed and even then they have very low ADC. Hammers, we don't need to talk about that now do we?

I personally think the 22KG flipper weight is good enough as a nerf, and the fact that sometimes it can STILL havok as heavy as the flipper/wedge may be.

That and, previously built flippers may need to be rebuilt again. I say instead, just make it use Co2 for more realism, AND as a nerf.

i'm just throwing it out there, but at they end of the day, you're making this thing, not me.

[Naryar]

Alright, i've been thinking for a while and here's what I got for extender balance.

First, every stat will come out of an Efficiency value. Like for weapons. Efficiency value depends on weight. It keeps at 60000 from 0 to 7 kg, and will increase after that. As if, a 39 kg component is has twice more efficiency than a 0-7kg one, a 57 kg one thrice more, a 100 kg one around 8 times more.

That's if i don't put an upper limit on efficiency, which I fully intend to do. Maybe 100 kg would be a good idea to stop efficiency growth else the dual perm and beta burst are gonna be OP.


As for the formula of extender and armor HP : it is HP = (Efficiency x Weight)/(150xsqrt(AP Number))

AP number is a number, from 1 to 3, who represents how practical is the component, aka the number and position of AP's. As an example, flippermakers, metal DSL discs and DSL extenders will be 3 (large number of well-placed AP's, do everything component), black DSL discs, drums and skirts with hidden AP's will be 2 (large number of AP's but limited uses), and stuff like plows, ramplates, angled skirts will be 1 (only one AP).

Apart from the math, what it will mean is that flippermakers and hex plates will be less good for armor. However, single-AP, heavy components will be excellent for armor. I have also removed fracture for simplification.

As an example, a 40cm polycarbonate skirt will have 800 HP, while a heavy plow will have nearly 20000 and the 100kg plow will have above 440000 HP, making it nearly invulnerable but you will have used a LOT of mass to do so.

[RedAce]

A modification to re-balance all DSL components to be effective? I'm down for that. It would add variety and  could make some bot types that are useless, actually useful. I feel that it's own metagame with this, in that case, I probably feel it needs it's own tournament to test this out.

Good progress so far.

[Naryar]

Alright, due to positive feedback, this will be a thing.

Will work on extender/armor balance then will give you ideas about weapon balance.

[Scrap Daddy]

This sounds like a really good idea to me.

While we're talking about modifying existing DSL components, maybe we could re-do some of the replica components to fix their attachment points, to make them more useful and easier to build with? Obviously we'd have to make new copies of the components so the replicas still worked, but this would be really useful to anyone who wants to use a tornado wedge, for example, and doesn't want to deal with the off-centre attachment point.
I'm just learning to edit the gmfs myself, so soon I might be able to do this bit, if people think it's a good idea.

I like this idea as well. Balanced replica parts with fixed attachment points would be cool. We should just work from the dsl beta though. right? It would help Click along at least.

Maybe I'll actually release my IRL ai pack.

[Bubbleman]

I like this idea as well.

It may actually get me building again instead of wasting money on other games I really don't need.

[Naryar]

The new 259 disc has 2 piercing, 2.2 concussion and 21239 HP for 45 kg.

Yeah, it has almost the same number of HP than the 45 kg hammer for the same weight and nearly twice the DP.

But then again, 259 disc doesn't benefit from extra KE that being on a spinning extender provides (nor does it get extra KE based on it's size), and it has exactly one niche on the metagame (being installed on a spinner), compared to the hammer who has like three or four. And the hammer's size and shape and far more practical. Also, hammer has no normals.

[123savethewhales]

I thought you already done this.  Or you are redoing it again?

[FOTEPX]

I'm totally down with this. Should spice up the DSL2 Realistic building scene as well. If you could fix a few meshes while you're at it as well, that'd be great - ya don't need to fix all of 'em, but just like, the ones where the meshes don't even meet up with the component itself.

[Naryar]

I thought you already done this.  Or you are redoing it again?

Yes to the second answer.

I'm totally down with this. Should spice up the DSL2 Realistic building scene as well. If you could fix a few meshes while you're at it as well, that'd be great - ya don't need to fix all of 'em, but just like, the ones where the meshes don't even meet up with the component itself.

I'm not fixing any meshes for now. It may just change compatibility.

[Naryar]

so here's what I've been doing so far-



Everything here normally will get in there. Hammers have been largely unmodified (except for the 25kg one having normals removed) because I fear that with my formula they would have been overpowered. Razors are similarly unmodified because they have been found good enough.

Some parts have been boosted due to being woefully average (iron, mace) or sucking (ant blade).

Efficiency depends on weight, it is 60000 from 1 to 7 kg then it increases. Exponentially. It is limited at 600000 efficiency, which is reached above 100 kg (i don't know the exact value).

AP quality depends of the number of AP's the weapon has.

Normal value is 1 for no normals, 1,5 for "deals damage with 4 sides" (like sawblades and discs), 2 for "deals damage with 2 sides" and 1 for "deals damage with 1 side only".

There, normally everything in here will make it in the final version of DSL balance pack.

[Jonzu95]

Looks good. Keep it up guys!

[Lemonism]

Right, since people liked the idea I'm getting to work on the GMFs to fix attachment points, starting with Tornado's wedge. I've already got the attachment point to face the right way but I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this: Where should the attachment point be, at the top of the wedge, or at the centre of the wedge?

Edit: progress so far, if you're interested:

[helloface]

Right, since people liked the idea I'm getting to work on the GMFs to fix attachment points, starting with Tornado's wedge. I've already got the attachment point to face the right way but I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this: Where should the attachment point be, at the top of the wedge, or at the centre of the wedge?

If you can't put multiple APs I would prefer the top.