gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: FOTEPX on June 21, 2018, 08:13:07 PM
-
Yesterday, I reached out to Click with an E-mail, and was promptly laughed at for doing so. Click hasn't shown up in years, why would he respond to an E-mail, of all things?
Just now, he got back to me.
And the message is as follows...
Hi FOTEPX, wow, that's a name I haven't seen in a while. Glad to know
DSL is still going strong on GTM. It's true that I haven't visited GTM
in a long time, but I've been seriously considering a comeback... just
as soon as I have some time. (One reason for my absence is that I've
started an intense PhD program and don't have as much free time as I
used to.) I will have to look deeper in to the mods you linked; maybe
that will be what finally pushes me to come back to GTM, at least for a
while. I'll let you know what I decide.
I'm not too surprised the Mechavore disc turned out overpowered though,
and I would be open to a slight nerf on it. Stat-wise it should be OK,
but the fact that it is all one component is a huge advantage over a
separate disc and teeth. I didn't take that into account when balancing
stuff for 2.2. Maybe give it DP on par with the DSL teeth???
Clickbeetle
So, the main things of note from this are:
1) CLICKBEETLE MIGHT BE RETURNING! Screw your Avalanche returns, this is the real hot news, boyo's.
2) Click is open to nerfing/changing components if they get too OP, and
3) The Mechavore disc's current DP/HP calculations need to be addressed.
So, there's the news, boys. Hot off the press. Discuss away! ^^
-
BBEANS 7! I’m in!
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerd
Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise than you're getting.
Uprep fotepx to 9999999999999999999999999999999999 rep because my bbeans 7 entry will get me on ra2wiki
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.
What this guy said. Although personally I think a better solution is just to educate tourney mods and encourage them not to accept spammy sh**. A set of rules which can change from tournament to tournament is always gonna be a better way of balancing than a hard and fast rebalance IMO because a rebalance can't take into account what other bots might use, and a full on rebalance will just encourage power creep with the second most powerful component becoming the most used, and then the third when that one is nerfed and so on and so on.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.
What this guy said. Although personally I think a better solution is just to educate tourney mods and encourage them not to accept spammy sh**. A set of rules which can change from tournament to tournament is always gonna be a better way of balancing than a hard and fast rebalance IMO because a rebalance can't take into account what other bots might use, and a full on rebalance will just encourage power creep with the second most powerful component becoming the most used, and then the third when that one is nerfed and so on and so on.
So then, it becomes an issue of "where do we draw the line". In my opinion, Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all overpowered. Outside of that, I'm fine with things staying the way they are - three components that are trouble spots, and that's all.
Of course, the community can't decide on what it wants to do, so nothing'll change. What else is new?
-
I personally only use Typhoon teeth because they're one of, if not, the only weapon that has a decent color. All the ugly greys aren't fun to use.
-
It's cool to hear Click might be coming, but speculation can only mean so much to me. And I do gotta agree with a nerf to the Mechavore and Minion Disc. I can kinda see Typhoon teeth being alright, maybe nerf the fracture or hp or something to make the teeth maybe a glass cannon. Does mean if the former two get nerfed, I gotta fix the stats on all those reskinned discs I made throughout the past few months. :rage
-
Is this loss?
-
glad to see Clickbeetle coming back home.
When DSL 2.21?
-
Sounds like good news. It will be nice to see an old admin and notable bot builder back on the forums again, though it depends if he really does return.
-
honestly i think the whole weapons section just needs to get rebalanced as a whole, not just 3 parts
-
honestly i think the whole weapons section just needs to get rebalanced as a whole, not just 3 parts
It would be super cool if we already had a patch by Mr. AS that did exactly that.
-
OUR GOD IS RETURNING
I JOINED IN THE RIGHT GENERATION
-
JESUS **** CLICK IS RETURNING!!!
-
JESUS **** CLICK IS RETURNING!!!
Click said he might return, there's no definite that he will return to Gametechmods. So don't get your hopes up too high if he doesn't show up.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
It's probably that combined with the shape of the tooth, being that it can be applied in any circumstance, I don't think tho it should be given increase weight, but a statistically nerf, given that with a weight increase, you'd have to go back and edit every bot that uses them to fit weightclass.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Sticking with what I said before - Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all problems, because of how easily they can be used, abused and manipulated. Typhoon Teeth are too easy to spam, while Mechavore discs and Minion Discs give absolutely no reason to make your own discs. You'd have the exact same problem if you made a Tombstone or Carbide replica - the only way to make those robots true to life is to make their components OP, therefore throwing the whole game balance out of whack.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start. Then, from here on out, any new reps that get made have CB2 and Non-CB2 variants, with CB2 variants being balanced according to the actual robot's power, and the Non-CB2 being balanced according to DSL-S. I think that'd sort things out - and sure, it'd make CB2 messy, but honestly, DSL CB2 has always been messy.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start.
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start.
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals
Yes, but a 2X multiplier on those 1.5-D normals... I believe? I dunno, my brain might be derping... If 1.5x is still too OP, 1.25X.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.
Sooo... it's more that people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons and ease of placement? That doesn't sound like a nerf is the answer.
Do you have any specific examples of alternatives with "bad" collision mesh? Would "fixing" these help?
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.
Sooo... it's more that people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons and ease of placement? That doesn't sound like a nerf is the answer.
Do you have any specific examples of alternatives with "bad" collision mesh? Would "fixing" these help?
Not just that, but that's an additional issue on top of the balancing problems that they also have.
-
If it was just ease of use and aesthetic choices, that'd be fine, but it's that combined with their ridiculous stats that makes it a problem. It's like if Large Beater Bars had double the DPS they have now.
-
If it was just ease of use and aesthetic choices, that'd be fine, but it's that combined with their ridiculous stats that makes it a problem. It's like if Large Beater Bars had double the DPS they have now.
So where do you you rank the 22kg ripping teeth with 720dp then?
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Sticking with what I said before - Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all problems, because of how easily they can be used, abused and manipulated. Typhoon Teeth are too easy to spam, while Mechavore discs and Minion Discs give absolutely no reason to make your own discs. You'd have the exact same problem if you made a Tombstone or Carbide replica - the only way to make those robots true to life is to make their components OP, therefore throwing the whole game balance out of whack.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start. Then, from here on out, any new reps that get made have CB2 and Non-CB2 variants, with CB2 variants being balanced according to the actual robot's power, and the Non-CB2 being balanced according to DSL-S. I think that'd sort things out - and sure, it'd make CB2 messy, but honestly, DSL CB2 has always been messy.
So, how about the flatmotor?
-
So, how about the flatmotor?
Flatmotor is useful in things such as very light weightclasses and compact drum spinners. Idk if it needs to be changed.
-
So, how about the flatmotor?
Flatmotor is useful in things such as very light weightclasses and compact drum spinners. Idk if it needs to be changed.
I suggest increasing the weight of the current one as this makes low weight classes use the 'slow' version
-
If it was just ease of use and aesthetic choices, that'd be fine, but it's that combined with their ridiculous stats that makes it a problem. It's like if Large Beater Bars had double the DPS they have now.
So where do you you rank the 22kg ripping teeth with 720dp then?
I'd say they're just on the cusp of being a problem, but their lack of ease of use prevents them from being used in DSL-IRL without looking hella goofy. That, and the normals are weirder than the Typhoons.
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Sticking with what I said before - Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all problems, because of how easily they can be used, abused and manipulated. Typhoon Teeth are too easy to spam, while Mechavore discs and Minion Discs give absolutely no reason to make your own discs. You'd have the exact same problem if you made a Tombstone or Carbide replica - the only way to make those robots true to life is to make their components OP, therefore throwing the whole game balance out of whack.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start. Then, from here on out, any new reps that get made have CB2 and Non-CB2 variants, with CB2 variants being balanced according to the actual robot's power, and the Non-CB2 being balanced according to DSL-S. I think that'd sort things out - and sure, it'd make CB2 messy, but honestly, DSL CB2 has always been messy.
So, how about the flatmotor?
Flatmotor should stay CB2. There's no way a motor that small would be able to chuck out the horsepower it offers.
-
Flatmotor should stay CB2. There's no way a motor that small would be able to chuck out the horsepower it offers.
While I agree that the flat should be CB2 (and I'd even go further personally in that I think tournament hosts should stop accepting bots that use it) for the sake of balance, brushless motors exist IRL and kick out buttloads of power at small sizes and low weights.
-
Other motors should be buffed to compete with the flat motor, the flat motor shouldn't be nerfed. And not just in power, the collision meshes of all DSL spin motors are stupidly big and awkward to use. I think Ironforge does well in this regard, and we should look to it for what it did right.
-
Other motors should be buffed to compete with the flat motor, the flat motor shouldn't be nerfed. And not just in power, the collision meshes of all DSL spin motors are stupidly big and awkward to use. I think Ironforge does well in this regard, and we should look to it for what it did right.
I don't mind giving this a shot. What motors're problem areas, in your opinion? (I'm on about the collision meshes, not the stats.)
-
Off the top of my head, the worst is the etek, it's so massive, thick and hard to use compared to its effectiveness. Close behind is the dual perm. The 6mag and to a lesser extent 4mag are too big to use in most designs too, they're limited to generic bar HS or ring spinners; horizontal spinners where the bot is built around the weapon motor. I think the perms could do with a small size downgrade too, and in an ideal case putting a belt drive option onto all existing weapon (and maybe at some point chain drive? idk just spitballing here) motors.
-
You could make the flatmotor non-cb2, if you made the power really low. Never used it, but this would make it like real brushless motors.
-
Right. Here's my personal conclusion:
There's two conflicting schools of thought here - the DSL-S builder, and the DSL-IRL builder. There'd be too much upkeep involved in having both meta's be their own separate mod packs. DSL-IRL originally started off as a spinoff of DSL-S, but has reached a point now where it dwarfs it by a factor of 5. Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.
-
Right. Here's my personal conclusion:
There's two conflicting schools of thought here - the DSL-S builder, and the DSL-IRL builder. There'd be too much upkeep involved in having both meta's be their own separate mod packs. DSL-IRL originally started off as a spinoff of DSL-S, but has reached a point now where it dwarfs it by a factor of 5. Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.
Separate mod.
-
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved
Nobody plays it anyway
-
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved
Nobody plays it anyway
yes officer this comment right here
-
Right. Here's my personal conclusion:
There's two conflicting schools of thought here - the DSL-S builder, and the DSL-IRL builder. There'd be too much upkeep involved in having both meta's be their own separate mod packs. DSL-IRL originally started off as a spinoff of DSL-S, but has reached a point now where it dwarfs it by a factor of 5. Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.
Separate mod.
We already got a separate mod for standard building. It's called Ironforge, look it up.
-
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved
Nobody plays it anyway
not our fault if you can't build efficiently chief :dumb)
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.
I feel like there's lack of teeth/drum components that are durable enough to realistically imitate real spinning weapons, as well as belted motors (etek, twm, etc) for them. Otherwise, DSL is great.
I agree that the Mechavore disks need a slight nerfing, also.
-
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?
Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth. Are those overpowered too?
If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals. The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.
Sooo... it's more that people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons and ease of placement? That doesn't sound like a nerf is the answer.
Do you have any specific examples of alternatives with "bad" collision mesh? Would "fixing" these help?
also note that since youve been gone the forum has done a major shift towards IRL-style building. Many want 'balace' changes to cater to IRL style but due to the nature of IRL in RA2 no one can really agree what balanced is.
whatever the specifics, balancing something for IRL building will make it horribly imbalanced for standard so keep that in mind.
-
Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.
I thought someone tried that already. Y'know, trying to nerf every good part so that IRL had more variety (also maybe to make things look or feel more like OG DSL-S) and remove door hinges? Now, what was his name again? :really_makes_you_think:
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved
Nobody plays it anyway
not our fault if you can't build efficiently chief :dumb)
Reier dunking the children.
-
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved
Nobody plays it anyway
this hurt me