DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response

[FOTEPX]

Yesterday, I reached out to Click with an E-mail, and was promptly laughed at for doing so. Click hasn't shown up in years, why would he respond to an E-mail, of all things?

Just now, he got back to me.

And the message is as follows...
Hi FOTEPX, wow, that's a name I haven't seen in a while.  Glad to know
DSL is still going strong on GTM.  It's true that I haven't visited GTM
in a long time, but I've been seriously considering a comeback... just
as soon as I have some time.  (One reason for my absence is that I've
started an intense PhD program and don't have as much free time as I
used to.)  I will have to look deeper in to the mods you linked; maybe
that will be what finally pushes me to come back to GTM, at least for a
while.  I'll let you know what I decide.

I'm not too surprised the Mechavore disc turned out overpowered though,
and I would be open to a slight nerf on it.  Stat-wise it should be OK,
but the fact that it is all one component is a huge advantage over a
separate disc and teeth.  I didn't take that into account when balancing
stuff for 2.2.  Maybe give it DP on par with the DSL teeth???

Clickbeetle

So, the main things of note from this are:

1) CLICKBEETLE MIGHT BE RETURNING! Screw your Avalanche returns, this is the real hot news, boyo's.

2) Click is open to nerfing/changing components if they get too OP, and

3) The Mechavore disc's current DP/HP calculations need to be addressed.

So, there's the news, boys. Hot off the press. Discuss away! ^^

[Ra2Winner999]

BBEANS 7! I’m in!

[Badger]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.

[Ra2Winner999]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerd

Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise than you're getting.

Uprep fotepx to 9999999999999999999999999999999999 rep because my bbeans 7 entry will get me on ra2wiki

[TheRoboteer]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.

What this guy said. Although personally I think a better solution is just to educate tourney mods and encourage them not to accept spammy sh**. A set of rules which can change from tournament to tournament is always gonna be a better way of balancing than a hard and fast rebalance IMO because a rebalance can't take into account what other bots might use, and a full on rebalance will just encourage power creep with the second most powerful component becoming the most used, and then the third when that one is nerfed and so on and so on.

[FOTEPX]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Glad to hear that Click is still thinking of GTM at least least. The old "you're here forever" mantra really does hold true it seems. Thanks for doing this FOTEPX, you've been doing a lot of work for the community recently and I think you deserve more praise for that than you're getting.

What this guy said. Although personally I think a better solution is just to educate tourney mods and encourage them not to accept spammy sh**. A set of rules which can change from tournament to tournament is always gonna be a better way of balancing than a hard and fast rebalance IMO because a rebalance can't take into account what other bots might use, and a full on rebalance will just encourage power creep with the second most powerful component becoming the most used, and then the third when that one is nerfed and so on and so on.

So then, it becomes an issue of "where do we draw the line". In my opinion, Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all overpowered. Outside of that, I'm fine with things staying the way they are - three components that are trouble spots, and that's all.

Of course, the community can't decide on what it wants to do, so nothing'll change. What else is new?

[Gulden]

I personally only use Typhoon teeth because they're one of, if not, the only weapon that has a decent color.  All the ugly greys aren't fun to use.

[RedAce]

It's cool to hear Click might be coming, but speculation can only mean so much to me.  And I do gotta agree with a nerf to the Mechavore and Minion Disc.  I can kinda see Typhoon teeth being alright, maybe nerf the fracture or hp or something to make the teeth maybe a glass cannon.  Does mean if the former two get nerfed, I gotta fix the stats on all those reskinned discs I made throughout the past few months. 

[pokebro14]

Is this loss?

[WeN]

glad to see Clickbeetle coming back home.

When DSL 2.21?

[Dark-Al]

Sounds like good news. It will be nice to see an old admin and notable bot builder back on the forums again, though it depends if he really does return.

[090901]

honestly i think the whole weapons section just needs to get rebalanced as a whole, not just 3 parts

[Badger]

honestly i think the whole weapons section just needs to get rebalanced as a whole, not just 3 parts

It would be super cool if we already had a patch by Mr. AS that did exactly that.

[moziet]

OUR GOD IS RETURNING

I JOINED IN THE RIGHT GENERATION

[kix]

JESUS **** CLICK IS RETURNING!!!

[Dark-Al]

JESUS **** CLICK IS RETURNING!!!

Click said he might return, there's no definite that he will return to Gametechmods. So don't get your hopes up too high if he doesn't show up.

[Clickbeetle]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.

[Hoppin]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.

It's probably that combined with the shape of the tooth, being that it can be applied in any circumstance, I don't think tho it should be given increase weight, but a statistically nerf, given that with a weight increase, you'd have to go back and edit every bot that uses them to fit weightclass.

[TheRoboteer]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.

The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.

[FOTEPX]

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.

Sticking with what I said before - Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all problems, because of how easily they can be used, abused and manipulated. Typhoon Teeth are too easy to spam, while Mechavore discs and Minion Discs give absolutely no reason to make your own discs. You'd have the exact same problem if you made a Tombstone or Carbide replica - the only way to make those robots true to life is to make their components OP, therefore throwing the whole game balance out of whack.

Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start. Then, from here on out, any new reps that get made have CB2 and Non-CB2 variants, with CB2 variants being balanced according to the actual robot's power, and the Non-CB2 being balanced according to DSL-S. I think that'd sort things out - and sure, it'd make CB2 messy, but honestly, DSL CB2 has always been messy.